Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@SeanF well said. You only forgot to say that Planetos would be the best place ever if only the greatest and bestest Tywin Lannister were the emperor of the world!

Benioff's father.

One friend told me he's more evil than Tywin (she thinks there is a special place in hell for investment bankers)

Edited August 16, 2023 by SeanF

[frenin]

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Visenya was very ruthless and didn't mind usurping her fanily members to get her son on the throne. There's no reason to think she was either paranoid nor mad nor was she portrayed as a nutcase.

I think those are the traits of one, especially because she was the one who advised Maegor in all things.

 

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

You have no reason to think that the crap D&D came up with re: Dany IS from Martin. What exactly reasons do you think there are to assume it is? Tell me one. 

The ending is Martin's as far as we are told, there is little reason to believe otherwise.

 

12 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

The problem with the Faith was initially caused by Aenys and then exacerbated by Maegor. Visenya didn't necessarily have any input into that decision, although she might have done.

That seems to be the most positive view, a most negative and probably accurate was that she enabled Maegor at rvery step and used her own nephews as collateral, which places her firmly in team "why women should not rule".

[Alester Florent]

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

That seems to be the most positive view, a most negative and probably accurate was that she enabled Maegor at rvery step and used her own nephews as collateral, which places her firmly in team "why women should not rule".

I don't know why it's any more "probably accurate". The evidence is what it is and it could point either way. Which version you choose to believe is largely down to personal preference, but choosing to go the "Visenya is a nutter" route is then your own choice, not something to pin on the author.

In any case, Visenya didn't rule, Maegor did. And Maegor was undoubtedly worse than Visenya. The worst atrocities of his reign were all him, and he got worse after she died. It's hard to argue convincingly that the books are sending a message of "women shouldn't rule" when in one of the purported examples of this, the male alternative to the female ruler is shown as unambiguously worse. The same principle applies with Rhaenyra and Aegon: even if one takes the view that they're both as bad as each other, it's not a damning indictment on the woman.

With Cersei, the contrast is sharper because it's Cersei vs Ned, Cersei vs Tyrion, Cersei vs Tywin, and all of those have qualities of some sort to commend them over Cersei. But for all that Cersei is petty, stupid, spiteful and cruel, she is arguably still a moderating influence on Joffrey, who is all of those things but more. 

I don't like Cersei, and she was always a villain of sorts, but I don't think it's hard to assume that Joffrey's death deeply affected her, and that her instability and paranoia in AFfC, which is when she really shits the bed as a ruler, is in part a reaction to the murder of her (favourite?) child. She's probably suffering from PTSD, apart from anything else. In which case the moral of the story is not "women make bad rulers" but "people with PTSD make bad rulers", and we can see the same with Aegon III. 

I think the easier answer to the idea that AFfC is an argument for why women shouldn't rule, though, is that Cersei isn't intended as a standalone example, but as a counterpart to Dany. (See in particular the "younger and more beautiful queen" obsession; that this likely refers to Daenerys, not Margaery, would be much more obvious than it already is the two had PoVs in the same book*). Remember that AFfC and ADwD were originally conceived as a single book where the juxtaposition between the two would have been chapter by chapter. Dany isn't perfect, but she is learning quickly and managing a febrile situation, and is beloved by her people for her efforts and her good intentions. Cersei learns nothing and creates a febrile situation through her own unnecessary actions, and is hated by her people for her crimes and her selfishness. Indeed, giving Cersei a PoV at all in AFfC may have been with this comparison in mind, so we can see not only what Cersei and Dany are each doing, but what each of them is thinking. 

 

*Yes, I know some also think it refers to Sansa, and I agree that it's not a done deal. But I think the reader is expected to identify that Margaery is a red herring and that Daenerys is the most likely candidate, even if in fact it turns out to be Sansa later. 

[Annara Snow]

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

The ending is Martin's as far as we are told, there is little reason to believe otherwise.

 

We haven't been told any such thing by anyone who would be in the position to know, and have been told the exact opposite by Martin himself.

There's absolutely no reason to think that it's Martin's ending in spite of all the evidence to the contrary including the fact he said it's not, a lot of which has just been cited up thread but you chose to ignore it.

The only reason I can think of at this point for you insisting that, is that you're one of the people who really want it to be true, so you've convinced yourself it is.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Annara Snow

[sifth]

Let's also not pretend that George doesn't change his mind all the time. The original drafts of AFFC and ADWD uncovered last year, show us that in earnest. 

[Annara Snow]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Let's also not pretend that George doesn't change his mind all the time. The original drafts of AFFC and ADWD uncovered last year, show us that in earnest. 

He has said himself that he's changed the fate of one character and given them a new plot in TWOW (a character that the show had killed off or otherwise done something that made it impossible to happen) and he said on his blog when asked about Shireen's death that this was something he had not written yet and "may not even write".

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

He has said himself that he's changed the fate of one character and given them a new plot in TWOW (a character that the show had killed off or otherwise done something that made it impossible to happen) and he said on his blog when asked about Shireen's death that this was something he had not written yet and "may not even write".

It would be more dramatically ironic if it's Monster who gets burned alive, in order to revive Jon Snow, rather than Shireen.  And, Jon Snow has to live with the fact that he condemned Gilly's child to die.

[csuszka1948]

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

Let's also not pretend that George doesn't change his mind all the time. The original drafts of AFFC and ADWD uncovered last year, show us that in earnest. 

 

 

 

 

 

George doesn't change his mind all the time regarding the ending though. In an interview from 2016:

Martin told IGN, "I know the ending in broad strokes but broad strokes are just broad strokes and the devil's in the details. As I write these last two books, I'll be moving towards the endings that I've known since 1991. But many of the fine details might be moved around and changed."

He repeatedly said that he knows the ending of the 5 original key characters, Sansa and the other two main Lannisters.

I don't think he will change his mind on them, but it's quite possible that D&D - notable Lannister fans - did (the ending of Jaime&Cersei is almost certainly different).

Edited August 16, 2023 by csuszka1948

[sifth]

18 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

He has said himself that he's changed the fate of one character and given them a new plot in TWOW (a character that the show had killed off or otherwise done something that made it impossible to happen) and he said on his blog when asked about Shireen's death that this was something he had not written yet and "may not even write".

After the AFFC notes were uncovered, I wonder if it's Victarion. He was suppose to die in his second chapter and Euron was suppose to sail to Essos to meet Dany. Moqorro even feels like a stand in for George, since he's the one who saves Vic's life.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

George doesn't change his mind all the time regarding the ending though. In an interview from 2016:

Martin told IGN, "I know the ending in broad strokes but broad strokes are just broad strokes and the devil's in the details. As I write these last two books, I'll be moving towards the endings that I've known since 1991. But many of the fine details might be moved around and changed."

Just saying the possibility exists. The notes from last year showed us Kevan originally had a completely different faith, than being killed by Varys, for example.

[csuszka1948]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

Just saying the possibility exists. The notes from last year showed us Kevan originally had a completely different faith, than being killed by Varys, for example.

 

I think he refers to the ending of the main POV characters, because ASOIAF is really about the stories of characters.

[Annara Snow]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It would be more dramatically ironic if it's Monster who gets burned alive, in order to revive Jon Snow, rather than Shireen.  And, Jon Snow has to live with the fact that he condemned Gilly's child to die.

I don't think Shireen was supposed to die to revive Jon Snow. Especially since 1) Stannis would not agree to that, and 2) the story is sure not going to be Melisandre and Selyse deciding it on their own, because that would not be interesting or emotional. Selyse is a minor and very unlikable character.

I think his original plan was that Stannis relutantly agrees to burn Shireen because Melisandre believes he is Azor Ahai Reborn and it's a Nissa-Nissa like sactifice to defeat the Others and save the world.

This has been foreshadowed since the first Davos chapters where we first hear the Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa story from Salladhor Saan. Davos thought he could never be a 'hero' if murdering someone you love is required. Stannis doesn't love his wife, but who's the one person he does love? His daughter. He has also shown the willingness to do terrible things in the name of a goal (almost agreeing to burn Edric before Davos changed his mind) - not for dumb reasons like in the show (Ramsay and his 20 Good Men butchered the horses and the weaher was bad!), but f he believed it was to save the world and was his duty, he would do it. Of course, it would not work as he is not really Azor Ahai.

This would've been a very tragic and emotional climax to Stannis' arc... but after seeing GoT spoil it through its incredibly botched version, GRRM may have changed his mind about it.

[csuszka1948]

3 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

This would've been a very tragic and emotional climax to Stannis' arc... but after seeing GoT spoil it through its incredibly botched version, GRRM may have changed his mind about it.

 

 

 

I am pretty sure he won't, why would he?

He won't change his own foreshadowing because people don't like it or because the show botched the execution, because the circumstances are certainly going to be different in the books. Stannis' story is about what someone is willing to sacrifice to do his 'duty', burning his daughter is the natural resolution to his tragedy. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Benioff's father.

One friend told me he's more evil than Tywin (she thinks there is a special place in hell for investment bankers)

Currently she's writing a LOTR fanfic which will feature Benioff Senior as The Mouth of Sauron.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am pretty sure he won't, why would he?

He won't change his own foreshadowing because people don't like it, and Stannis' story is about what someone is willing to sacrifice to do his 'duty', burning his daughter is the natural resolution to his tragedy. The circumstances are certainly going to be different.

The last time we see Stannis he's ordering one of his men to make sure that if he dies, to win the throne for his daughter. That doesn't seem like a man ready to burn his daughter alive to me.

[Annara Snow]

4 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am pretty sure he won't, why would he?

He won't change his own foreshadowing because people don't like it or because the show botched the execution, because the circumstances are certainly going to be different in the books. Stannis' story is about what someone is willing to sacrifice to do his 'duty', burning his daughter is the natural resolution to his tragedy. 

Because he said he might.

"I won't comment on something I have not written yet, and may not write" - GRRM on his blog after that season 5 episode aired, when asked about the fact that D&D said they heard about 'that' - the burning of Shireen - from him.

[csuszka1948]

Just now, sifth said:

The last time we see Stannis he's ordering one of his men to make sure that if he dies, to win the throne for his daughter. That doesn't seem like a man ready to burn his daughter alive to me.

 

 

I don't see how this statement excludes burning his daughter. He is saying that his men should do his duty and crown his daughter and follow her if he dies... but he also feels that he would be willing to sacrifice anyone to do his duty and save the realm:

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty... If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark... Sacrifice... is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Because he said he might.

"I won't comment on something I have not written yet, and may not write" - GRRM on his blog after that season 5 episode aired, when asked about the fact that D&D said they heard about 'that' - the burning of Shireen - from him.

I love how D&D ran right to, "George told us to do that", to try and shift all the blame away from themselves. Such cowards.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't see how this statement excludes burning his daughter. He is saying that his men should do his duty and crown his daughter and follow her if he dies... but he also feels that he would be willing to sacrifice anyone to do his duty and save the realm:

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty... If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark... Sacrifice... is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

You're reaching man, you're reaching. Listen, if you like the burning of the little girl............well that says more about you than it does about me. I'm just saying the possibility of that not happening also exists, given GRRM's track record of changing the faith of supporting characters. I hope we one day get to see what the original drafts for the other books were.

[csuszka1948]

6 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Because he said he might.

"I won't comment on something I have not written yet, and may not write" - GRRM on his blog after that season 5 episode aired, when asked about the fact that D&D said they heard about 'that' - the burning of Shireen - from him.

 

"It wasn't easy for me. I didn't want to give away my books. It's not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and 'hold the door,' and Stannis's decision to burn his daughter. We didn't get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings."