Rhaegar the Overrated

[Lee-Sensei]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I also think if there is any revisionism here it would downplay Robert’s anger, not the opposite, since it is supposed to be pro-Robert. 

The historians would see Robert's anger as 100% justified though. In that same section, when they get to the Trdent they mention Rhaegar's "crimes".

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The historians would see Robert's anger as 100% justified though. In that same section, when they get to the Trdent they mention Rhaegar's "crimes".

I see it differently. The way the WB describes it, Brandon totally overreacted and even Ned was clearly displeased. But not Robert, he laughed and said Rhaegar paid Lyanna her due, making him come across as confident and sure of himself. I think that’s a much more flattering look than someone who is angry and “overreacting”. 

[Lee-Sensei]

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see it differently. The way the WB describes it, Brandon totally overreacted and even Ned was clearly displeased. But not Robert, he laughed and said Rhaegar paid Lyanna her due, making him come across as confident and sure of himself. I think that’s a much more flattering look than someone who is angry and “overreacting”. 

Ned being displeased doesn't sound that unlikely to me, although that was probably speculation too. I doubt he'd shown it. Ned seems to resent Littlefinger for interfering in Brandon's betrothal. I think that Robert was just confident and sure of himself though. He had many flaws. I don't think he was lacking in that area though. Robert (like Renly) is described by Ned and Catelyn as having an easy smile in his youth. Laughing it off sounds like something that they would do.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, seems you’re moving the goalposts a bit here.

Umm, no.  The dream is very personal to Ned, and it reflects an important part of Ned's subconcious.  It doesn't mean that it's a literal representation of what occurred at the Harrenhal tourney.

If it was clear that Rhaegar's act of crowning Lyanna was the act of a married man wooing a young underage girl betrothed to another, while his wife sat in attendance, we should expect the following reactions:

1.  Outrage from the Dornish contingent, especially Elia's super protective, hot tempered, brother who we know as in attendance.  Yet not a word of that.

2.  Outrage from his bride Elia.  Yet not only don't we have that, we are privy to a private moment, that probably happened after the tourney where they show no signs of a strain existing from Rhaegar's actions at Harrenhal.

3.  We would not have gotten a muted reaction from Robert who himself is hot tempered and jealous.  Instead he decides to agree to the interpretation that Rhaegar was giving Lyanna her due, while deep down suspecting that Rhaegar was somehow disrespecting him.  If he clearly realized that this was an attempt by Rhaegar to steal his bride from him, his reaction would not be so muted.

4.  The lickspittles who seize on any opportunity to to cast dispersions on Rhaegar would have clearly seized on Rhaegar's inappropriate actions towards Lyanna and against his wife as proof that he's not fit for rule.  Yet even they, don't jump to that conclusion.  Instead they jumpt to the more logical conclusion that Rhaegar was trying to woo the Starks to his side in a conspiracy against his father.

5.  Everyone goes back to a semblance of normality after the tourney, until Lyanna's disappearance.  Something that wouldn't have happend if Rhaegar had clearly been trying to steal Lyanna from Robert.

So no, despite Eddard's dream, it's clear that the nobles of Westeros had not jumped to the conlcusion that Rhaegar was suggesting anything sexually inappropriate towards Lyanna, or he was trying to woo her for himself.  The Worldbook is fairly clear that if the smiles "died" it's because everyone was confused as to why Rheagar crowned her, because it seemingly came out of the blue.

The evidence is that the only person who 100% jumped to the conclusion that Rhaegar made an inappropriate act was Brandon.  And perhaps Eddard, but even that's unclear based on the accounts.  So the question, is why did they come to that conclusion instead of the more logical conclusion that Rhaegar was trying to honor their family by awarding their only sister with the prize of the tourney.

It's kind of why I wish more of you would check out the tourney in Ivanhoe, where it's abundantly clear that's where GRRM drew his inspiration for this tourney.  That tourney makes it clear that this award of love and beauty could have different motivations.  Yes, it could be motivated out of a romantic overture to the recipient, but it's also clear that it can also a political overture trying to win over the family of the recipient.

Since Rhaegar's wife was in attendance, and since Lyanna was underage and betrothed to another, and considering Rhaegar did not have the reputation of a womanizer, the most logical conclusion to be drawn is that Rhaegar was attempting to honor the Stark family.  The confusion undoubtably occurs because no one was expecting it, and the strong negative reaction from the Stark family.

[Craving Peaches]

On the subject of Robert not reacting initially with outward hostility toward Rhaegar, I would like to point out that firstly, what do you expect him to do, start yelling at Rhaegar in front of everyone? Secondly, I also found out about this yesterday:

Quote

Reaction Formation

Reaction formation reduces anxiety by taking up the opposite feeling, impulse, or behavior.3 An example of reaction formation would be treating someone you strongly dislike in an excessively friendly manner in order to hide your true feelings.

Combined with what the Worldbook says, it sounds like Robert was trying to act like it didn't bother him, but inside it obviously did.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

On the subject of Robert not reacting initially with outward hostility toward Rhaegar, I would like to point out that firstly, what do you expect him to do, start yelling at Rhaegar in front of everyone? Secondly, I also found out about this yesterday:

Combined with what the Worldbook says, it sounds like Robert was trying to act like it didn't bother him, but inside it obviously did.

Yeah, that’s my interpretation as well. It is well established in the main novels that Robert laughed easily, a charming  bon vivant, even charismatic. But also passionate and impulsive. The way the WB puts it really makes it clear to me that yes, he was very bothered by it but, unlike Brandon, managed to hide it well in the moment. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

On the subject of Robert not reacting initially with outward hostility toward Rhaegar, I would like to point out that firstly, what do you expect him to do, start yelling at Rhaegar in front of everyone? Secondly, I also found out about this yesterday:

Combined with what the Worldbook says, it sounds like Robert was trying to act like it didn't bother him, but inside it obviously did.

Yes, if it was clear that Rhaegar was making a move on Lyanna, than I do expect him to react like Brandon reacted but moreso.  If nothing else his honor wouild have demanded it.  The only thing is he might have had to wait for Oberyn to be restrained from attacking Rhaegar.

That's what ya'll are completely ignoring.  If Rhaegar's intent was clear the aftermath of Harrenhal would have been much more explisve than just Brandon's temper tantrum.  It's clear that no one quite knew what to make of Rhaegar's gesture.

I understand that most of you have a pretty naive view of these tourneys, that the crowning of a queen of love and beauty has to be some type of romantic gesture or proposal, but that's simply not the case.  And that comes from George's own inspiration behind this tourney in the Ivanhoe tourney.

Depending on the cirdumstance, it's just as likely that someone already attached like Rhaegar would have used the crown to show honor to the recipient or to their family.  The likspittles conclusion was completely understandable given the circumstances.

The problem is, Rheagar never made it clear why he was crowning her.  I think it's very likely that his silence might be because he determined that Lyanna was the mystery knight and he was honoring her secret.  But he still wanted to give her an honor for her actions.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, if it was clear that Rhaegar was making a move on Lyanna, than I do expect him to react like Brandon reacted but moreso.  If nothing else his honor wouild have demanded it.  The only thing is he might have had to wait for Oberyn to be restrained from attacking Rhaegar.

That's what ya'll are completely ignoring.  If Rhaegar's intent was clear the aftermath of Harrenhal would have been much more explisve than just Brandon's temper tantrum.  It's clear that no one quite knew what to make of Rhaegar's gesture.

I understand that most of you have a pretty naive view of these tourneys, that the crowning of a queen of love and beauty has to be some type of romantic gesture or proposal, but that's simply not the case.  And that comes from George's own inspiration behind this tourney in the Ivanhoe tourney.

Everyone here is merely speculating, and I think just about everyone has acknowledged that. We know not every tourney crowning is romantic, but many are. We have good reason to believe Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna was a romantic gesture since he ran away with her just months later. But I don't think anyone here is attempting to treat it as fact or canon. It's not naivety, it's just speculation and going off what we feel matches with the context of this mysterious story.

We know it bothered Robert, but not everyone is going to react strongly like Brandon because everyone is different.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, if it was clear that Rhaegar was making a move on Lyanna, than I do expect him to react like Brandon reacted but moreso.  If nothing else his honor wouild have demanded it.  The only thing is he might have had to wait for Oberyn to be restrained from attacking Rhaegar.

No one has claimed that Rhaegar “was making a move on Lyanna”; not that I’ve seen anyway. And since no one has made that claim, I’m not sure what Oberyn has to do w/ this specific discussion.

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's what ya'll are completely ignoring.  If Rhaegar's intent was clear the aftermath of Harrenhal would have been much more explisve than just Brandon's temper tantrum.  It's clear that no one quite knew what to make of Rhaegar's gesture.

The fact that some of us have a different opinion than yours doesn’t mean we’re ignoring anything, it only means we have a different opinion. And again, I don’t recall anyone here saying Rhaegar’s intentions were clear, so I’m not sure what you’re on about. 

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I understand that most of you have a pretty naive view of these tourneys, that the crowning of a queen of love and beauty has to be some type of romantic gesture or proposal, but that's simply not the case.  And that comes from George's own inspiration behind this tourney in the Ivanhoe tourney.

There really is no need for such condescension. People having different opinions doesn’t mean anything other than people having different opinions. 
As to the tourney in Ivanhoe, the one time I’m aware of Martin talking about it is when he is explaining tourney rules. And when he specifically talks about Ivanhoe and his version of it, this is what he says: 

At Ashford, instead of the single elimination, I went with your basic IVANHOE champions-against-challengers format, which suited the story better (I wanted Dunk to have to risk all he had going up against one of five champions, rather than simply drawing an opponent by lot, and maybe catching a break. If the champions are as formidable as the Fair Maid's were at Ashford, the challengers face a much more difficult task than if they stand to draw any foe in the field). And I confess, I have always loved the scene in IVANHOE where the Disinherited Knight rides down the line and knocks down all five Norman shields, and wanted to do my version thereof.

It seems to be that, even though he’s talking about the Ashford tourney in D&E, one thing he really liked and really wanted to have a version of his own is the mystery knight calling out the 3 squires from the Harrenhal Tourney. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I understand that most of you have a pretty naive view of these tourneys,

I'm sorry but we are following both what the Worldbook literally says and what the text implies - Robert was upset but tried to pretend he wasn't. Him not reacting to Rhaegar like Brandon doesn't mean he wasn't offended. People can express anger in different ways, you know. And it would have been stupid for him to make any display of aggression towards Rhaegar with Aerys there.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, the way Yandel tells the story makes it clear that Robert's displeasure is mostly an interpretation from hindsight, i.e. post-Rebellion. Harrenhal got a completely different meaning with the Lyanna-Rhaegar issue and the subsequent war. Even Robert himself would have interpreted the coronation differently after Lya ended up with Rhaegar.

The idea that all the feelings Robert had (or Brandon had when he rode to KL) were actually felt back at Harrenhal is just bad conjecture, people pretending that the characters could see the future.

As I said above somewhere, Yandel's claim that Robert nurtured a secret grievance against Rhaegar after the coronation might very well be true ... but if this was the case then there must have been some more substance to such feelings than just the coronation thing. Because that is clearly not something that could and would only be interpreted as a romantic or sexual gesture. Especially in light of Rhaegar already being married and a father and nearly ten years older than Lyanna.

That crowning women the queen of love and beauty is usually not seen as knights sucking up to women romantically we can actually simply conclude from Barristan thinking that he would have crowned Ashara Dayne had he won. If there is a general romantic or sexual undertone to that thing the Kingsguard would not be allowed to do this since they not allowed to have sex or to marry.

Robert's feelings - and Brandon's, I think - would thus be more influenced by circumstances around that event. By Lya's reaction to it, by Rhaegar's earlier and later talks with Lyanna, by their general interaction throughout the entire tourney. Later the coronation would be the event symbolizing all that in Robert's memory, but in itself it is pretty meaningless.

[Craving Peaches]

On the subject of Ned's dream, I would like to point out that in the earlier portion of the dream, Ned is able to point out when things are as they were 'in life' and when they are warped by the dream. So I think there is reliable information in the first part. As @kissdbyfire says, it is only at the end where obviously surreal things (storm of rose petals etc.) start happening that the fever seems to be taking hold - this is so obviously part of the dream there is no need for the author to point it out. Also, just because one part of the dream isn't real, doesn't suddenly invalidate the whole dream. The Bible says the Hittites exist, which they did, but that doesn't suddenly make the Bible's claims about other things also true.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, the way Yandel tells the story makes it clear that Robert's displeasure is mostly an interpretation from hindsight, i.e. post-Rebellion. Harrenhal got a completely different meaning with the Lyanna-Rhaegar issue and the subsequent war. Even Robert himself would have interpreted the coronation differently after Lya ended up with Rhaegar.

The idea that all the feelings Robert had (or Brandon had when he rode to KL) were actually felt back at Harrenhal is just bad conjecture, people pretending that the characters could see the future.

As I said above somewhere, Yandel's claim that Robert nurtured a secret grievance against Rhaegar after the coronation might very well be true ... but if this was the case then there must have been some more substance to such feelings than just the coronation thing. Because that is clearly not something that could and would only be interpreted as a romantic or sexual gesture. Especially in light of Rhaegar already being married and a father and nearly ten years older than Lyanna.

That crowning women the queen of love and beauty is usually not seen as knights sucking up to women romantically we can actually simply conclude from Barristan thinking that he would have crowned Ashara Dayne had he won. If there is a general romantic or sexual undertone to that thing the Kingsguard would not be allowed to do this since they not allowed to have sex or to marry.

Robert's feelings - and Brandon's, I think - would thus be more influenced by circumstances around that event. By Lya's reaction to it, by Rhaegar's earlier and later talks with Lyanna, by their general interaction throughout the entire tourney. Later the coronation would be the event symbolizing all that in Robert's memory, but in itself it is pretty meaningless.

I don't see this the way you do.  First, Rhaegar passes up the logical candidate: his wife, who is present.  He then chooses an apparent stranger to whom he has no connection, who is of marriageable age but not yet wed.  This is guaranteed to set tongues wagging.  "Why did he pick her?  What's going on?".  Romantic or political interest are the logical conclusions.  Neither is good here.

Barristan's situation with Ashara is not the same.  She is a maid of honor to Princess Elia and the sister of a fellow Kingsguard.  She's a logical choice, even in the absence of a romantic attraction.

The problem with Rhaegar choosing Lyanna is that he has no obvious non scandalous reason to do so.  Rhaegar has no friendships or other connection to any Starks not is she a logical honoree otherwise; connected to the organizers for instance.  So scandalous or conspiratorial reasons will start to be considered. Hence the unhappiness of the Starks and Robert.  And the fueling of Aerys's paranoia.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Nevets

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I don't see this the way you do.  First, Rhaegar passes up the logical candidate: his wife, who is present.  He then chooses an apparent stranger to whom he has no connection, who is of marriageable age but not yet wed.  This is guaranteed to set tongues wagging.  "Why did he pick her?  What's going on?".  Romantic or political interest are the logical conclusions.  Neither is good here.

Yeah, people can wonder why he would do it. But it could be just be an empty gesture, something he did out of strange mood like his father, the aptly named Mad King. Also, of course, Lya might be suspicious in the eyes of some who actually knew more about what Rhaegar and Lyanna did prior to the crowning at Harrenhal. As I keep saying, it is the larger context that is very likely causing Robert's and Brandon's issues, not so much this simple thing. If you view it from a neutral point of view, Brandon and Robert should wonder why Rhaegar did that ... not be angry because they thought it was Rhaegar wanting to fuck Lyanna. Because for that they would have more than just the crowning.

And while the wife might be the likeliest - or safest - choice in such cases, she is hardly the only. Your mother or sister would also always be a good choice, also the maid of honor in whose name the tourney is held.

A daughter of a great house would also always be an acceptable choice, be she married or unmarried or comely or homely ... because her high birth would make this the proper treatment of such a lady.

This whole thing would always be an honor, not something improper. The notion that you have to honor your wife in this way if present is wrong. Yes, it would be the proper, safest thing to do, but there are many reasons why one might not want to do that. Like, for instance, if the marriage sucked. Stannis would never honor Selyse in that way if he ever won a tourney.

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Barristan's situation with Ashara is not the same.  She is a maid of honor to Princess Elia and the sister of a fellow Kingsguard.  She's a logical choice, even in the absence of a romantic attraction.

No, she isn't, because there is no direct link between Barristan and Ashara. As a Kingsguard, he should always honor the female members of the royal family because they are the only family to him now.

That is ... if we go with the wrong notion that there are fixed rules and expectations to this and it is not just all informal and symbolic stuff people can view as very meaningful ... or not. But we shouldn't do that as the Barristan example shows that he didn't think other people would interpret him crowning Ashara as him lusting after her, him getting her attention so she would start an affair with him, etc.

The same would also be the case if the Whent girl was honored.

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The problem with Rhaegar choosing Lyanna is that he has no obvious non scandalous reason to do so.  Rhaegar has no friendships or other connection to any Starks not is she a logical honoree otherwise; connected to the organizers for instance.  So scandalous or conspiratorial reasons will start to be considered. Hence the unhappiness of the Starks and Robert.  And the fueling of Aerys's paranoia.

As the daughter of the great house she is no unusual honoree. Sure enough, then you have to interpret it politically, but that is the obvious interpretation anyway, as Rhaegar was married and chose to honor a betrothed girl of a great and important family.

That Rhaegar had no Stark connections we also don't know yet. Sure enough, it wouldn't be all that strong ties, but it is not unlikely that we might learn that Aerys' reasons to suspect Rhaegar was plotting with Rickard weren't totally inaccurate. It is quite striking that all Stark children (and perhaps Lord Rickard himself) were at Harrenhal.

In fact, if we view things politically a political reason influencing Brandon's feelings could have been that he was sent to Harrenhal by his father (if Rickard wasn't there himself) because Rickard wanted to help Rhaegar to depose Aerys or set him up as Prince Regent. Rickard had strong ties to many important people - the Tullys through the Cat match, to Robert through Lyanna, to the Vale via Ned. If Rickard was also a man whose opinion mattered to those men then he could actually have been the crucial player to convince to stage a relatively bloodless coup against Aerys. If you are Rhaegar and you want to approach certain great lords informally and secretly then the best way to do that could have been to go through Rickard who had ties to a lot of them, meaning that visits and messages, etc. would be completely normal.

If any of that would turn out to be true, then Brandon and Rhaegar could have either quarreled earlier because Rhaegar was too reluctant in his plans against Aerys or too bold. Considering Brandon's character I'd assume he would have felt Rhaegar was too reluctant, too cowardly.

If Brandon had come to Harrenhal expecting to plot with Rhaegar only to find the guy kind of forget any such plans after his father actually showed up (one can see Brandon trying to push Rhaegar to move against his father at Harrenhal since the lords plainly saw how mad he was there) and instead seems to be weirdly infatuated with Brandon's little sister it would make a lot of sense that he was pissed.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:43 AM, Craving Peaches said:

So I think there is reliable information in the first part.

There definitely is reliable information in that dream. The color of William Dustin's horse, for example.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[KingAerys_II]

Rhaegar the overrated who defeated Ser Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Lewyn Martell, and badly injured a man considered invincible in battle, skilled as a singer, intelligent, come on

Edited October 5, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Rhaegar the overrated who defeated Ser Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Lewyn Martell

All KGs who potentially let him win and certainly wouldn't have been going all out because they can't hurt the Prince.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

injured a man considered invincible in battle

No one considers Robert 'invincible' and Rhaegar lost that battle despite having more men and a superior position.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

skilled as a singer

No one cares about that.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

intelligent

So are multiple other people.

[KingAerys_II]

Ser Barristan Selmy defined him as the finest man he has ever met, in the fever dream Jaime labels Rhaegar as rightful heir to the Iron Throne, he was considered the last dragon and defeated Ser Barristan who wished to crown Ashara as Queen of beauty and love, so he was not overrated at all

Edited October 5, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

Ser Barristan Selmy defined him as the finest man he has ever met

Ser Barristan is biased and also stood by and did nothing while Aerys abused Rhaella.

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

in the fever dream Jaime labels Rhaegar as rightful heir to the Iron Throne

So? Rightful =/= right...

[KingAerys_II]

Who was better than Robert? Barristan and Arthur, then he was clearly one of the best warriors. 

I don't know if a stronger Baratheon ever existed, Boros killed lots of knights before dying, Orys was extremely skilled, he was the best friend of Aegon, but Robert was a warrior who used a Warhammer