Rhaegar the Overrated

[Craving Peaches]

After a good length of time (five minutes) spent deliberating with myself I have come to the conclusion Rhaegar is heavily overrated both by characters in-universe and out (this is probably a consequence of the former).

1. Rhaegar's Legacy is a complete failure with awful consequences for everyone involved.

Rhaegar's little escapade with Lyanna lead to the torture and death of numerous innocents, loss of almost everything for his family, and a continent wide war which lead to another continent wide war. Rhaegar running off with Lyanna was like Gavrilo Princip shooting Archduke Franz Ferdinand in terms of its consequences. Now I don't buy all that 'ends justify the means stuff' but even if we accept this argument, Rhaegar's means were stupid. There is no attempt to inform anyone of what he was trying to do. He would be an idiot not to see the uproar it would cause. Which brings me on to my next point.

2. Rhaegar makes numerous incompetent decisions.

He decides to side with his idiot psycho father rather than try and work something out with the rebels. His battle plan is so silly I assume he had a messiah complex to make such an idiotic choice to abandon his superior position and the advantage numbers gave him, to do some ridiculous charge thing which really gives the impression he though he was the chosen one. Also, before anyone says 'he knew he was going to die', he didn't, because he tells Jaime he will make changes 'when I return'.

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"When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

3. Rhaegar was showing signs of 'madness', just in a different way.

This might be a controversial point, but I think some of Rhaegar's actions show he was unhinged in some way. He gets 'obsessed' with things a bit too much. It seems very odd to me that he was 'obsessed' with reading and scrolls and all that then says he 'must be a warrior' and is then obsessed with that, there's no explanation other than that he just 'must' do it, which was okay in that first instance but rapidly developed into issues like when he just runs away with Lyanna with no explanation. Even if it is a prophecy thing, it seems a bit abnormal. Also, he has a consistent lack of bothering to explain himself, which is not good. If he was king, would he just go 'It seems I must do X'? That is very arbitrary decision making. The way he acts looks like he feels he is just entitled to act however he wants (a bit like daddy dearest). He does not seem to think through the consequences of his actions. Overall it gives me the impression he was at least somewhat disconnected from reality  (especially combined with the idiotic moves in the Battle of the Trident).

4. All the people who praise Rhaegar are biased sources and their judgement is clouded by nostalgia and a wish for what could have been.

I mean, the main people we see singing Rhaegar's praises are Barristan, a somewhat jaded Kingsguard, Jon Connington, who was literally in love with Rhaegar (and so would almost certainly ignore his flaws as well as exaggerate his good qualities), Jorah when trying to get Daenerys to like him, Daenerys and Viserys who would have every reason to idealise Rhaegar as this great would-be king who was unjustly killed by the Usurper, etc. Remember this Jaime quote:

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The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? 

5. People say he was great but we never actually hear/see anything positive he did.

He never took a stand against his father (unless you count that tournament where he made a massive diplomatic gaffe, and also was that really the one time he could have tried to conspire against his father?). We never see him demonstrate any characteristics that would make him a good ruler. In fact, he demonstrates many to the contrary. Poor diplomatic skills, never bothering to explain himself, poor socialising, trampling over other people's rights and affairs, not paying much attention to reality, etc.

I could go on but I think the point is clear enough.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

We as readers don't know enough about Rhaegar to form a definitive opinion, but given how many characters in the story speak highly of him (particularly those who actually knew him), there definitely has to be something special about him.

[Lee-Sensei]

I think he's a mixed bag and I don't even like him really. He clearly had talents. He was a good warrior, well read (presumably), a great musician and gorgeous, but he also made boneheaded choices that brought destruction to his house and his family. I think part of the reason that he's lionized, is that people saw what became of Robert as he got older and Rhaegar got to die in his prime, even though he screwed up. I do think Rhaegar had the potential to be a good king. Whether he would have lived up to it or not, is anyone's guess.

 

[kissdbyfire]

I agree w/ a lot of what’s in the OP regarding all the mistakes, bad decisions, etc. However, I’m not sure I agree w/ the conclusion that Rhaegar is overrated. Mind you, he could very well be. The point is, we can’t really make that judgement w/o learning more about him and all the circumstances around his alleged bad decisions. 

We’ll only know once we learn more, but I think part of the problem may be in how Rhaegar is written - or has been written so far. It seems to me that Martin wanted to give him these positive traits we hear about from other characters, while still keeping him and everything surrounding certain events very mysterious. And the result is a dichotomy between a guy everyone thinks highly about and a completely self-centred idiot who made one mistake after the other. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

but given how many characters in the story speak highly of him (particularly those who actually knew him)

But most of the characters who do speak highly of him are biased. I mean one of them was head over heels for Rhaegar, that's not exactly a reliable judge on his character.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But most of the characters who do speak highly of him are biased. I mean one of them was head over heels for Rhaegar, that's not exactly a reliable judge on his character.

On the other hand there is Ned, who should hate Rhaegar for supposedly abducting and doing unspeakable things to his sister. But he doesn't.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand there is Ned, who should hate Rhaegar for supposedly abducting and doing unspeakable things to his sister. But he doesn't.

Doesn't say much good about him either though, other than that he didn't visit brothels.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand there is Ned, who should hate Rhaegar for supposedly abducting and doing unspeakable things to his sister. But he doesn't.

Ned doesn't hate the dead, but he compares Rhaegar to the Lannisters at least twice. Once when he's thinking about Robert bringing the Lannisters to justice and another time when he's thinking about how Robert could forgive brave and honest people, but he couldn't forgive Rhaegar, Cersei or Jaime. In that last one, he describes their behaviour as "poison in the dark", which isn't exactly flattering. He also felt that Brandon was too kind to Ltitlefinger by letting him live after interfering in his betrothal. Ned probably just moved on.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

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Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.

It's interesting that Robert seems to know deep down inside that Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar, and is in denial about it most of the time.

[Lee-Sensei]

45 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's interesting that Robert seems to know deep down inside that Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar, and is in denial about it most of the time.

That's doesn't indicate that Robert is in denial about 14 year old Lyanna running off with Rhaegar. It's a statement of fact. That they're both dead and he's alive with Cersei.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That's doesn't indicate that Robert is in denial about 14 year old Lyanna running off with Rhaegar.

I mean, a 14 year old in medieval times isn’t the same as a 14 year old today.

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, a 14 year old in medieval times isn’t the same as a 14 year old today.

Yeah. That's true enough.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

19 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand there is Ned, who should hate Rhaegar for supposedly abducting and doing unspeakable things to his sister. But he doesn't.

What is displayed by Ned is he saves all his hatred for the living , Tywin ,Baelish, Varys and Pycelle .

[csuszka1948]

We don't know what kind of plans Rhaegar had or who he planned to inform, so it's difficult to judge him one way or another.  

However, he certainly couldn't expect Brandon Stark to rush to King's Landing with his companions and demand Rhaegar to come out and die (which is way more stupid than anything Rhaegar has done), nor his father to kill them and Rickard and demand the heads of Robert and Ned. These actions definitely ruined whatever plans Rhaegar had, were more directly responsible for the war than Rhaegar's actions and were pretty much unforeseeable.

Saying that Rhaegar should have foreseen that his actions were going to cause war seems incorrect to me, and almost on the same level as the assertion that Catelyn's "kidnapping" of Tyrion caused the war and the downfall of the Starks. If the Lannisters won the war and Tommen ruled for 50 years, Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion would be certainly viewed as a vile action which kickstarted the war, but we know that the truth is very different. The same might very well get unveiled for Rhaegar. 

 

Yes, Rhaegar believed in prophecies, but prophecies tend to come true in this world. Stannis facing Renly with 5 thousand men and relying on Mel's prophecy to get him through is actually much more 'unhinged' than Rhaegar believing that he will win the Trident.

Edited September 23, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Lee-Sensei]

37 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

We don't know what kind of plans Rhaegar had or who he planned to inform, so it's difficult to judge him one way or another.  

However, he certainly couldn't expect Brandon Stark to rush to King's Landing with his companions and demand Rhaegar to come out and die (which is way more stupid than anything Rhaegar has done), nor his father to kill them and Rickard and demand the heads of Robert and Ned. These actions definitely ruined whatever plans Rhaegar had, were more directly responsible for the war than Rhaegar's actions and were pretty much unforeseeable.

Saying that Rhaegar should have foreseen that his actions were going to cause war seems incorrect to me, and almost on the same level as the assertion that Catelyn's "kidnapping" of Tyrion caused the war and the downfall of the Starks. If the Lannisters won the war and Tommen ruled for 50 years, Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion would be certainly viewed as a vile action which kickstarted the war, but we know that the truth is very different. The same might very well get unveiled for Rhaegar. 

Yes, Rhaegar believed in prophecies, but prophecies tend to come true in this world. Stannis facing Renly with 5 thousand men and relying on Mel's prophecy to get him through is actually much more 'unhinged' than Rhaegar believing that he will win the Trident.

Why not? Brandon was raging and wanted to cut Rhaegar down for crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal? And no. I'm not going to victim blame Brandon. As far as he knew his 14 year old sister was being kidnapped and abused or dead. What he did was dumb, but understandable. Rhaegar is far more responsible for the war than him.

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Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth. (The World of Ice and Fire, The Fall of The Dragons: The Year of the False Spring)

And what Catelyn did with Tyrion isn't at all comparable to what Rhaegar did. Catelyn was trying to get justice for her son. Rhaegar was running off with a betrothed 14 year old while a married father of two.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

29 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Saying that Rhaegar should have foreseen that his actions were going to cause war seems incorrect to me

I suspect that he did/could foresee it, but he didn't care because the prophecy was more important from his point of view. 

[csuszka1948]

43 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Why not? Brandon was raging and wanted to cut Rhaegar down for crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal? And no. I'm not going to victim blame Brandon. As far as he knew his 14 year old sister was being kidnapped and abused or dead. What he did was dumb, but understandable. Rhaegar is far more responsible for the war than him.

We don't know how did Brandon found out in the first place.

Besides, his reaction has made it certain that he won't get the justice he wanted.

43 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

And what Catelyn did with Tyrion isn't at all comparable to what Rhaegar did. Catelyn was trying to get justice for her son. Rhaegar was running off with a betrothed 14 year old while a married father of two.

Or, Rhaegar helped Lyanna to get away from an unwanted forced marriage. We don't know the circumstances, but we can make our guesses.

BTW Cat also didn't take Tyrion hostage because she was trying to get justice for her son, but because Tyrion recognized her. Still, it's unfair to blame her for starting the war. I have brought it up as an example because if the Lannisters won the war (just like Robert defeated the Targaryens) the prevailing narrative would be that Catelyn started the war by kidnapping Tyrion (just like Rhaegar is blamed for kidnapping Lyanna), even though that's not the truth. We don't know the truth about the events behind the Rebellion yet.

Edited September 23, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

49 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I suspect that he did/could foresee it, but he didn't care because the prophecy was more important from his point of view. 

I don't think he foresaw it, but after it broke out, he probably thought he is preordained to win.

I think he took the comet that has shown up the night of Aegon's birth a sign that his son is the prince that was promised and the year of false spring as an indication that the Long Night is soon upon humanity, so he thought that the apocalypse war is soon coming and he is destined to fight in it, so he cannot die in a mere human war.

Edited September 23, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Lee-Sensei]

25 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

We don't know how did Brandon found out in the first place.

Besides, his reaction has made it certain that he won't get the justice he wanted.

Or, Rhaegar helped Lyanna to get away from an unwanted forced marriage. We don't know the circumstances, but we can make our guesses.

BTW Cat also didn't take Tyrion hostage because she was trying to get justice for her son, but because Tyrion recognized her. Still, it's unfair to blame her for starting the war. I have brought it up as an example because if the Lannisters won the war (just like Robert defeated the Targaryens) the prevailing narrative would be that Catelyn started the war by kidnapping Tyrion (just like Rhaegar is blamed for kidnapping Lyanna), even though that's not the truth. We don't know the truth about the events behind the Rebellion yet.

That doesn't matter to me. His anger was justified. I'm not going to victim blame him. Rhaegar was far more responsible.

Everyone get's an arranged marriage in this series. I don't find that a very sympathetic reason personally and in the grand scheme of things, it's better than triggering a continent destroying war. Brandon and Catelyn were in an arranged marriage. Ned and Catelyn were in an arranged marriage. Robb should have just married his Frey giirl. That's just the way things work in Westeros.

More than one thing can be true at once. Catelyn was seen, but she was also trying to get justice for her son. And it is the truth unless Rickard gave her permission to go without telling anyone.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think he foresaw it, but after it broke out, he probably thought he is preordained to win.

I think he took the comet that has shown up the night of Aegon's birth a sign that his son is the prince that was promised and the year of false spring as an indication that the Long Night is soon upon humanity, so he thought that the apocalypse war is soon coming and he is destined to fight in it, so he cannot die in a mere human war.

Yes, I think you're absolutely correct.