Why did Tywin never consider sending Tyrion to the Citadel or the Wall?

[Angel Eyes]

It would get him out of the line of inheritance which Tywin has always wanted, give him something to do with his brain, and it would be harder for him to waste Tywin's money on whores (why Tywin still continues to fund him despite his public disapproval is beyond me).

[Aebram]

Interesting question!  Tywin only had two sons; and when Jaime was tapped for the Kingsguard, he was out of the line of succession. Tywin may have been hanging on to the hope that his other son would mature into someone that he considered worthy of being the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

[Angel Eyes]

13 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Interesting question!  Tywin only had two sons; and when Jaime was tapped for the Kingsguard, he was out of the line of succession. Tywin may have been hanging on to the hope that his other son would mature into someone that he considered worthy of being the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

Not after Tysha he wouldn't. But on the other hand Tywin never seemed to believe that Jaime's vow to the Kingsguard was for life, didn't he pressure him at least once to resign?

Edited July 30, 2023 by Angel Eyes

[Castellan]

Tywin never gave up on Jaime as his heir. His love for him is amazing, Jaime couldn't really alienate him, even when he said 'you are not my father' - he only hurt him. He doesn't seem to have ever actually reproached him for the idiocy of secretly joining the KG and becoming Aerys's hostage.

re Tyrion - Randyl Tarly wouldn't let Sam be a maester  either- and Barbry Dustin or someone made a comment about distrusting maesters, I think because supposedly they have given up their house loyalties but who knew who they really were or served? I think neither Tywin or Randyl would tolerate the idea of their son serving someone else's house.

Tywin must have noted that Tyrion had talents and he made it pretty clear that it was the character he had developed (which was his fault for doing that to him & Tysha) that he wouldn't tolerate. (For that matter, he also wasn't going to see a son and potential heir nabbed by a crofter's daughter.) Tywin made it clear didn't he, that if Tyrion only stood up for himself and acted like a sober and serious member of society he would respect him. And Tyrion found it impossible to respect himself when he knew how much Tywin hated him being a dwarf. ho hum

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Castellan

[Alester Florent]

I think it's hypocrisy as much as anything. Tyrion is Tywin's son and Tywin expects him to be treated by others with the appropriate level of respect as a potential heir to house Lannister, but treats him like shit himself. He obviously recognises that Tyrion has ability, and I think on some level he wants to want to accept Tyrion as his heir, but he can't bring himself to do so because he can't see past what Tyrion is (and that Joanna died giving birth to him).

It doesn't help that Tywin is just a shit father generally. When Genna told him that Tyrion was the most like him of any of his children, it probably upset him so much because he knew on some level she was right. But he doesn't spend any time actually training Tyrion to make the most of his talents or mould his character into someone he can respect, instead subjecting him to a kind of "school of hard knocks" approach where he's punished for what Tywin considers unacceptable behaviour and just kind of assuming that Tyrion will grow into someone he respects as a result... even where the "unacceptable behaviour" is mirroring something Tywin does himself.

It won't help that Tywin is still clearly butthurt over losing his "golden boy" and still pins unrealistic hopes on getting Jaime back as his heir, and maybe on some level by deliberately failing to train Tyrion up properly he's hoping to force the issue.

How much trouble could have been saved, for instance, if Tywin had just taken Tyrion to one side and said "look, son, you can mess about with whores if you like, but you can't be so public about it - you need to maintain a facade of respectability", rather than trying to impose an "absintence-only" policy which Tywin himself doesn't even follow?

[Aebram]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Not after Tysha he wouldn't.

Well, Tyrion was still quite young at that time. Tywin may have thought that the way he punished Tyrion was severe enough to make him change his behavior.

And I agree with Castellan's comparison to Randyll Tarly. It seems that, among the nobility, everyone wants a son who can be a great warrior; other talents such as intelligence are not held in such high esteem. Similarly, Lord Blackwood described his son Hoster as "a bookish boy, I fear." (Dance 48)

[astarkchoice]

Couple of reasons combined

1) tywin like many lords sees service like maesters,septons as beneath great lords and their sons

2) the nights watch still has SOME rep within the 7 kingdoms so theres still some possibility he causes him shame somehow and is far from his control

3) tywins obsession is securing his house both in reputation and real power. He still attempted to marry tyrion off ....from the wiki it seems he aimed for lesser and lesser lords each time! So he still held out some hope of a marriage .. at some point he might even  settle for a knightly house!

4)tywin clearly understands tyrion can be useful when he stops whoring  and drinking for a few hours as evident by the good job he did with the casterly rock sewers! 

5)tywin had kevan so he might assume jamie would need a right hand man to ensure the family stays in line. Kevan followed tywins lead and was competent at handling logistics etc and he probably assumed tyrion couold do likewise for jame (probably moreso as jamie isnt that bright and tyrion is)

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

For the same reason Randyll Tarly didn't want Sam to be a maester at any cost. He didn't want to see a Lannister and of his own children, even the one he hates above all for killing Joanna, to be a servant.

[Angel Eyes]

19 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Couple of reasons combined

1) tywin like many lords sees service like maesters,septons as beneath great lords and their sons

2) the nights watch still has SOME rep within the 7 kingdoms so theres still some possibility he causes him shame somehow and is far from his control

3) tywins obsession is securing his house both in reputation and real power. He still attempted to marry tyrion off ....from the wiki it seems he aimed for lesser and lesser lords each time! So he still held out some hope of a marriage .. at some point he might even  settle for a knightly house!

4)tywin clearly understands tyrion can be useful when he stops whoring  and drinking for a few hours as evident by the good job he did with the casterly rock sewers! 

5)tywin had kevan so he might assume jamie would need a right hand man to ensure the family stays in line. Kevan followed tywins lead and was competent at handling logistics etc and he probably assumed tyrion couold do likewise for jame (probably moreso as jamie isnt that bright and tyrion is)

3. Surprised he didn't find one earlier considering that he allowed Kevan to marry Dorna.

4. Well that's the thing; for all of Tywin's (public) disdain for whores, he never actually stops Tyrion from using his money for them.

[astarkchoice]

23 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

3. Surprised he didn't find one earlier considering that he allowed Kevan to marry Dorna.

4. Well that's the thing; for all of Tywin's (public) disdain for whores, he never actually stops Tyrion from using his money for them.

3) yeah hes cleary seeking someone whol say yes to poor tyrion...unlike most houses they have no motivation to take the cool option of marrying some.rich merchants daughter for a  huge dowry! Im sure he was still trying to find a house thatd say yes to tyrion (hilarious thought  if the clegane sister had survived shed probably be asked)..as we saw with his red wedding fallout plan having an unmarried son spare was handy!!!

4)yeah but its hard to hand out gold then control what its spent on..the funny thing is hed be far  accepted by tyein if he just kept the drunken whoremonger act on the down low...like his old man does!

[John Suburbs]

On 7/29/2023 at 8:00 PM, Angel Eyes said:

It would get him out of the line of inheritance which Tywin has always wanted, give him something to do with his brain, and it would be harder for him to waste Tywin's money on whores (why Tywin still continues to fund him despite his public disapproval is beyond me).

Tyrion was still of value. He could be used for a politically expedient marriage, and/or government position. Contrary to popular opinion, Tywin had fairly high regard for Tyrion, otherwise he never would have made him acting Hand, then Master of Coin.

[astarkchoice]

42 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion was still of value. He could be used for a politically expedient marriage, and/or government position. Contrary to popular opinion, Tywin had fairly high regard for Tyrion, otherwise he never would have made him acting Hand, then Master of Coin.

This 

Sometimes we forget tyrion is smart but even his pov isnt perfect. He  is given the 2nd highest office in the land and all he has to do is ease off the drinking and whoring...had he left shae in the lannister camp his time in kl would have been far far easier

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

This 

Sometimes we forget tyrion is smart but even his pov isnt perfect. He  is given the 2nd highest office in the land and all he has to do is ease off the drinking and whoring...had he left shae in the lannister camp his time in kl would have been far far easier

He didn't even have to give up whoring, just keep it in the brothel like everyone else.

[astarkchoice]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He didn't even have to give up whoring, just keep it in the brothel like everyone else.

Yeah minus shae varys would have been more on edge without something to hold agaisnt him, no silver tounged singer to stress him in the lead up to stannis, one less bitter confrontation with cersei (esp as he threatened to rape tommnen in that one..not so smart in hindsight)  and of course hed have been focused and not lovestruck. Tywin would probably have given him wayy more props for his work

Side note to this 'what if' if he hadnt had shae and was still a drunkenn horndawg (whores or not) hed probably have not resisted sansa

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

He didn't even have to give up whoring, just keep it in the brothel like everyone else.

Exactly. Hardly defending Tywin as a pass time, but people who immediately call him a hypocrite miss the twin facts that he a) makes it very apparent that his issue with Tyrion’s ‘whoring’ is how it looks, how public it is and how that affects house status and b) that he himself goes to great lengths to avoid same. That’s consistency rather than hypocrisy. Except for the irony of his death, which is just one of many comeuppances for the Pride of Tywin Lannister in death.