Rhaegar the Overrated

[KingAerys_II]

Ser Barristan Selmy killed Maelys the Monstrous, who was able to kill an horse with a single punch and Steffon father in single combat, Ser Barristan freed Aerys alone, in the current history he killed the Titan Bastard

Arthur Dayne killed the Smiling Knight and the other outlaws. 

Rhaegar defeated Barristan Selmy who wanted to crown Ashara Dayne, he regrets he was not able to defeat Rhaegar, so actually your points have no sense and they are ridiculous, Aerys Kingsguard was one of the best because of Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy, Rhaegar defeated both in the tourneys, the only duel that wounded Robert was the one against Rhaegar

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Rhaegar defeated Barristan Selmy

In joust, not combat.

This is not the same thing.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

your points have no sense and they are ridiculous

says the one who confuse joust and combat.

Learn the difference then come to me.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

the only duel that wounded Robert was the one against Rhaegar

It wasn't a life threatening wound, Robert was pretty much fine and even sent his own maester to treat Barristan's wound.

On the other hand, Rhaegar didn't survive the duel, the Trident remembers.

[Craving Peaches]

Rhaegar abandoned a superior position which had the effect of curtailing the advantage he held in numbers. Rhaegar the idiot squandered his better position and numerical advantage because he thought he was the chosen one. And he died like the fool he was.

[KingAerys_II]

Like it or not, Rhaegar was an excellent warrior and intelligent,those are the words in the book to describe him, I don't think jousting is so different from fighting and probably he trained with Ser Arthur Dayne who was his best friend. 

 

[KingAerys_II]

Tywin was humiliated by a 14 year old boy, and hired the Brave Companions, everyone makes mistakes

[Alester Florent]

41 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Like it or not, Rhaegar was an excellent warrior and intelligent,those are the words in the book to describe him, I don't think jousting is so different from fighting and probably he trained with Ser Arthur Dayne who was his best friend. 

Are those words actually used or are they an extrapolation? Jousting has skill overlap with fighting but it's a sport, like boxing to actual fistfighting or foil fencing to swordfighting. His training with Arthur is speculative.

And like it it not, the first time Rhaegar came up against an opponent of note in actual combat, he got smashed into the floor.

[sifth]

14 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

And like it it not, the first time Rhaegar came up against an opponent of note in actual combat, he got smashed into the floor.

To be fair, Robert in his prime is often considered one of the strongest characters in the series.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

47 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, Robert in his prime is often considered one of the strongest characters in the series.

There is actually a discussion on reddit right now about whether a prime Robert could beat the Mountain. 

I don’t think Robert would win, but he would definitely put up a good fight.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Kal-L]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Are those words actually used or are they an extrapolation? Jousting has skill overlap with fighting but it's a sport, like boxing to actual fistfighting or foil fencing to swordfighting. His training with Arthur is speculative.

And most of all, it's an entirely different activity. In GRRM's world, it's 3/4 based on horse-riding ability, the rest on physical prowess and more specifically on accuracy and ability with the lance. You can train your jousting skills by tilting at rings. That's the reason why a young woman like Lyanna was able to unhorse highly trained knights at Harrenhal.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Kal-L

[Willam Stark]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Like it or not, Rhaegar was an excellent warrior and intelligent

The feats of this excellent warrior are...getting smashed by Robert at the Trident and repaint the river with his blood.

Quite impressive, too bad he didn't survive his prowess.

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

I don't think jousting is so different from fighting

You don't know what jousting is, do you? The aim of a joust is to break the opponent's spear by charging him on horseback and using the momentum of the horse to break the opponent's spear. That doesn't require skill-at-arms but horse-riding skills and accuracy with lance, which is totally different. He was a good rider indeed, but that didn't prevent him from dying.

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

and probably he trained with Ser Arthur Dayne who was his best friend.

Maybe, but Robert is still a better fighter than him.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Willam Stark

[KingAerys_II]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

There is actually a discussion on reddit right now about whether a prime Robert could beat the Mountain. 

I don’t think Robert would win, but he would definitely put up a good fight.

Robert would win, Oberyn defeated the Mountain, I don't think Oberyn could have won against Prime Robert

[KingAerys_II]

Rhaegar was not a killer, he didn't enjoy fighting, he liked books and the harp, Robert was a better fighter but he proved to be one of the worst king and he abused Cersei when drunk

Edited October 6, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Rhaegar was not a killer, he didn't enjoy fighting, he liked books and the harp, Robert was a better fighter but he proved to be one of the worst king and he abused Cersei when drunk

I feel like Robert's kingship is... not underrated, exactly, but unfairly maligned, by the fandom on the whole. As for that matter is Robert as a person.

He was by no means an exemplary king but the worst that can be said about him (as a king at least) is that he was a bit of a spendthrift and arguably let his wife's family amass too much power. The one crisis that came up during his reign he dealt with decisively and effectively. The way in which he came to power should have created great discord: as it is he maintained the peace with Targaryen loyalists throughout his reign. There might have been plots but none of the plotters dared to move against King's Landing while Robert was alive. Arguably, for his reign he was the one thing keeping the lid on things, whether he was aware of it or not.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Robert would win, Oberyn defeated the Mountain, I don't think Oberyn could have won against Prime Robert

I’ve been dreaming of a Westeros-themed Soul Calibur game for years, but that’s not going to happen.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

There is actually a discussion on reddit right now about whether a prime Robert could beat the Mountain. 

I don’t think Robert would win, but he would definitely put up a good fight.

I think peak Robert could have beaten almost anyone. Against Arthur Dayne with Dawn, he probably wouldn't be favourite, but I wouldn't write him off either.

I do wonder how good Gregor actually is/was. He is obviously quite skilled (Sandor's comment about Gregor's lance going where he wants it to) but how much of it is down to brute strength, reach, and his size and reputation pre-emptively frightening opponents into submission. Oberyn, who isn't intimidated by him, and is armed with a weapon that outreaches Gregor's, doesn't seem exceptionally troubled in defeating him (until the grapple), and he wasn't even wearing heavy armour.

While Gregor is still bigger and heavier than Robert, which would give him the advantage in the grapple, Robert's presumably also wearing heavy armour which will help protect against Gregor's main weapon, and is much bigger and stronger than Oberyn, so the mismatch even if Gregor does get hold of him is less apparent.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Alester Florent

[sifth]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

There is actually a discussion on reddit right now about whether a prime Robert could beat the Mountain. 

I don’t think Robert would win, but he would definitely put up a good fight.

I think Robert could take him. Gregor is mostly just a beast, who doesn’t think on his feet. I often wonder how Robert would do against Arthur Dayne.

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think peak Robert could have beaten almost anyone. Against Arthur Dayne with Dawn, he probably wouldn't be favourite, but I wouldn't write him off either.

I do wonder how good Gregor actually is/was. He is obviously quite skilled (Sandor's comment about Gregor's lance going where he wants it to) but how much of it is down to brute strength, reach, and his size and reputation pre-emptively frightening opponents into submission. Oberyn, who isn't intimidated by him, and is armed with a weapon that outreaches Gregor's, doesn't seem exceptionally troubled in defeating him (until the grapple), and he wasn't even wearing heavy armour.

While Gregor is still bigger and heavier than Robert, which would give him the advantage in the grapple, Robert's presumably also wearing heavy armour which will help protect against Gregor's main weapon, and is much bigger and stronger than Oberyn, so the mismatch even if Gregor does get hold of him is less apparent.

I dont know where the idea gregor isnt skilled is comming from. Oberyn does win at a distance but there are some hairy moments and the viper is a very skilled opp whos been prepping for this for time, tyrion even notes gregors first move cleverly  puts the sun at his back and in his opp eyes.

The general impression we are given is the clegane boys childhood was hard unrelenting training even by knight standards, gregor was known even as a teen for brawling  with and rumored  killing of men. The guys well trained and experienced

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

44 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think peak Robert could have beaten almost anyone. Against Arthur Dayne with Dawn, he probably wouldn't be favourite, but I wouldn't write him off either.

By the way, there is a great video on the topic.

 

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

I dont know where the idea gregor isnt skilled is comming from. Oberyn does win at a distance but there are some hairy moments and the viper is a very skilled opp whos been prepping for this for time, tyrion even notes gregors first move cleverly  puts the sun at his back and in his opp eyes.

The general impression we are given is the clegane boys childhood was hard unrelenting training even by knight standards, gregor was known even as a teen for brawling  with and rumored  killing of men. The guys well trained and experienced

I didn't say he wasn't skilled, in fact I even said that he was!

But he may be less skilled than his reputation as more or less the most fearsome knight in Westeros suggests, because of the other factors.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But he may be less skilled than his reputation as more or less the most fearsome knight in Westeros suggests, because of the other factors.

I don't think Gregor is that skilled in the traditional sense of the word, but he makes up for it with his size. It's hard to beat a 7 foot ironclad monstrosity no matter who you are. And I don't think Oberyn would have beaten him if he didn't use a spear.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy