Balon Greyjoy is such a terrible father

[sifth]

59 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

88ýĢTerrible father yes but i think sometimes the hatred for the guy gets massively overblown.

Hes described as  skilled fearless warrior in his youth , scaling into one of the flint lords towers. Hes said to have killed his1st man reaving in the stepstones...as the ironborn didnt raid westeros back then we.can assume its  was vs the various pirates there.

We know roberts rebellion he and his brothers led the much smaller.then current ironborn fleet into an indecisive battle .vs the shield lords fleet where soon after hes named leader on his fathers death  .

From there he massively bulks up the ironborn fleet  in 3-4 years. 

He leads the 1st rebellion which fails but to be fair had they won at fair isle they probably have been free.  He doed.stit bvjg⁶

The wo5k comes and balon picks what he sees as the softest option Now HOW executes this seemto be either morons or laxlzy as most of warfleet sitting on their asses, theon could make conquest of the norths westen coast easy but is negelected and when he does something unexpected  with winterfell its neglected utterly!

That said hes a terrible dad

He neglects theon  the boy most would see as his heir for about a decade,no ravens, no vists  no drowned men sent to guide him spiritualy(hence he loves whores and drink almost as much as tyrion) and when wot5k comes hes a moral lightweight,blowing in the breeze.!  When his war begins he judges theon harshly from brief meetings and is while he doesnt trust him places him in a postion where he could end balons suprise attack with one raven!!!! He throws away theons expertise with  the north and then ignores his massiveť war ending sucess at winterfell.

Asha he allows delusions of being his heir as shes sharp and a fearless, he uslessly never mentios this to either.of his powerful brothers, brother in law or even to a.general meeting of captains! She takes deepwood motte and his precious heir is left to rot

 

Most of those "accomplishments" seem rather minor in my book. The fact that he didn't even fight in both of his rebellions, honestly makes the guy seem a bit like a coward in my book.

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

Most of those "accomplishments" seem rather minor in my book. The fact that he didn't even fight in both of his rebellions, honestly makes the guy seem a bit like a coward in my book.

He fought in roberts rebellion and hes already described as fearless as both a raider and sailor.

The ironborn fight naval campaigns thus their leader needs to behind the frontlines to coordinate various strong willed captains into an overall strategy. Vic commands the iron fleet of 100 longships but the wiki says theres around 400 more spread among various lords to be commanded and co ordinated!!  

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

 

The ironborn fight naval campaigns thus their leader needs to behind the frontlines to coordinate various strong willed captains into an overall strategy. Vic commands the iron fleet of 100 longships but the wiki says theres around 400 more spread among various lords to be commanded and co ordinated!!  

Not true at all. Euron for example is currently fighting on the front lines with his men. He's not safely staying at Pyke, while his generals do all his fighting for him, the way Balon did.

Edited August 14, 2023 by sifth

[Hugorfonics]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Like @Hugorfonics, I get what you mean. All of Westeros is violent.

Its more then just violent, its awful in pretty much every aspect and while the ironborn are indeed awful, as they are westerosi, some of their traditions are actually good stuff in the long term, which isnt the case in the greenlands. 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yet, just like said all Western culture has sexism, the Ironborn, like some fraternities (or fans of Andrew Tate, or something like that) crank that crap up to 10

So this is just incorrect. Asha commands her own ship where she bows to no man. Shes able to put her name forward in the Kings... although potentially, Queensmoot. How much of this is Asha growing up losing every brother and therefore the princess had to learn to fingerdance I think is a complicated question, however we can look at Catelyn who had no brother, for a bit, and was trained to be a lord but not a warrior. Similarly Ned is baffled at Aryas interests and goals and I think we can safely say that if Margaery had no brothers she would not be Asha.
Did Aeron think that was stupid? Sure, did Asha herself doubt her prospects? Of course, but Balon actually thought that the world he created would be in actuality placed in his daughters hands, and when the election came about there were indeed ironborn actively cheering for female leadership.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Stannis discourages rape, wanton violence, over the top destruction while taking a city by his troops as far as I'm aware.

He promised the city of KL to the whims of a literal pirate, Saan, who had plans of like, well, pirating a metropolis.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

We don't see the same from Eddard, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I mean I dont even know with this guy. Robb did attack the west and came back with a cows and such but that was more for the threat then the destruction, although, whatever that means in the long run.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin (a horrible person) uses rape, burning, and wanton violence as a technique to make his enemies give up.

No hes just a horrible fucking person that was handed the world at birth and utilized atrocity to stay the path.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

. But even, when I compare Tywin, who uses this horrible action as a purpose, do the Ironborn come out looking good. They do these things.....just because. It doesn't even serve a purpose a lot of time. To loot. To murder. Their goal is murdering and burning rather than something else and then using those things to get that goal.

Again this is incorrect. Here its not even that your just buying into the stereotypes but also Balons military deception? Although your also probably of the belief, which is the common flat earth perception around here that Balon lost. Balon won. 

Quote

His thrice-damned sister was sailing her Black Wind north even now, sure to win a castle of her own. Lord Balon had let no word of the hosting escape the Iron Islands, and Theon's bloody work along the Stony Shore would be put down to sea raiders out for plunder. The northmen would not realize their true peril, not until the hammers fell on Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin. And after all is done and won, they will make songs for that bitch Asha, and forget that I was even here.

Balons campaign only stopped at his death, if he wasnt murdered the plot would have been vastly different.

Quote

If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square. "Euron has no interest in Balon's conquests. My nuncle's off chasing dragons."

The goal of Balon, obviously as he talks about all the fucking time, is feudalism warfare. Tywin himself recognized Balons kingdoms as sincerely won from conquest but was a horrible fucking person who couldnt value the idea of an equal partnership, hence the alliance talks stalled till both were murdered. 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 People who worked in concentration camps have been shown to be basically normal people without strange or particularly perverse psychologies, but systems of government, cultures in which widespread death, destruction, and rape are considered....good things, not acceptable things to do to get to your main goal, but ACTUALLY THE MAIN GOAL is just a culture I am not sure you want to spend a lot of time defending. You are both sides-ing the Westeros conversation, lol. The leadership of the Iron Isles are essentially the equivalent of a hate group put into a position of power. 

I have absolutely no idea what the fuck your trying to get across. Concentration camps only have existed in times where widespread death and destruction and rape are the goal. Imperialism and Nazism. And if your trying to say that there is no perverse psychology within itself from working at a concentration camp, then I dont even fucking know. 
The Greyjoys are a hategroup? I guess. The ironborn themselves are super into spreading their own culture and disregarding others, but thats just their specific branch of hateful westerosi. However where the ironborn actually morally exceed the others is by the children of thralls, smallfolk bastards or highborn, as full fledged ironborn able to captain their own ship. Seemingly even the house All Men Despise Us is allegedly founded from the blood of a thrall.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

: Last thing, I promise. Salt wives. Salt wives by themselves are proof that the Iron Islands are the worst. Like...Theon describes it casually that the Ironborn just take slave women and force them into forced marriage with them, where they aren't even respected at all for the rest of their lives....No other culture does this in Westeros (not only legally, but encouraged by your culture)

They all do that! I mean not legally, I suppose, but is stability a bad thing? 
From violent interactions with Pya to ambiguous with Shae to romantic with Ellaria, this does happen everywhere. However where Pya has to thank the gods for being saved by the Kingslayer out of all people Shae was violently strangled to death. Ellaria herself is worried for her childrens fate because their bastards. When she went out with her love she was seated at the kids table by Cersei, while Shae was lucky to be a server. 
Its all mostly wrong although its a bit foreign, for lack of the right word, as well. Ygritte was all like, "I been stolen", to which us and Jon said huh?  But she was, and she didnt view it as a bad thing at all.
Dany threatened to end his whole company but when she saw him, thunderstruck. He in turn was in the stars and pledged his love right then and there. Picked flowers, gave advice, fought and nearly died for her, And when she wakes up in her bed in the morning and Daario is there shes happy, a rare gift in asoiaf. It ends when she gets up because his station and birth is far too down to be seen in matrimony with a Targaryen. 9/10 times its fucked up, but its not always, where it is always everywhere else. I bet Dany and Daario would love to get salt married

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Most of those "accomplishments" seem rather minor in my book. The fact that he didn't even fight in both of his rebellions, honestly makes the guy seem a bit like a coward in my book.

And is very hypocritical from someone who claims to pay the Iron Price and takes his own crown, when he's in truth living from his feudal taxes and lets his family and men do all the "taking" for him.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

Not true at all. Euron for example is currently fighting on the front lines with his men. He's not safely staying at Pyke, while his generals do all his fighting for him, the way Balon did.

Is he? He was there at oldtown for the attempted sneak attack nor is he at the buisness end of the ironfleets assault on mereen

[sifth]

13 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Is he? He was there at oldtown for the attempted sneak attack nor is he at the buisness end of the ironfleets assault on mereen

He’s literally leading his ships against the Redwyne fleet when last we see him. 
 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by sifth

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

So this is just incorrect. Asha commands her own ship where she bows to no man.

Asha is one women. Queen Elizabeth I being a women doesn't suddenly make Tudor England not sexist, neither does Asha leading people make Ironborn suddenly not sexist. Book is very clear that Asha is the exception, not the rule.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Asha is one women. Queen Elizabeth I being a women doesn't suddenly make Tudor England not sexist, neither does Asha leading people make Ironborn suddenly not sexist. Book is very clear that Asha is the exception, not the rule.

And his brothers would clearly prefer for her to do more "womanly" activities and totally against her inheriting Balon's throne. 

[astarkchoice]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

He’s literally leading his ships against the Redwyne fleet when last we see him. 
 

 

Fair enough but he cant be everywhere at once hence vic is leading the iron fleet far away same with balon delegating

. Its a bit of a reach to say a man whos been fearless in his youth ,teens and early adult hood and was at the roberts rebellion battle off shield islands is now suddenly a coward. His wot5k campaign clearly had only.begun 

[Lady Ella]

Yes, Balon is a terrible father. His eldest two sons died in his pointless rebellion. Before they died they used to terrorise their younger brother. I guess Balon was an OK dad to Asha, but we don't know how he treated her before she became the only child left to him.

I understand why he acted the way he did to Theon, but that doesn't excuse his actions. I think the fact that Ned took Theon hostage rather than the king made Balon suspicious of Ned's motives, as well as making it clear how much influence Ned had over the king. I think he saw it as an attempt by the Starks to gain long-term control over the Iron Islands by making Theon "theirs" (i.e. their loyal subordinate), and I also think that that's exactly what it was. Too many readers are blinded by Stark bias.

Robb's and Theon's actions in ACoK just confirm this theory in Balon's mind. Robb letting Theon go must look suspicious to Balon. Why let him go unless you trust him to be loyal and to do your bidding (which is exactly what Robb expects)? Theon shows up and hands over Robb's letter, as bid, even tries to argue a bit in Robb's favour, calls him brother...oops. FYI, Robb's offer to "give" Balon a crown if Balon does what he wants is not an offer to recognise Ironborn independence. It's the complete opposite of that. As Balon rightly says, what is given can be taken away. It's the equivalent of Renly saying "He can even carry on calling himself king, but fealty, that I must have."

So it's understandable that Balon reacts the way he does when he sees his worst fears confirmed. He sees Theon as an agent of the Starks and thus a threat to Ironborn sovereignty (which is why he attacks the Starks, who also happen to be winning the war at this point). As others have said, Theon was also a reminder of his failures. Since these failures essentially cost him three sons, he would rather blame anyone else. Still, this doesn't excuse his actions. He makes his relationship with Theon worse, and he also makes Theon and Asha rivals. I understand why he wanted to make Theon prove himself first before giving him any major responsibilities, but he could have done that without being a jerk. The boy just wanted some love.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Asha is one women. Queen Elizabeth I being a women doesn't suddenly make Tudor England not sexist, neither does Asha leading people make Ironborn suddenly not sexist. Book is very clear that Asha is the exception, not the rule.

Which I addressed. But comparably to the greenlands where I gave examples or like the Ottoman or Spanish Empires, calling them 10x more sexist is incorrect.

2 hours ago, Lady Ella said:

He makes his relationship with Theon worse, and he also makes Theon and Asha rivals. I understand why he wanted to make Theon prove himself first before giving him any major responsibilities, but he could have done that without being a jerk. The boy just wanted some love.

Balon really wanted Asha on the throne though, so that Theon was able to subdue Winterfell and become it's prince and all that jazz was a direct affront to Balons heir. I think the fact that Balon refused to reinforce Theon, like why he gave him a fools job, was because he wanted Asha on the throne as much or equally as much to the North. Which I agree he was really obsessed with because he convoluted his son's jailor with his others sons' killers, which isn't true but it is what it is. 

Although I do agree too that he was worried about outside interference, as his whole career revolved around kicking it out.

Asha I don't think had to be pushed to antagonism though, like Balon or probably way more actually, shes fully invested in the succession and not the war because she doesn't have all that mental baggage from losing ones entire family.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 8/13/2023 at 1:19 AM, Arthur Peres said:

The real question is: Did Balon ever did something decent?

The guy is incompetent in every subject.

As a IB we never see him sail or hear about anything he did... in fact in both of his rebellions he just sat his ass and let his brothers and sons fight his battles. Paying the iron price? nah.

He is a terrible politician, rejecting a natural alliance and trying to join forces with his natural enemies during the war of the 5 kings, starting a major rebellion against Robert without any alliance was also beyong silly. Balon also failed to make a sucessor, he ignored Theon his natural sucessor, and even when told to his face that Asha would not be accepted by the IB he was stuborn in his attempt...

As a parent in Westeros... we never hear of any of his kids having a match, Theon older brothers were savages that beat their younger brother harder than a full grow man like Ned... Asha is a weirdo that went so far on a prank that she tried to seduced her brother. Theon was a fine man when he was with the Starks and then Balon turned him into a mess in two meetings. And he prayed for his son's death...

As a husband, his wife went crazy with grief and he failed to give her basic support that she moved out of the castle to be with her brother.

As a son, the first time his father listened to him, got him killed in the shield islands.

Well yes, he's a decent madman. Though that's not a particularly high bar within the Ironborn and the Greyjoy family. 

[sifth]

55 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Well yes, he's a decent madman. Though that's not a particularly high bar within the Ironborn and the Greyjoy family. 

Sadly even when it comes to being insane, he was outdone by Joffrey, the person who started this mess in the first place.

Edited August 15, 2023 by sifth

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Just now, sifth said:

Sadly even when being insane, he was outdone by Joffrey, the person who started this mess in the first place.

Yes, though at least Joffrey had Tyrion and Tywin to partially rein him in and mitigate the damage he did to his own party, while there was no one to rein in Balon's insanity and stupidity. 

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Yes, though at least Joffrey had Tyrion and Tywin to partially rein him in and mitigate the damage he did to his own party, while there was no one to rein in Balon's insanity and stupidity. 

Fair point, maybe Euron did the world a favor by killing him.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Fair point, maybe Euron did the world a favor by killing him.

Only for the northmen, to help them take back their lands more quickly, as the Ironborn will suffer even more because of Euron than they would have even with Balon's second stupid uprising being crushed.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

With Euron the Ironborn will rise far above where Balon could have ever taken them, and they will crash even harder once the fall inevitably comes.

Though it will be their fault for having chosen to follow these madmen and not opening their eyes and rising in rebellion before it was too late.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:38 PM, Lady Ella said:

Yes, Balon is a terrible father. His eldest two sons died in his pointless rebellion. Before they died they used to terrorise their younger brother. I guess Balon was an OK dad to Asha, but we don't know how he treated her before she became the only child left to him.

I understand why he acted the way he did to Theon, but that doesn't excuse his actions. I think the fact that Ned took Theon hostage rather than the king made Balon suspicious of Ned's motives, as well as making it clear how much influence Ned had over the king. I think he saw it as an attempt by the Starks to gain long-term control over the Iron Islands by making Theon "theirs" (i.e. their loyal subordinate), and I also think that that's exactly what it was. Too many readers are blinded by Stark bias.

Robb's and Theon's actions in ACoK just confirm this theory in Balon's mind. Robb letting Theon go must look suspicious to Balon. Why let him go unless you trust him to be loyal and to do your bidding (which is exactly what Robb expects)? Theon shows up and hands over Robb's letter, as bid, even tries to argue a bit in Robb's favour, calls him brother...oops. FYI, Robb's offer to "give" Balon a crown if Balon does what he wants is not an offer to recognise Ironborn independence. It's the complete opposite of that. As Balon rightly says, what is given can be taken away. It's the equivalent of Renly saying "He can even carry on calling himself king, but fealty, that I must have."

So it's understandable that Balon reacts the way he does when he sees his worst fears confirmed. He sees Theon as an agent of the Starks and thus a threat to Ironborn sovereignty (which is why he attacks the Starks, who also happen to be winning the war at this point). As others have said, Theon was also a reminder of his failures. Since these failures essentially cost him three sons, he would rather blame anyone else. Still, this doesn't excuse his actions. He makes his relationship with Theon worse, and he also makes Theon and Asha rivals. I understand why he wanted to make Theon prove himself first before giving him any major responsibilities, but he could have done that without being a jerk. The boy just wanted some love.

What Robb said was a bit arrogant, but it would have much more bite if he didn't later go hand in glove to Tywin Lannister for recognition.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:55 AM, Hugorfonics said:

And if your trying to say that there is no perverse psychology within itself from working at a concentration camp, then I dont even fucking know. 

I'm not saying it, experts in psychology are saying it. Honestly, you have google too, so I'm not going to do your research for you. However, as a history major, we discussed several studies in which psychologists interviewed/tested ex-soldiers who had worked in concentration camps, and they had shockingly normal brains. The results of the study seemed to suggest that culture, and not evil individuals, was almost entirely responsible for why these people were doing these horrible things. 

So yes, I am saying that...because there are studies that are saying it. Also, hence why the Ironborn culture..is troublesome. It is particularly violent. It is particularly cruel. It is particularly dismissive of others autonomy and even lives. It normalizes a lot of particularly horrible things that cause individuals raised in said culture to do horrible things, and not even realize how horrible what they are doing is. I would argue from Theon's PoV, that is exactly how he reacts. He is surprised by the fact that people don't just fall in line with Ironborn logic. He is surprised that people hate him, he doesn't expect it to happen.