Rhaegar the Overrated

[Nevets]

I would like to point out the number of characters that have claimed, or even so much as hinted, that Rhaegar's taking of Lyanna was not a kidnapping - ZERO.  Everyone in Westeros now, and probably then, believes it was a kidnapping.  Even the Targaryens think so.

At the very least this would suggest she didn't simply sneak off to a rendezvous by herself.  It could certainly have been staged; at this point we simply have too little information to say for sure what was going on.  If motivated by prophecy, a likely possibility, Lyanna likely knew of his interest, so Rhaegar's actions may not have come as a complete surprise.

I don't see any reason for Rhaegar to anticipate anything worse than political conflict with the Starks; something he probably figured he could deal with.  Marriages, patronage, etc.  While he may have anticipated (essentially empty) threats from Brandon, showing up in person and making threats was probably not what he was expecting; nor his father's reaction.

[csuszka1948]

On 9/23/2023 at 11:41 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I'd like to point out that Rhaegar was also abandoning his own wife when he ran off with Lyanna, exactly the sort of thing Lyanna criticised Robert for being likely to do. So...

Except that's not what Lysanma criticised Robert for. Her problem was that Robert is a fundamentally dishonest person who claims to love her but still regularly whores. That's something that Ned also recognises in AGOT, that Robert promises something and forgets it come next day. 

For all his faults, Rhaegar wasn't like this. He married Elia for duty (there was no love in their relationship) and probably loved Lyanna and didn't cheat on her.

[csuszka1948]

On 9/23/2023 at 11:34 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

1) No. Robb did something that was fundamentally noble. He messed up and deflowered this woman, so he decided to marry her to protect her honor even though he knew that it would damage his cause. I don't think it's comparable to what Rhaegar did.

Well, apparently saving Lyanna from an unwanted marriage (if that's what happened) isn't a noble thing.

On 9/23/2023 at 11:34 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Right or not, I don't think an arranged marriage is equal to starting a continent destroying war.

Except it didn't start a continent destroying war, nobody called the banners as an answer to that.

Aerys' vile actions caused Jon Arryn to start a war. 

On 9/23/2023 at 11:34 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

3) That's a minor difference to me. But setting aside the arranged marriage issue, you originally compared Rhaegar "saving" Lyanna from an arranged marriage to Catelyn wanting justice for the attempted murders of her son. I just don't think that those things are at all comparable.

I compared it in the sense that the actual event probably wasn't what people claim it to be now (forceful kidnapping of a noble girl), and wasn't the event that actually sparked the war.

Edited September 25, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

I would like to point out the number of characters that have claimed, or even so much as hinted, that Rhaegar's taking of Lyanna was not a kidnapping - ZERO.

Barristan Selmy doesn’t seem to believe that it was a kidnapping, for one.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Barristan Selmy doesn’t seem to believe that it was a kidnapping, for one.

And how many people actually do talk about it in any way? Most who do refer to it as a kidnapping but we’re talking about what, two people? Three?

[johnrreyna]

TL;DR: Rhaegar either had a dragon dream, some kind of vision, or was very well versed in prophecy. I think he had a dragon dream (like Jon's where he is armored in black ice with a burning sword fighting the others). This dream or prophecy probably depicted something like him married to a woman with a laughing weirwood face (whom he discovered was Lyanna at the tournament at Harrenhall) holding a glowing, golden infant or something else which implied that their union or offspring would be of paramount importance. This dream may have included a vision of them standing over a battlefield of devastation with hundreds of thousands of people dead. He knew that he needed to have a child with SOMEONE and that those actions would lead to absolute carnage, but ultimately save the World. This is why he was depressed his whole life. When he saw that Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree, he realized what he had to do, and knew it would start a war, as well as lead to his own death. 

If aSoIaF took place in our world, then I would agree that Rhaegar was reckless and caused a lot of unwarranted destruction. But it is proven that visions and prophecy are actually real in the book universe. You can argue that the prophecy doesn't excuse all of his actions, but if the prophecy is true, it is kind of like the trolley problem: do you sacrifice 1 person to save 20? For the purpose of my post, I will assume the prophecy is true and that something needs to be done about the Others or the world will end.

I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar may have had dragon dreams as well as Daenys the Dreamer, or Daeron (the drunkard, oldest son of Maekar Targaryen). Those dreams seem to always come true, likewise with Jojen's greendreams and the prophecies of the Ghost of High Heart. She said that the Prince that was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella, so I can believe that Rhaegar would think that he needed to fulfill the prophecy somehow.

From this, I think that's why he was always melancholy his whole life. Dragon dreams, the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy, and/or reading about prophecy probably made him realize that if he didn't do what he ended up doing, then the world would end. He knew that his actions would cause a war, killing hundreds of thousands, including himself, but he needed to do it to birth the PtwP/Azor Ahai/The Last Hero, if they are all even the same person. And as far as the books have implied so far, it seems like Jon Snow may be one of these people and will almost certainly be very important in the battle against the Others. So, in a sense, Rhaegar's actions ended up working.

People always ask why Rhaegar chose Lyanna instead of any other unwed maiden in Westeros, and the answer is: we don't know. He may have had a very good reason. Lyanna isn't just ANYBODY, she has the blood of the first men (and possibly children of the forest), and we can see that that family line has powerful magic, e.g. Bran, Jon, Rickon, and Arya. Not to mention, possibly even The Warg King and/or The Night's King. Rhaegar probably knew that TPtwP/Azor Ahai/The Last Hero needed the blood of the dragon as well as the blood of the first men. We really just don't know nearly enough about what was going on in Rhaegar's head.

Edited September 25, 2023 by johnrreyna

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And how many people actually do talk about it in any way? Most who do refer to it as a kidnapping but we’re talking about what, two people? Three?

Well, there is "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" from Barristan and "Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory" from Ned.

Tower of Joy isn't something you name the place where you plan to take your abduction victim and torture her. And it would make even less sense for Lyanna's brother Ned to remember it that way if that's really what happened.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, there is "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" from Barristan and "Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory" from Ned.

Tower of Joy isn't something you name the place where you plan to take your abduction victim and torture her. And it would make even less sense for Lyanna's brother Ned to remember it that way if that's really what happened.

I meant how many characters talk about the kidnapping of Lyanna. There’s a post up thread about how every character talks about it in these terms, “Lyanna was kidnapped”. It’s true, but it’s also true that it isn’t a subject that comes up often and/or that is discussed by a host of characters. There are very few characters talking about it at all.  And by the way, the way that so few ever talk about something that had such a huge impact and happened relatively a short time ago, is not very credible imo. 

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe because the two events happened on different years? The tourney at the end of 281 and Rhaegar’s disappearance early on in 282?
 

The tourney happened towards the end of the year, during the false spring, but the false spring was short lived. With the new year, winter came back and Rhaegar was gone.

TWoIaF, The Year of the False Spring

The timeline is hard to hammer down, but we do have good evidence to tackle Aegon's conception in light of Elia having to recover from near death for six months after the birth of Rhaenys. That means most likely no sex for 6+ months between Elia and Rhaegar. In fact, I think we can reasonably date Aegon's conception in KL taking place during the time little Rhaenys was presented to the king and queen by their parents (which would have been some time after Elia's recovery).

While the False Spring as such is short, it stands to reason that there was a not-so-wintery time even before the 'official False Spring' as Lord Whent would have never announced his big tourney in the thickness of winter or severe winter weather ... a tourney could still happen in deep winter but it would likely be a smaller affair. Rhaegar would not want his buddy Walter throw a grand tourney in the thick of winter.

As things finally stand, Lord Walter When announced his tourney late in 280 AC, shortly before Tywin's resignation in early 281 AC, so a date for the tourney in late 281 AC is unlikely as such events might be planned for months in advance but not a year in advance (the Great Council of 101 AC wasn't announced in 100 AC, for instance).

While the False Spring as a named period is very short, it makes sense to imagine the winter before was mild and spring-like for a longer time. After all, the Citadel announces the seasons, so for people to believe it was spring or the spring raven would come soon - which is what the False Spring was about - there must have been spring-like weather for a long time.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding the crowing:

I think we should keep in mind that Lya was actually only 13-14 years old at that time. Sure enough, Rhaegar not honoring his own wife was a slight to her and a bit of a scandal.

But Lya was still half a child and not considered a great beauty or anything of that sort.

So the interpretation or perception that Rhaegar, as a married men and a father, was actually lusting after Lyanna, in love with her, trying to get her attention, etc. is actually pretty weird in context - and reflects badly on both Brandon and Robert (if we assume they had not a more intimate knowledge about what may have gone on between Lya and Rhaegar before the crowning).

They seem like possessive and jealous pricks there.

Loras Tyrell gives a red rose to Sansa Stark at the Tourney of the Hand - she is no free maiden but the betrothed of the Crown Prince. Sure enough, a rose isn't the same as the coronation thing there ... but if we imagine little Sansa was honored in that way by a married tourney champion would that be a big deal?

I don't think so.

If we consider this the interpretation of Aerys and his cronies also makes more sense - they, like many other spectators, wouldn't have seen a reason to assume Rhaegar was into this plain girl. They were looking for a deeper meaning, interpreting it as a political gesture towards Lord Rickard, not romantic gesture.

And this would actually make more sense if you look at things - like there are people thinking Loras gave Sansa a red rose to kind of suck up to Ned who he and Renly wanted to use for Renly's Margaery plan.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

54 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s a post up thread about how every character talks about it in these terms, “Lyanna was kidnapped”.

I got that, and I provided what, in my opinion, are two examples of the contrary.

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Regarding the crowing:

I think we should keep in mind that Lya was actually only 13-14 years old at that time. Sure enough, Rhaegar not honoring his own wife was a slight to her and a bit of a scandal.

But Lya was still half a child and not considered a great beauty or anything of that sort.

So the interpretation or perception that Rhaegar, as a married men and a father, was actually lusting after Lyanna, in love with her, trying to get her attention, etc. is actually pretty weird in context - and reflects badly on both Brandon and Robert (if we assume they had not a more intimate knowledge about what may have gone on between Lya and Rhaegar before the crowning).

It’s a good point.  And if you look at what was the Harrenhal tourney’s most probable inspiration it’s even more head scratching.  The tourney in Ivanhoe is probably the closest parallel.  And in the Ivanhoe tourney, when the mystery knight crowns Lady Rowena, her adopted family doesn’t take offense at all (despite the fact that she was already betrothed) but takes it as a sign of respect for their Saxon family.  It’s only Rowena’s betrothed who takes offense.

So while there is some precedent for Robert being miffed, it’s very odd that Brandon and Eddard seem more upset than him.

Now of course, the choice of blue roses could be the issue if Brandon and Eddard were familiar with the tale of Bael the Bard.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As things finally stand, Lord Walter When announced his tourney late in 280 AC, shortly before Tywin's resignation in early 281 AC, so a date for the tourney in late 281 AC is unlikely as such events might be planned for months in advance but not a year in advance (the Great Council of 101 AC wasn't announced in 100 AC, for instance).

I disagree. Because even though we know very little, we do know some basic facts that place the Tourney and the alleged kidnapping of Lyanna within a short period of time as shown in the quote I posted. We also know the tourney happened in 281 and the disappearance of Rhaegar and Lyanna in 282. The only possible conclusion is that these two events happened relatively close to each other.

The only other possible explanation would require us to go back to that old quote from Martin advising readers to put down rulers and stopwatches, implying that that type of thing is not where the important information is. That said, TWoIaF is much more recent - even if it’s been published almost 10 years ago! - than the SSM about rulers and stopwatches. And that makes me think the info in the book is fairly accurate.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I meant how many characters talk about the kidnapping of Lyanna. There’s a post up thread about how every character talks about it in these terms, “Lyanna was kidnapped”. It’s true, but it’s also true that it isn’t a subject that comes up often and/or that is discussed by a host of characters. There are very few characters talking about it at all.  And by the way, the way that so few ever talk about something that had such a huge impact and happened relatively a short time ago, is not very credible imo. 

I think it’s undisputed that it had to be a kidnapping, whether or not Lyanna was taken kicking or screaming, or met up with Rhaegar and rode off with him willingly.  The issue was that he took an underage girl from her family without their leave, and with them being unaware of where she was brought.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, there is "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" from Barristan and "Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory" from Ned.

Tower of Joy isn't something you name the place where you plan to take your abduction victim and torture her. And it would make even less sense for Lyanna's brother Ned to remember it that way if that's really what happened.

Well what Rhaegar would consider a joy, might not be what Lyanna would consider joyous.  Rhaegar could have very well named it not because it was a place he found carnal joy in with Lyanna, but because he anticipated a birth that was going to happen there.  (Or perhaps a hatching).

[Kal-L]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So while there is some precedent for Robert being miffed, it’s very odd that Brandon and Eddard seem more upset than him.

It's more Rhaegar being a married man with his wife present than Lyanna being betrothed the problem. Had Rhaegar not been married with children, crowning Lyanna wouldn't have make such a fuss.

The son of king known to have had countless mistresses of noble lineages descendant of one of notorious dishonorable man (Aegon IV) who used to take every woman he wanted (married or not) and had several mistresses among nobility, outwardly expressing his interest for their sister ? Brandon and Ned's anger expressed differently was more of a "Lyanna Stark is no Melissa Blackwood !".

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Kal-L said:

It's more Rhaegar being a married man with his wife present than Lyanna being betrothed the problem. Had Rhaegar not been married with children, crowning Lyanna wouldn't have make such a fuss.

The son of king known to have had countless mistresses of noble lineages descendant of one of notorious dishonorable man (Aegon IV) who used to take every woman he wanted (married or not) and had several mistresses among nobility, outwardly expressing his interest for their sister ? Brandon and Ned's anger expressed differently was more of a "Lyanna Stark is no Melissa Blackwood !".

But that assumes that crowning Lyanna would be considered a romantic gesture.  It’s more likely that the gesture would have been seen by a third party observer as a sign of respect for Lyanna and her family.  In fact, that’s what the lickspittles told Aerys, that Rhaegar was trying to curry favor with the Stark family.  

So while Rober could be a bit miffed that Rhaegar was trying to show him up with his betrothed, it seems very odd that Brandon would be more upset than Robert.  

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it’s undisputed that it had to be a kidnapping, whether or not Lyanna was taken kicking or screaming, or met up with Rhaegar and rode off with him willingly.

The textbook definition of kidnapping is "the unlawful seizure and detention of a person against their will". If she ran off with him willingly, then it's an elopement.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it’s undisputed that it had to be a kidnapping, whether or not Lyanna was taken kicking or screaming, or met up with Rhaegar and rode off with him willingly.  The issue was that he took an underage girl from her family without their leave, and with them being unaware of where she was brought.

I’m not saying it wasn’t a kidnapping. Or that it was. I’m not defending anyone, and I’m not judging anyone. The point I’ve been trying to make all along is just that we don’t have enough information to form an informed opinion. 
 

I also think part of the problem is that it’s been so damn long that readers have been waiting for, if not a final reveal, a wee bit more info. I mean, I’ve been waiting longer than some readers have been alive.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The textbook definition of kidnapping is "the unlawful seizure and detention of a person against their will". If she ran off with him willingly, then it's an elopement.

I don’t think most in Westeros would consider taking an underage girl engaged to another without the permission of their family a legitimate elopement.  It’s a kidnapping.  Even today, if one were to lure an underage girl away from her family without permission, it’s a kidnapping.