Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[Annara Snow]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

As a purely narrative standpoint, it is incredibly sus that the only four prominent women rulers (Rhaenys died too soon to enact little but that women ought to be beaten just six times) end up invariably all mad, paranoid and prone to mass murder and all serve as a cautionary and the the text's go to Queen is Alysanne who was merely her husband's advisor.

I don't think it is intentional but still leaves a really bad taste.

Which women are you referring to?

The only queens of Westeros in their own right so far have been Rhaenyra (who gets paranoid and does bad things, but so does her rival Aegon II) and Daenerys (a pretender - but also queen in Meereen, more of her later) in the current story. In addition, consorts with considerable power were Visenya, Rhaenys and Alysanne. All of these were very competent - Visenya was ruthless and did controversial/ bad things but there's no reason to think she was mad, and the conquering trio did a lot of mass killing during the Conquest (because duh) but historians don't hold that against Aegon I, so...

Rhaenys was pretty good at diplomacy and PR so to speak, and Alysanne was probably the best monarch the Westeros ever had.

In the current story, the only queen who is mad, bad and dangerous to know, paranoid and prone to murder of innocent people is Cersei.

There's zero reason to think Daenerys is going to go insane and turn into a mad tyrannical mass murderer of innocents. Unless you believe that the GoT nonsense will also happen in the books. Which there's no reason to think.

[Alester Florent]

I guess Lysa Arryn could be added to the list of "nutter queen archetypes". I agree that as a trope it's not actually too prevalent in the novels though.

[frenin]

13 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Which women are you referring to?

Visenya, Rhaenyra, Cersei and Dany.

I barely count Rhaenys because she died too son to have a real legacy and Alysanne did not rule at all, no more than Barth.

I have no reason to believe Dany's arc isn't from Martin.

But womwn in Westeros who hold power, and i mean hold power not simply influencing the ruler, tend to be invariably portrayed as a nutcase.

Visenya's eh questionable things are not really during the conquesy but on the reigns of both Aenys and Maegor anyway.

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

Visenya, Rhaenyra, Cersei and Dany.

I barely count Rhaenys because she died too son to have a real legacy and Alysanne did not rule at all, no more than Barth.

I have no reason to believe Dany's arc isn't from Martin.

But womwn in Westeros who hold power, and i mean hold power not simply influencing the ruler, tend to be invariably portrayed as a nutcase.

Visenya's eh questionable things are not really during the conquesy but on the reigns of both Aenys and Maegor anyway.

While Visenya was doubtless a "hard" woman, I don't think she's a mad queen by any measure. Her counsel to Aenys was to be firmer, which was badly needed. With Maegor, she seems if anything to have been a moderating influence, perhaps protecting Jaehaerys, Alysanne and Alyssa, even to the extent of saving their lives: Maegor got a lot worse after she died. This fits with her "voice of reason" role under Aegon too: ready to remind him of reality when he got a bit overconfident.

Personally, I don't buy that she poisoned Aenys: I think she did her best for him but he just conked out anyway due to his inherently poor constitution. I'm aware that that's controversial though.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

While Visenya was doubtless a "hard" woman, I don't think she's a mad queen by any measure. Her counsel to Aenys was to be firmer, which was badly needed. With Maegor, she seems if anything to have been a moderating influence, perhaps protecting Jaehaerys, Alysanne and Alyssa, even to the extent of saving their lives: Maegor got a lot worse after she died. This fits with her "voice of reason" role under Aegon too: ready to remind him of reality when he got a bit overconfident.

Personally, I don't buy that she poisoned Aenys: I think she did her best for him but he just conked out anyway due to his inherently poor constitution. I'm aware that that's controversial though.

Well, she created the problem with the Faith in the first place, staged a coup, did nothing while her son started kinslaying, kidnapped her daughter in law and her nephews and then Aenys died whilst on her care... the only remaining obstacle to a throne for her son she was determined to get at any price...

[Annara Snow]

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

Visenya, Rhaenyra, Cersei and Dany.

I barely count Rhaenys because she died too son to have a real legacy and Alysanne did not rule at all, no more than Barth.

I have no reason to believe Dany's arc isn't from Martin.

But womwn in Westeros who hold power, and i mean hold power not simply influencing the ruler, tend to be invariably portrayed as a nutcase.

Visenya's eh questionable things are not really during the conquesy but on the reigns of both Aenys and Maegor anyway.

Visenya was very ruthless and didn't mind usurping her fanily members to get her son on the throne. There's no reason to think she was either paranoid nor mad nor was she portrayed as a nutcase.

You have no reason to think that the crap D&D came up with re: Dany IS from Martin. What exactly reasons do you think there are to assume it is? Tell me one. 

The only reason I can think of is that some people want to believe that. But you are implying you don't, so...?

Edited August 15, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Alester Florent]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, she created the problem with the Faith in the first place, staged a coup, did nothing while her son started kinslaying, kidnapped her daughter in law and her nephews and then Aenys died whilst on her care... the only remaining obstacle to a throne for her son she was determined to get at any price...

The problem with the Faith was initially caused by Aenys and then exacerbated by Maegor. Visenya didn't necessarily have any input into that decision, although she might have done.

Aenys's dying under her care may be suspicious, but the guy was always sickly. He was going to die sometime, and we can't always blame the doctor when a patient passes away. It's also notable that he initially got better after she took over his care - and that she didn't recall Maegor before Aenys died. Aenys's relapse happened following news that Aegon was besieged, something she had no part in.  And she had to go and fetch him afterwards (having stayed for Aenys's funeral), which may suggest that Aenys's death wasn't part of her plan and that she was sincerely mourning him. Assuming nervous shock isn't sufficient to account for Aenys's death, for all we know, he was murdered by followers of the Faith, perhaps among his own staff.

She certainly did play a significant role in Maegor's accession over Aegon. Notwithstanding her obvious personal interest, though, arguably the more ruthless and experienced Maegor seemed a preferable choice to resolve the Faith crisis than the embattled Aegon. Or perhaps she brought him back just to have him on hand and his seizing the throne was his own decision.

Maegor didn't start killing his nephews until Aegon rose in rebellion against him, and Visenya played no part that we know of in that campaign. Aegon was killed in battle, too, a battle that he was arguably foolish even to attempt, not murdered in cold blood.

Visenya's taking control of Jaehaerys, Alyssa and Alysanne (she didn't kidnap them, just took over the place they were already living) may be viewed as a hostage situation, but there's no suggestion they were ill-treated and given that she had encouraged Maegor to show mercy to those who had sided with Aegon, her taking them as her wards could equally have been for their own protection (from Maegor or from whoever). That Jaehaerys et al did a runner from Dragonstone after she died may have been because she was no longer holding them there... or because following her death they no longer felt safe there.

It may be noteworthy that the chronicles are not damning of her but leave a lot of ambiguity, with most of the negative stuff being rumour only. If she were truly the crazy evil mastermind behind Maegor, then Jaehaerys would have had a lot of incentive to throw her under the bus for posterity, but Maegor seems to get the blame for all of it. And Jaehaerys would have known her pretty well, at least in her later years.

She is a complicated character who I think defies a simple label. She may well have been the monster but I think there is deliberately an awful lot of room for doubt.

[Alester Florent]

7 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Visenya was very ruthless and didn't mind usurping her fanily members to get her son on the throne. There's no reason to think she was either paranoid nor mad nor was she portrayed as a nutcase.

You have no reason to think that the crap D&D came up with re: Dany IS from Martin. What exactly reasons do you think there are to assume it is? Tell me one. 

The only reason I can think of is that some people want to believe that. But you are implying you don't, so...?

The rumour goes, as I recall it, that GRRM had given D&D a very rough outline of the plot including the ending and the fates of some major characters. D&D may well have mangled it in the telling (probably did) but the end of Dany's arc may well have originated with GRRM.

I seem to remember there being something a bit more concrete out there regarding the kind of stuff GRRM gave D&D, which may shed a bit more light on things.

FWIW, I can see Dany's arc going in that direction. I stopped watching the show after S4 but when I was told about how it ended by unsullied who couldn't believe it, I thought it sounded more like D&D had botched the telling than that the arc itself was implausible. And having caught up on the show now... yeah, it really was incompetently told. I think it suffered from a terrible lack of buildup, so that there was kind of an offscreen face-heel turn at some point for no explicable reason, rather than a steady development into where she ended up, but also Dany Khaleesi had become such a fan icon that I think a lot of people just couldn't cope with it. Kind of a How I Met Your Mother problem, with D&D sticking rigidly to the ending they'd planned and not taking account of the way the planned story had changed since that ending had been devised, leading to something horribly jarring.

[Annara Snow]

32 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The rumour goes, as I recall it, that GRRM had given D&D a very rough outline of the plot including the ending and the fates of some major characters. D&D may well have mangled it in the telling (probably did) but the end of Dany's arc may well have originated with GRRM.

I seem to remember there being something a bit more concrete out there regarding the kind of stuff GRRM gave D&D, which may shed a bit more light on things.

FWIW, I can see Dany's arc going in that direction. I stopped watching the show after S4 but when I was told about how it ended by unsullied who couldn't believe it, I thought it sounded more like D&D had botched the telling than that the arc itself was implausible. And having caught up on the show now... yeah, it really was incompetently told. I think it suffered from a terrible lack of buildup, so that there was kind of an offscreen face-heel turn at some point for no explicable reason, rather than a steady development into where she ended up, but also Dany Khaleesi had become such a fan icon that I think a lot of people just couldn't cope with it. Kind of a How I Met Your Mother problem, with D&D sticking rigidly to the ending they'd planned and not taking account of the way the planned story had changed since that ending had been devised, leading to something horribly jarring.

We all know GRRM gave them an outline around the time they were writing season 3 or 4, I don't remember. The question is, what on Earth makes you think they stuck to it?!

GRRM has made it clear that it's a different ending - some things are similar and some things are different. And it's not like D&D didn't stuck even to the published books. Seasons 5 and 6 had very little to do with AFFC and ADWD.

But there's no way they would drastically change the fates and characterizations of major characters and plots...right? Like, I dunno, having Sansa leave the safety of Vale to marry Ramsay for absolutely no reason and be raped by him? Barristan getting randomly killed by some Sons of the Harpy in an alley so Tyrion can take over his plot? Ellaria being hell bent on revenge, and Doran having mo plans and getting murdeted by Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for being "weak"? Jaime doing the exact opposite of what he does in the books, symbolically choosing her over his Kingsguard honor and then staying loyal to Cersei instead of burning her letter? Lady Stoneheart, Arianne, Young Griff, JonCon not even existing - and Cersei improbably being who Dany faces and even more improbably doesn't immediately beat? Euron being absolutely nothing like book Euron? Varys being a Dany supporter because there's no Young Griff? Jorah saving Dany in the Daznak Pit and also having greyscale because there's no JonCon? Stannis burning Shireen just for supplies and to beat the Boltons and theb losing and getting killed by Brienne after she spent a season looking at a window (it's even theoretically impossible for it to go down like that in the books)? Coldhands being Benjen even though GRRM told his editor "NO"?

D&D were very happy to change and make up stuff even with the published books. And what they especially loved was treating characters as interchangeable. From Gendry-Edric to Sansa-Jeyne Poole to Tyrion-Barristan, Varys-Qyburn (Kevan-Pycelle), Asha/Yara-Victarion and Jorah-JonCon and almost certainly Young Griff-Cersei....oh look at that, they had Dany go mad at the sound of bells (which makes no sense for her) while there's a cut book character who has PTSD from the Battle of the Bells and will almost certainly be in King's Landing when Dany attacks it...what a coincidence! And Cersei actually has been  foreshadowed to be a Mad Queen and be killed by Jaime, but instead he wuws her to the end and they anticlimactically die together, and instead it's Dany who gets killes by her lover/relative....totally a coincidence I'm sure!

And another thing D&D really loved: shock value and "subverting expectations" aka doing illogical plots that were never set up, to surprise the viewers. (Wouldn't it be cool if the Long Night was super short and not the climax of the story, and there was an evil overlord of the Others/White Walkers and we built up his rivalry with Jon...and then he was randomly killed by Arya? Ha I bet no one will see that coming!)

Edited August 16, 2023 by Annara Snow

[sifth]

Bran wont be king and Dany wont go insane and kill everyone.

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Visenya founded the Kingsguard, she is remembered as the best female knight

A warrior is not a knight, and Visenya was well, not a knight too.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It’s an entirely fair criticism of the author that women who hold great power are constantly presented as mad or evil.  That is presented  as an ethical truth in this series.

 I'm not sure that women-in-power are presented anything as like as universally crazy as the original comment would suggest, but in any event it's also worth pointing out that crazy/evil-in-power is not a uniquely female trait in this universe and the male examples exceed the female ones both (significantly) in number and in extent of madness/evil.

For all Cersei's awfulness, when we compare her to Aerys, Maegor, Balon, Euron, Joffrey, she starts looking a lot better. And let's be fair here, she may hate Tyrion and would prefer him dead, but she didn't just murder him the first time he seriously inconvenienced her, unlike a certain sibling I could mention.

[KingAerys_II]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Nymeria, various Summer Isles princesses.... They are of course historical figures, but still. 

I was talking about Westeros. 

Alysanne, Rhaenys outlawed the murder of women accused of adultery, the habit of the Ironborns to steal women, the right of the Lords to rape women of the smallfolk during the first night. Before the Targaryens women's life was very bad in Westeros, in Dorne I don't see this "feminism" some dornishmen proved to be worse than others against women

Edited August 16, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

Maegor took the throne after winning a battle and a trial of 7, he earned his right, Visenya usurped nothing

Edited August 16, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

We all know GRRM gave them an outline around the time they were writing season 3 or 4, I don't remember. The question is, what on Earth makes you think they stuck to it?!

GRRM has made it clear that it's a different ending - some things are similar and some things are different. And it's not like D&D didn't stuck even to the published books. Seasons 5 and 6 had very little to do with AFFC and ADWD.

But there's no way they would drastically change the fates and characterizations of major characters and plots...right? Like, I dunno, having Sansa leave the safety of Vale to marry Ramsay for absolutely no reason and be raped by him? Barristan getting randomly killed by some Sons of the Harpy in an alley so Tyrion can take over his plot? Ellaria being hell bent on revenge, and Doran having mo plans and getting murdeted by Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for being "weak"? Jaime doing the exact opposite of what he does in the books, symbolically choosing her over his Kingsguard honor and then staying loyal to Cersei instead of burning her letter? Lady Stoneheart, Arianne, Young Griff, JonCon not even existing - and Cersei improbably being who Dany faces and even more improbably doesn't immediately beat? Euron being absolutely nothing like book Euron? Varys being a Dany supporter because there's no Young Griff? Jorah saving Dany in the Daznak Pit and also having greyscale because there's no JonCon? Stannis burning Shireen just for supplies and to beat the Boltons and theb losing and getting killed by Brienne after she spent a season looking at a window (it's even theoretically impossible for it to go down like that in the books)? Coldhands being Benjen even though GRRM told his editor "NO"?

D&D were very happy to change and make up stuff even with the published books. And what they especially loved was treating characters as interchangeable. From Gendry-Edric to Sansa-Jeyne Poole to Tyrion-Barristan, Varys-Qyburn (Kevan-Pycelle), Asha/Yara-Victarion and Jorah-JonCon and almost certainly Young Griff-Cersei....oh look at that, they had Dany go mad at the sound of bells (which makes no sense for her) while there's a cut book character who has PTSD from the Battle of the Bells and will almost certainly be in King's Landing when Dany attacks it...what a coincidence! And Cersei actually has been  foreshadowed to be a Mad Queen and be killed by Jaime, but instead he wuws her to the end and they anticlimactically die together, and instead it's Dany who gets killes by her lover/relative....totally a coincidence I'm sure!

And another thing D&D really loved: shock value and "subverting expectations" aka doing illogical plots that were never set up, to surprise the viewers. (Wouldn't it be cool if the Long Night was super short and not the climax of the story, and there was an evil overlord of the Others/White Walkers and we built up his rivalry with Jon...and then he was randomly killed by Arya? Ha I bet no one will see that coming!)

I hope you're right, and I fear @freninis right.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

 I'm not sure that women-in-power are presented anything as like as universally crazy as the original comment would suggest, but in any event it's also worth pointing out that crazy/evil-in-power is not a uniquely female trait in this universe and the male examples exceed the female ones both (significantly) in number and in extent of madness/evil.

For all Cersei's awfulness, when we compare her to Aerys, Maegor, Balon, Euron, Joffrey, she starts looking a lot better. And let's be fair here, she may hate Tyrion and would prefer him dead, but she didn't just murder him the first time he seriously inconvenienced her, unlike a certain sibling I could mention.

No one really handles leadership at all well.  Despite her mistakes, Dany is one of the better leaders in this tale.  I'd be disappointed if the rest of her arc portrayed her descent into being a complete monster.

Edited August 16, 2023 by SeanF

[csuszka1948]

I think GRRM has given an ending to D&D, but it's quite possible that they have drastically changed it.

 

Before season 8 aired, he gave an interview in which he stated that he expect his ending will be similar to the show, and only secondary characters will have differences:

https://winteriscoming.net/2019/04/13/george-rr-martin-ending-not-that-different-from-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/

“I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have,” he said. “But on certain secondary characters there may be big differences.”

However, after season 8, his tone changed towards the show. He admitted that he was completely out of the loop during the last seasons and tends to emphasize that his ending will be very different:

"Over time, however, as he stepped back to focus on his long-delayed next “Thrones” novel, “The Winds of Winter,” Martin grew estranged from the show, which was created by D.B. Weiss and David Benioff.“By Season 5 and 6, and certainly 7 and 8, I was pretty much out of the loop,” Martin said."

When asked why, he said, “I don’t know — you have to ask Dan and David.” (A representative for Weiss and Benioff declined to comment.)

"Martin also said that “The Winds of Winter” — which he conceded is “very, very late” but vowed to finish — diverges from where “Game of Thrones,” the series, went.“My ending will be very different,” he said."

"One thing I can say, in general enough terms that I will not be spoiling anything: not all of the characters who survived until the end of GAME OF THRONES will survive until the end of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, and not all of the characters who died on GAME OF THRONES will die in A SONG OF ICE & FIRE."

that D&D and he had serious creative differences and the experience can be traumatic:

"Speaking about what can be lost in a book-to-screen adaptation, the author admitted: “It can be… traumatic.

“Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don’t match, and you get the famous creative differences thing – that leads to a lot of conflict.”

"DAVID BENIOFF: We don’t get bonus points for being strictly faithful to the books. It doesn’t give us anything extra."

and even said that by the end he didn't even know what was going on:

"But at a certain point, as the show went on I found I had less and less influence until by the end, I really didn’t even know what was going on. Some of these things I watched like everybody else, and ‘oh, okay.’ "

 

D&D said that GRRM told them 3 "holy shit moments": King Bran, Stannis burning Shireen and Hold the Door, that they came up with the idea of Arya killing the Night King in season 6 and the (broad strokes of) the scene of Jon killing Dany in season 3 and they filmed it before the Santa Fe meeting, where GRRM told them his plans.

 

Overall, we cannot really know what else comes from GRRM besides these 3 moments and a few smaller things (R+L=J, Mel's age comes from GRRM, convergence of Jon and Dany are central to the series).

Edited August 16, 2023 by csuszka1948

[sifth]

9 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

 For all Cersei's awfulness, when we compare her to Aerys, Maegor, Balon, Euron, Joffrey, she starts looking a lot better. And let's be fair here, she may hate Tyrion and would prefer him dead, but she didn't just murder him the first time he seriously inconvenienced her, unlike a certain sibling I could mention.

I don't know. Non of those people you mentioned have their own personal headless abomination protecting them.

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think GRRM has given an ending to D&D, but it's quite possible that they have drastically changed it.

 

Before season 8 aired, he gave an interview in which he stated that he expect his ending will be similar to the show, and only secondary characters will have differences:

https://winteriscoming.net/2019/04/13/george-rr-martin-ending-not-that-different-from-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/

“I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have,” he said. “But on certain secondary characters there may be big differences.”

However, after season 8, his tone changed towards the show. He admitted that he was completely out of the loop during the last seasons and tends to emphasize that his ending will be very different:

"Over time, however, as he stepped back to focus on his long-delayed next “Thrones” novel, “The Winds of Winter,” Martin grew estranged from the show, which was created by D.B. Weiss and David Benioff.“By Season 5 and 6, and certainly 7 and 8, I was pretty much out of the loop,” Martin said."

When asked why, he said, “I don’t know — you have to ask Dan and David.” (A representative for Weiss and Benioff declined to comment.)

"Martin also said that “The Winds of Winter” — which he conceded is “very, very late” but vowed to finish — diverges from where “Game of Thrones,” the series, went.“My ending will be very different,” he said."

"One thing I can say, in general enough terms that I will not be spoiling anything: not all of the characters who survived until the end of GAME OF THRONES will survive until the end of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, and not all of the characters who died on GAME OF THRONES will die in A SONG OF ICE & FIRE."

that D&D and he had serious creative differences and the experience can be traumatic:

"Speaking about what can be lost in a book-to-screen adaptation, the author admitted: “It can be… traumatic.

“Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don’t match, and you get the famous creative differences thing – that leads to a lot of conflict.”

"DAVID BENIOFF: We don’t get bonus points for being strictly faithful to the books. It doesn’t give us anything extra."

and even said that by the end he didn't even know what was going on:

"But at a certain point, as the show went on I found I had less and less influence until by the end, I really didn’t even know what was going on. Some of these things I watched like everybody else, and ‘oh, okay.’ "

 

D&D said that GRRM told them 3 "holy shit moments": King Bran, Stannis burning Shireen and Hold the Door, that they came up with the idea of Arya killing the Night King in season 6 and the (broad strokes of) the scene of Jon killing Dany in season 3 and they filmed it before the Santa Fe meeting, where GRRM told them his plans.

 

Overall, we cannot really know what else comes from GRRM besides these 3 moments and a few smaller things (R+L=J, Mel's age comes from GRRM, convergence of Jon and Dany are central to the series).

Benioff said "themes are for 8th grade book reports", but there were thematic changes to the novels that altered the plot of the show.

1. Benioff and Weiss are (to put it mildly) unenthusiastic about people who seek to change  the political status quo in either continent.  Aristocracy is good.  in the East, people like Hizdahr are the voice of reason.

2. Almost all the upper classes are atheists/agnostics, and not just Stannis, as in the books.  None of them cared, when Cersei massacred the country's religious leaders, and destroyed its holiest place.  In the books, religion matters to a lot of characters.  Dany is a pantheist, not an atheist.  Jon cares enough about his religion to refuse Winterfell, if it means destroying the Godswood.  Most characters pray.

3.  On another thread, I called it A Child's Guide to Macchiavelli's Prince.  You get ahead by trusting no one, and betraying all at the  drop of a hat, and you can do all those things without suffering any consequences.  Cersei does that, in the books, and her rule collapses within months.  Whereas, people in Meereen are prepared to fight for Dany's government, even in her absence, and people are willing to march through snow, because they respected Ned Stark.  Both leaders inspired loyalty, among their followers.

4. Following on, the Lannisters and Littlefinger are people to admire and emulate.  The Starks grew up, when they became like them.  By contrast, "honour is stupid".  Ned and Jon were, in the end, a pair of stupid saps, who didn't know how to play The Game.

5.  Winning the Game of Thrones was more important than saving the Continent.  In the end, the Others were made into Monster of the Week.

 

[kissdbyfire]

@SeanF well said. You only forgot to say that Planetos would be the best place ever if only the greatest and bestest Tywin Lannister were the emperor of the world!