Renly was never going to succeed as king

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This doesn't make sense/isn't really fair as a comparison though because Renly has no children. So you can't really compare him to the Starks, because there are actual descendants of Ned left to back, but there are none for Renly. Suppose all the Stark children died. Who would those loyalists back? They'd have no one...

Euhm may I point to Robb's bride Jeyne. We and her mother know she cannot be with child, but the possibility was enough for people remaining loyal to Robb's potential unborn child.

Mace Tyrell and Maergaery didn't bother with that though. Nope. ETA: or maybe that was exactly what Margaery was up to at Bitterbridge, before LF came courting? Maybe that's why she's not a "virgin" anymore... bedded someone to get preggers asap and declare it was Renly's son

Edited September 22, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Craving Peaches]

44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Euhm may I point to Robb's bride Jeyne. We and her mother know she cannot be with child, but the possibility was enough for people remaining loyal to Robb's potential unborn child.

Mace Tyrell and Maergaery didn't bother with that though. Nope. ETA: or maybe that was exactly what Margaery was up to at Bitterbridge, before LF came courting? Maybe that's why she's not a "virgin" anymore... bedded someone to get preggers asap and declare it was Renly's son

I don't think we have enough info to say either way on this. But if Margaery was carrying Renly's child, I don't see why Renly's supporters wouldn't have stayed loyal. Renly having an heir means they don't need to back Stannis or Joffrey.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think we have enough info to say either way on this. But if Margaery was carrying Renly's child, I don't see why Renly's supporters wouldn't have stayed loyal. Renly having an heir means they don't need to back Stannis or Joffrey.

The point here is that nobody who's supposedly such a fan of him even considered it really. Nobody really remotely rallies behind Margaery as potential carrier of Renly's child. But we do see it happen with Jeyne. Heck, Jaime doesn't want Jeyne wed to another man before enough time has passed to prove that Jeyne is not pregnant. Even wedding her off too soon and her ending up pregnant post-Robb's death still risks people claiming that child is not of Jeyne's new planned husband, but Robb's. What Jaime recognizes is that people "want" a Stark to rally behind; that they'd even be willing to claim it of a hypothetical far too young baby to ever be his child. It is this "want" that is absent from Margaery, the Tyrells, and the men Renly was "so popular" with.

No, instead the response is "well what else are we to do now?" or just more mercenary opportunism. Renly's popularty and being loved is more a myth amongst readers imo than it was a myth amongst the 64000 men that joined him as far as Bitterbridge.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:25 AM, Minsc said:

Nah, charisma is probably more important in a feudal society than birth right and birth order.  If one is an unlikable dick than individuals have no problem disposing you even if you are so-called rightful king by birth order.  The History of the English Monarchy is full of examples of birth order and right not being important in determining who followed who as king and efforts to usurp unpopular kings.

And vice versa. Plenty of "popular with the people" monarchs or emperors got axed, while some boring ones who weren't inspiring managed to get to old age.

Edited September 22, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The point here is that nobody who's supposedly such a fan of him even considered it really.

How do we know they didn't consider it? We don't have a POV near any of them at the time shortly after Renly's death. Tyrells for all we know could have wanted it but Margaery wasn't pregnant.

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Euhm may I point to Robb's bride Jeyne. We and her mother know she cannot be with child, but the possibility was enough for people remaining loyal to Robb's potential unborn child.

Mace Tyrell and Maergaery didn't bother with that though. Nope. ETA: or maybe that was exactly what Margaery was up to at Bitterbridge, before LF came courting? Maybe that's why she's not a "virgin" anymore... bedded someone to get preggers asap and declare it was Renly's son

Margaery wouldn't have done that. Part of why they're so loyal to Robb in death, is because of the uniquely dishonorable way that he was defeated imho. Renly's popularity wasn't a myth. It was true and just a fact of the story.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

No, instead the response is "well what else are we to do now?" or just more mercenary opportunism. Renly's popularty and being loved is more a myth amongst readers imo than it was a myth amongst the 64000 men that joined him as far as Bitterbridge.

It boils down to bad writing on George's part. Both the Stormlanders and the Reach lords supporting Renly is hard to swallow. The Stormlords might be technically Renly's bannermen, but both their liege was the hero and warrior king, Robert Baratheon. The idea that they would feel more beholden to Renly's ambitions than Robert's son and chosen successor is very hard to swallow. They can be loyal to Renly as their lord. But why would they be eager to make him king over (the dead bodies of) Robert's children.

That the Reach would consider it a great idea to put any Baratheon on the throne is also hard to swallow. Not just because of their Targaryen leanings in the earlier war ... but also because Renly's ambitions would set a very bad precedent for their own successions. Their younger uncles would get very bad ideas indeed. Mace himself has three uncles.

The idea that Mace's bannermen had no choice but to follow his lead is wrong. They could have stayed at home like the Hightowers effectively did. They could have even declared for Joffrey.

The only way this whole thing makes remotely sense is if Renly was indeed very popular with the people who followed him. For a guy like Mathis Rowan to think that Renly 'the king' the guy needed to be very popular with him ... because by all the laws and customs of Westeros Renly was anything but the king.

You are right that it is odd that nobody hopes or wishes that Margaery might be pregnant. But that could be due to Renly's closest followers knowing the guy likely never slept with her or any woman. Politically, though, the case of Margaery is very different from Jeyne's. Margaery is married to the rightful king whereas Jeyne would be married to somebody else. If Margaery were to give birth to Renly's child as Joffrey's wife it would not be a rallying point for Joffrey's enemies because, officially, it would be Joffrey's child.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

How do we know they didn't consider it? We don't have a POV near any of them at the time shortly after Renly's death. Tyrells for all we know could have wanted it but Margaery wasn't pregnant.

By the actions and choices in forming an alliance with the Lannisters who would make Margaery queen again. LF gives us some insight in the aftermath too.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Mace's bannermen had no choice but to follow his lead is wrong. They could have stayed at home like the Hightowers effectively did. They could have even declared for Joffrey.

Tarly butchering the levies of the Florents at Bitterbridge to prevent them from following Alester Florent's turning to Stannis says otherwise.

The Hightowers are the sole ones with enough might to ignore the call of the banners by the Tyrells.

[Alester Florent]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This doesn't make sense/isn't really fair as a comparison though because Renly has no children. So you can't really compare him to the Starks, because there are actual descendants of Ned left to back, but there are none for Renly. Suppose all the Stark children died. Who would those loyalists back? They'd have no one...

It's also well known who killed Robb (if not necessarily who struck the fatal blow). Antagonism towards the Freys and their Bolton allies is an obvious outlet for residual Stark loyalty. And even then, it doesn't really manifest openly until "Arya's" reappearance or Stannis's arrival with Jon's implicit approval. The northern lords outwardly fall in line with Roose and the Freys even as they bitch about them or mourn Robb.

So far as Renly's men know, the prime suspect for his murder is Brienne, who was at least protected by if not actively abetted by Cat. So breaking for the Starks' enemies, Stannis and Joffrey, makes sense even if they do remain loyal to Renly's memory.

I guess the question is what happens if it turns out Margaery is pregnant after Storm's End. My bet would be that the majority of the Stormlords go back over to Mace (as de facto regent) at the earliest opportunity. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lord Varys]

57 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Tarly butchering the levies of the Florents at Bitterbridge to prevent them from following Alester Florent's turning to Stannis says otherwise.

That is the case of an already assembled army, not Mace and Renly sitting on cushions in Highgarden plotting treason. The idea that Renly and Mace have any legal authority to force both their bannermen to commit the highest of treasons against their will makes no sense. The Reach is not in danger, and the Stormlands are also not in danger from Robert's son and heir. They are not the North or the Riverlands. It also makes little sense that they would want to do this ... but this is what the author wrote. So we have to live with it even if it makes little sense.

Renly could start his campaign because both his bannermen and the Lords of the Reach wanted to follow him. And this is the case because he was popular with them. In fact, he was even more popular with certain Reach people than certain members of House Tyrell, according to Cortnay Penrose. After all, it is quite noteworthy that Mace Tyrell himself, his heir Willas, his second son Garlan, and Mace's uncles and male cousins are actually nowhere to be seen in Renly's army.

57 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The Hightowers are the sole ones with enough might to ignore the call of the banners by the Tyrells.

You are wrong there, the Redwynes also stayed out of the war because Cersei had Paxter's sons as hostages.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Renly and Mace have any legal authority to force both their bannermen to commit the highest of treasons against their will makes no sense.

That’s the essence of feudalism, though. Bannermen are sworn to obey their liege lord, not the king.

[Craving Peaches]

56 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's also well known who killed Robb (if not necessarily who struck the fatal blow).

Yeah, I don't think the two situations are really comparable.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That’s the essence of feudalism, though. Bannermen are sworn to obey their liege lord, not the king.

No, it is not. The king commands them all. They are not sovereign lords, but lords who hold their lands and titles in the name of the king. As Lord Walder tells us, he swore vows to the Iron Throne, too, not just to Riverrun.

If your liege lord has serious and severe grievances with the king - like, say, Robb has at the end of AGoT - then it makes sense that you would support your liege lord in a rebellion. Especially if you feel closer to him than the king.

But not when the youngest brother of the late king shows up, tells you he wants to steal his nephew's throne, and expects you to follow him because he marries the daughter of your liege lord.

In the end it all bottles down to 'do I like the person who tells me to follow them', of course. But this country is still governed by legal principles, so something as blatant and treasonous a power grab as Renly's campaign for the throne is not something many men should feel comfortable with. If Renly can push Joff, Tommen, and Stannis aside as easily as that ... then what is the uncles and younger brothers of all the lords and knights supporting Renly stopping from trying to pull something similar? Nothing. And they wouldn't want that.

How on earth can those men actually think or believe that Renly is 'the king'? That is just hard to swallow. None of those people were wronged, unlike the Riverlords and the Northmen who eventually proclaim Robb king.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think we have enough info to say either way on this. But if Margaery was carrying Renly's child, I don't see why Renly's supporters wouldn't have stayed loyal. Renly having an heir means they don't need to back Stannis or Joffrey.

The thing is, knowing Renly, would he even be able to produce an heir? 

And he would need not only an heir, but a Baratheon-looking one. Otherwise it could easily turn into Cersei’s kids 2.0.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The thing is, knowing Renly, would he even be able to produce an heir? 

I am not fond of hippocras, but if you put a cup of it before me, I'll drink it. Or words to that effect. We don't "know" him well enough to know whether he was so repulsed that he'd be unable to conceive an heir.

 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I am not fond of hippocras, but if you put a cup of it before me, I'll drink it. Or words to that effect. We don't "know" him well enough to know whether he was so repulsed that he'd be unable to conceive an heir.

His brother Stannis knew him much better than we do ... and he is of the opinion that Margaery would die a maiden as Renly's wife. So chances are not so bad the guy would fail at this most important task.

(We can even argue that Stannis' testimony is very believable in this case indeed as we know he showed an indecent interest in the sex life of both his elder brother Robert as well as his sister-in-law Cersei. Could very well be Stannis had a similar interest in Renly sex life - and thus knows a lot more about his little brother than we do.)

20 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The thing is, knowing Renly, would he even be able to produce an heir? 

And he would need not only an heir, but a Baratheon-looking one. Otherwise it could easily turn into Cersei’s kids 2.0.

Hihi, if I were, like, Renly's third cousin or something and wanted his throne I'd undermine his heirs by pointing out his sexuality and slandering him for whatever homosexual relationships he may or may not have even if Margaery's children looked like Renly. After all, he could have put his ward Edric Storm to task plowing the fields that were too muddy for him. Wouldn't that a nice story? As juicy as the twincest and nearly as good as Patches and Selyse (who make a better couple than Stannis and Selyse, to be sure).

Or something to that effect.

Renly's nature is his weak spot, throwing dirt there would stick, and putting your knife there would cut deep indeed.

It would also be very easy in light of Renly's own flimsy claim to the throne. Why not steal the throne again and stop the usurper from handing it to 'his child'?

[Craving Peaches]

44 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The thing is, knowing Renly, would he even be able to produce an heir? 

And he would need not only an heir, but a Baratheon-looking one. Otherwise it could easily turn into Cersei’s kids 2.0.

Given that his comments to Loras imply they hadn't slept together for ages, combined with the fact that he brought Margaery along with him on campaign (which is noted as unusual), I think it is safe to say he was intending to produce an heir. As I've said before, plenty of real-life rulers with Renly's preferences managed.

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

and he is of the opinion that Margaery would die a maiden as Renly's wife.

Stannis says that as a jibe, also it is very hypocritical given Stannis hasn't touched his own wife for at least two years.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Given that his comments to Loras imply they hadn't slept together for ages, combined with the fact that he brought Margaery along with him on campaign (which is noted as unusual), I think it is safe to say he was intending to produce an heir. As I've said before, plenty of real-life rulers with Renly's preferences managed.

Margaery being on the campaign is part of the show. But even that kind of stinks as even Cat realizes. Margaery is just a female version of Androw Farman for Renly and Loras. Loras is Renly's spouse, not Margaery.

And it doesn't even make much sense to discuss this issue - as Margaery and Tyrells themselves actually do swear that Margaery comes as a maiden to both Joffrey and Tommen. That wasn't a condition for those matches, it merely helped with them. Margaery would have been Joff's queen even if they had revealed that Renly and Margaery fucked every night until Renly's death. Because her hand was the price of the alliance. And the Lannister envoy came begging to Highgarden for Tyrell support.

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis says that as a jibe, also it is very hypocritical given Stannis hasn't touched his own wife for at least two years.

Stannis deflowered his wife and fathered a child on her. He did his marital duty.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis deflowered his wife and fathered a child on her. He did his marital duty.

And you have no proof Renly wasn't going to do the same other than some idea (very easily disproven looking at real history) that Renly is somehow incapable of having children just because he is homosexual.