Skahaz mo Kandaq and the Brazen Beasts

[John Suburbs]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:58 PM, sweetsunray said:

Dany's been in Meereen long enough for anyone with eyes and ears at court would know she mostly eats fruit. Whenever she's asked what she wants for food, she asks for some type of fruit. Dany's a fructarian bat in Meereen so to speak. If the locusts were poisoned they were never meant to actually poison Dany whatsoever, because it would have been expected that Dany wouldn't eat them anyway. Instead then it would have been the intent to make Dany believe there was an assassination plot with poison.

Hizdahr has only a few meetings with Dany before he marries her, and I don't believe they eat together once. Same goes for the GG. They have no idea what her eating habits are. 

And you think it's a coincidence that he implores her to eat the locusts and nothing else? If so, I have a wonderful manse in old Valyria I would dearly love to sell you.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Hizdahr has only a few meetings with Dany before he marries her, and I don't believe they eat together once. Same goes for the GG. They have no idea what her eating habits are. 

And you think it's a coincidence that he implores her to eat the locusts and nothing else? If so, I have a wonderful manse in old Valyria I would dearly love to sell you.

Oh that Hizdahr doesn't know her and even after marrying her believes she'll eat those is not something I'll contest. Which is why he's an obvious patsy to me.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh that Hizdahr doesn't know her and even after marrying her believes she'll eat those is not something I'll contest. Which is why he's an obvious patsy to me.

But wouldn't you agree that he has a vested interest in making sure she is not carrying anyone else's child? And that it would be best if she did not become pregnant until at least several months after their wedding, so that no one else can claim it's a bastard?

Furthermore, if he or someone else did want to kill her, wouldn't it make sense to use a much more lethal poison -- one that didn't require ingesting a certain amount based on size or weight or any other factor? There are such poisons, after all. 

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But wouldn't you agree that he has a vested interest in making sure she is not carrying anyone else's child? And that it would be best if she did not become pregnant until at least several months after their wedding, so that no one else can claim it's a bastard?

Nope.

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Furthermore, if he or someone else did want to kill her, wouldn't it make sense to use a much more lethal poison -- one that didn't require ingesting a certain amount based on size or weight or any other factor? There are such poisons, after all. 

I don't think someone wanted to kill her, just make her think it.

[Dofs]

There are two things why I don't really trust Skahaz's words.

First thing that I don't like is the fact that the Brazon Beasts are turning into his own personal army. Given the fact that they always wear masks and are pretty much unchecked means Skahaz can fill it to the brim with his own people.

Secondly, this bit of his dialogue with Barristan seems very odd to me:

Quote

 

"Why?" Doubts gnawed at him. "The Sons had stopped their killing. Hizdahr's peace - "

" - is a sham. Not at first, no. The Yunkai'i were afraid of our queen, of her Unsullied, of her dragons. This land has known dragons before. Yurkhaz zo Yunzak had read his histories, he knew. Hizdahr as well. Why not a peace? Daenerys wanted it, they could see that. Wanted it too much. She should have marched to Astapor." Skahaz moved closer. "That was before. The pit changed all. Daenerys gone, Yurkhaz dead. In place of one old lion, a pack of jackals. Bloodbeard ... that one has no taste for peace. And there is more. Worse. Volantis has launched its fleet against us."

 

Barristan essentially asks why would Hizdahr try to poison Dany and ruin the peace, and Skahaz's answer doesn't really make any sense if you really think about it. The locusts were poisoned before anything happened in the pit. How can Dany's disappearance and Yurkhaz's death be the reason why Hizdahr decided that the piece was a sham after all and poison Dany... before Dany was gone and Yurkhaz died? What does that, and Bloodbeard, and Volantis have to do with the locusts at all? It really looks like Skahaz is trying to dodge the question and confuse Barristan with different unrelated subjects in order to change Barristan's attention. Which he succeeds to do.

This bit especially makes me think that Skahaz is just a good liar and manipulator. 

[Hippocras]

Forgive me for lack of quotes, I think there are too many points made on the thread to tie in, so I will leave you to determine which other posts I am intending to tie into and/or respond to.

1. I think fans get very hung up on loyalty, but GRRM knows that even the most loyal people have their breaking points and their own personal needs and interests to juggle. I don't believe that he believes in pure, unquestioning loyalty so we should not expect it from his characters. Several of the freed slaves worshiped Dany. Many are now disillusioned and struggling to survive. At least some of them, even if not many, are now flipping to bitterness and desire either revenge or personal power. GRRM did not tell us about the breakdown into anarchy in Astapor after Dany left for nothing: He is trying to tell us where things are headed in Meereen.

2. The people of Meereen are not better than the people of Astapor. They have never known anything but a brutal society, where they watch people fight to the death for entertainment. The freed slaves are also not better people than the masters just because they were once slaves. Some learned empathy from the experience and hope for a better world. Others simply want the chance to be Masters now that they are no longer slaves. They have only ever known a society where the biggest brute comes out on top, so some of them are aiming to be Top Boy. Biggest brute. Winner of the pit fight even if it is only for a brief moment of glory.

3. So coming to Shakaz: Please keep in mind that he offered to marry Dany. That is basically a euphemism for ambition in Meereen. He shaved his head, had his family do the same, and offered to marry the new ruler all in an attempt to gain advantage. This of course does not mean that he not genuinely on board with abolishing slavery and implementing Dany's general goals. Ambition and belief can co-exist. We do not know to what extent he is loyal and on board of just putting on a show. But we DO know that his family (Kandaq) has a rivalry with Hizdahr's family (Loraq). That rivalry can exist even if BOTH families are loyal to Daenerys. So I tend to see Shakaz as the leader of one gang, while Hizdahr is the smooth talking representative of another, and their general loyalty to Dany is irrelevant because what is going on between them is gang territorial warfare and family rivalry that predates Dany's conquest of Meereen.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I think fans get very hung up on loyalty, but GRRM knows that even the most loyal people have their breaking points and their own personal needs and interests to juggle.

One prominent exception to this could be Davos. 

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

One prominent exception to this could be Davos. 

Interesting that you bring that up, because he too has his breaking points. Edric Storm would have been burned by now for example if loyalty was the only thing driving Davos. I think Winds will see him diverging significantly from Stannis's orders as well.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Nope.

I don't think someone wanted to kill her, just make her think it.

Really? He's perfectly fine with her bearing someone else's child -- a child who could very well become king after him, displacing his own trueborn sons and handing the throne to the descendants of some commoner?

Make her think about what?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Really? He's perfectly fine with her bearing someone else's child -- a child who could very well become king after him, displacing his own trueborn sons and handing the throne to the descendants of some commoner?

Really? He's been bedding her several times already. Nobody knows she's pregnant. Not even Dany herself. Combine it, and Hizdahr might as well be aborting his own child.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Make her think about what?

Make her think that someone attempted to poison her.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Make her think that someone attempted to poison her.

What would that accomplish if there is no clear suspect, though?

[sweetsunray]

18 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What would that accomplish if there is no clear suspect, though?

Hizdahr is the patsy suspect

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Really? He's been bedding her several times already. Nobody knows she's pregnant. Not even Dany herself. Combine it, and Hizdahr might as well be aborting his own child.

 

Make her think that someone attempted to poison her.

So he's aborting his child. Big deal. This would be a child of questionable parentage anyway. She literally bedded Daario the night before the wedding. As I've already explained, the purpose is to delay any pregnancy so the world will have no cause to suspect it is not his.

It would make her think that her own husband has attempted to poison her. He is the one who pushed her to eat the locusts. Nothing else, just the locusts.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So he's aborting his child. Big deal. This would be a child of questionable parentage anyway. She literally bedded Daario the night before the wedding. As I've already explained, the purpose is to delay any pregnancy so the world will have no cause to suspect it is not his.

Not buying it. Dany didn't ingest any abortificant at the pit. This society has no idea when or how (the inner workings of it) exactly one gets pregnant or gestation time even. Dany's not showing any signs whatsoever. It's illogical and has no textual basis, and I know you cannot provide any allusions or literary evidence for it. Absurd tinfoil case closed for me.

And yes, as I said, Hizdahr is supposed to the patsy suspect. And so yes, the intent is for Dany to suspect him.

Edited October 19, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord Varys]

The idea that the likes of Hizdahr gives a fig about Dany's eating habits is ludicrous. The guy kind of openly lives with a paramour two minutes after Dany is gone and is totally unprepared for Barristan's coup, telling us he is not exactly politically savvy.

Honeyed locusts are a delicacy in Meereen, so the savage conqueror queen better eat them to show she has good taste and accepts the ways of her new people ... as they know the meek girl is likely to do. That they don't (care to) understand her is also evident and obvious from the fact that they actually think the pit fights do interest or entertain her. They don't. They should have known that, too, but they didn't care about that, either. Them deciding to blame the murder on Quentyn Martell also shows they are not exactly great thinkers. Yes, Quentyn's uncle is a notorious poisoner, but Quentyn himself isn't and it would be pretty hard to actually convince people who bothered getting to know the guy to believe he would have been capable of doing it.

But, of course - the plan was to murder Daenerys and then seize power, so it doesn't have to look all the good or believable to subtle observers at court. It is enough if there is some explanation for Dany's murder.

Nobody wants to poison Dany by way of insidiously poisoning her favorite food. They do it publicly, by having Hizdahr push the food on her until she eats it. And that would have likely worked eventually, had Belwas not ended up effectively stealing food which was actually specifically made for Hizdahr, because Hizdahr would have urged Dany again and again to eat or at least try some locusts.

Quentyn might even be blamed to have wanted to poison Hizdahr so Dany would be free again to marry him. It would have been a pretty good and easily believable motive.

It also seems very obvious why they would go with the locusts - to ensure the parties involved and knowing about the plot to poison themselves or other bystanders. It is a very recognizable dish, after all.

Hizdahr is quite obviously no patsy, he actually does like spicy food and he later lies about that to Barristan. He might not be the one who came up with the plan, but he was the one who executed it. If you ask me then the Green Grace, Hizdahr, and Reznak were forced to go through with this poisoning plot at that specific time and place by Yurkhaz zo Yunzak who was sitting there in Daznak's Pit and did not just want to watch some pit fights but also personally attend the poisoning of the Dany. He wanted to watch he faint and retch and die a miserable death.

The Yunkai'i agreed to make peace with the rulers of Meereen on their terms. And it seems quite obvious that getting rid of Daenerys was one of the conditions they had for Hizdahr and his co-conspirators.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Not buying it. Dany didn't ingest any abortificant at the pit. This society has no idea when or how (the inner workings of it) exactly one gets pregnant or gestation time even. Dany's not showing any signs whatsoever. It's illogical and has no textual basis, and I know you cannot provide any allusions or literary evidence for it. Absurd tinfoil case closed for me.

And yes, as I said, Hizdahr is supposed to the patsy suspect. And so yes, the intent is for Dany to suspect him.

Of course they do. If Westerosi have their tansy, then the Meereenese have it as well, or something similar. Preventing or ending pregnancy has been a common practice throughout our history, all over the world. And they most certainly know gestation time, approximately nine moons.

She doesn't have to show any signs. This is just to make sure. And it does have textual basis because the text gives us all kinds of poisons that would kill her, or a grown man, instantly. They would not have to guess at how much per locust based on an assumption of how much she would eat. Just one bite would do it, or one sip of wine, which she most certainly would have. So the evidence is all there. Sometimes the truth can be seen in what is not happening, not what is.

What does it matter if she suspects Hizdahr? What will it change? She has no proof that she was even poisoned, let alone it was him. And she knows full well that if she dumps him then the Harpy returns and the Yunkai attack.

And if the locusts were meant to kill her as you claim, how is she supposed to suspect anyone? So not only do you not have any textual basis, allusions or literary evidence, your whole argument collapses on itself, which is the very definition of illogical.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:42 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

One prominent exception to this could be Davos. 

On 10/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, Hippocras said:

Interesting that you bring that up, because he too has his breaking points. Edric Storm would have been burned by now for example if loyalty was the only thing driving Davos. I think Winds will see him diverging significantly from Stannis's orders as well.

I think Davos is so interesting because he is both unwaveringly loyal and yet somehow also ignoring what Stannis tells him to do at the same time. ...GRRM's talent in writing makes this contradiction somehow make sense. I agrees with you @Hippocras that he will ignore or outright do the opposite of something Stannis tells him to do, but somehow he will seem insanely loyal while doing it. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:42 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What would that accomplish if there is no clear suspect, though?

Well ...if it was Skahaz..then we saw what it accomplished. He took down Hizdahr, put himself back into the position he wanted (on the small council and leader of the Brazen Beasts), and made himself look very important to the current regime in the process. Which is why I think it was Skahaz...whether it was him just taking advantage of Belwas bellyache (I love this theory @Craving Peaches) or it was Skahaz who made it look like the attempt was on Dany or Belwas (if Skahaz knows Belwas loves honey locusts, he could certainly have been the target, and I would guess Skahaz wasn't trying to kill Belwas or Dany, just make it look like HIzdahr was trying to kill them). Anyways, I think however it plays out, Skahaz was the one pulling the strings on this whole plot. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

(I love this theory @Craving Peaches)

Thanks friend 

[Hippocras]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:15 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well ...if it was Skahaz..then we saw what it accomplished. He took down Hizdahr, put himself back into the position he wanted (on the small council and leader of the Brazen Beasts), and made himself look very important to the current regime in the process. Which is why I think it was Skahaz...whether it was him just taking advantage of Belwas bellyache (I love this theory @Craving Peaches) or it was Skahaz who made it look like the attempt was on Dany or Belwas (if Skahaz knows Belwas loves honey locusts, he could certainly have been the target, and I would guess Skahaz wasn't trying to kill Belwas or Dany, just make it look like HIzdahr was trying to kill them). Anyways, I think however it plays out, Skahaz was the one pulling the strings on this whole plot. 

I also think it could have been him.

Which means that the fact that the Brazen Beasts are in charge of the walls of Meereen when the battle starts is a tad concerning. It might be a weird battle, with the Beasts staging a coup AGAINST Dany and Barristan and controlling Meereen's defenses, just as Tyrion turns the sellswords FOR her, Victarion wins the seas, and Barristan takes control of the siege engines. Complete reversal of battle positions maybe.

An interesting detail I just noticed though is that the Tattered Prince provided BB uniforms and supposed password for Quentyn's attempt to claim a dragon. Where did they get the uniforms? The best bet for how uniforms could be acquired is via murder of BB by Sons of the Harpy. So the Tattered Prince may be allied with the SoH, who obtained the expired password when they murdered the former owners of the uniforms?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hippocras