Characters' Worst Decisions

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I thought of one! 

Sansa : Telling Ser Dantos that she was gonna marry Willas Tyrell. I guess it depends if Willas is a good dude or not, but Dantos definitely immediately reported that to Petyr who then told the Lannisters. It would have given Sansa ...maybe a better life? Not sure, but she was excited about it. 

[Alester Florent]

17 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I thought of one! 

Sansa : Telling Ser Dantos that she was gonna marry Willas Tyrell. I guess it depends if Willas is a good dude or not, but Dantos definitely immediately reported that to Petyr who then told the Lannisters. It would have given Sansa ...maybe a better life? Not sure, but she was excited about it. 

Obviously we don't know exactly where Sansa is headed now, but a marriage to Willas would probably have helped give her some control of her own life.  She would probably have liked Highgarden from what we know about her and it (it seems to be as close to her dreamed-of "fairytale castle" as Westeros can provide), and unless Willas is a very different man from what we've heard, it could hardly be worse than remaining in King's Landing being tormented by Joffrey. 

As lady of Highgarden (which she would de facto have become immediately, since Mace is in KL, and in time de jure when Willas inherited) she would have been in a position to start creating her own court and wield actual influence. Indeed, she might even have been in a position to assist Robb (albeit his fate was probably already sealed by that point).

She might still get all this as Lady of the Vale (the next-best fairytale kingdom to the Reach) but she's had to go through a lot to get there, if she ever does.  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lee-Sensei]

9 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Obviously we don't know exactly where Sansa is headed now, but a marriage to Willas would probably have helped give her some control of her own life.  She would probably have liked Highgarden from what we know about her and it (it seems to be as close to her dreamed-of "fairytale castle" as Westeros can provide), and unless Willas is a very different man from what we've heard, it could hardly be worse than remaining in King's Landing being tormented by Joffrey. 

As lady of Highgarden (which she would de facto have become immediately, since Mace is in KL, and in time de jure when Willas inherited) she would have been in a position to start creating her own court and wield actual influence. Indeed, she might even have been in a position to assist Robb (albeit his fate was probably already sealed by that point).

She might still get all this as Lady of the Vale (the next-best fairytale kingdom to the Reach) but she's had to go through a lot to get there, if she ever does.  

George has a habit of dishing out some form of karma to characters that do bad things. If Sansa plays a role in killing Robert Arryn, I can't imagine that it won't be discovered and many of the Lords of the Vale would want her dead. I don't think she'd do that anyways. Sansa is one of the most empathetic characters that we see in the series (after Ned's execution at least). I don't see her marrying Harry and she doesn't want to marry Robert. I think her destiny is back at her home in Winterfell.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, Groo said:

I would say not leaving with Sandor on the night of the battle. She alerted Cersei but I don't think things would have gone all that differently even if she hadn't. The whole gold cloaks betrayal was Littlefinger's doing and if he had sided with Ned it would have been Cersei who ended up in a cell. Ned was also perfectly willing to warn Cersei himself anyways. Ned even had time to get Arya and Sansa away but he let Littlefinger delay him.

On the other hand, image how differently things would have been for Sansa if she left with Sandor. No marriage to Tyrion. No threats from Lysa. No Littlefinger.

It was also more of a true decision. She knew what Sandor was offering. She had a basic understanding of the situation and the risks involved. With Cersei, Sansa didn't really understand all that was going on.

No, I don't see leaving with Sandor as a good idea.  First, they will be seen leaving (Sandor planned to force his way out) so there will be a massive search.  The Lannisters may not care about Sandor, they care very much about Sansa.  Also, the surrounding area is a war zone.  Anything happens to Sandor, Sansa's probably fucked, literally as well as figuratively.  Even if you dismiss these concerns, given her knowledge and experience with Sandor, her decision is entirely reasonable.

[Lee-Sensei]

10 minutes ago, Nevets said:

No, I don't see leaving with Sandor as a good idea.  First, they will be seen leaving (Sandor planned to force his way out) so there will be a massive search.  The Lannisters may not care about Sandor, they care very much about Sansa.  Also, the surrounding area is a war zone.  Anything happens to Sandor, Sansa's probably fucked, literally as well as figuratively.  Even if you dismiss these concerns, given her knowledge and experience with Sandor, her decision is entirely reasonable.

I can't remember. Was it mentioned that Sandor fought his way out?

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I can't remember. Was it mentioned that Sandor fought his way out?

No, but Sansa tells him that the Queen has closed off Maegor's and the city gates are shut as well, and he responds that he has a white cloak and a sword.

He never specifically offered to take her, he just said he could keep her safe.   At that moment, though, she was afraid he might hurt her instead.  He demanded a song, which she gave him, and he left without a word.  I don't think leaving together was a serious option from either point of view.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 10/2/2023 at 5:02 PM, Groo said:

You've got me thinking now. I always thought arresting Tyrion was supremely boneheaded, but in fairness to Cat, it was a sudden unexpected encounter and she had been led to believe that Tyrion was behind the assassination attempt. Releasing Jaime, on the other hand, is nothing but raw desperation. She had plenty of time to think on it. It's not a good plan. It has plenty of downside and she went ahead and did it anyways. 

yes

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:09 PM, SeanF said:

I do not recall Robb giving any oath to Walder, and he was definitely Robb’s vassal by the time he murdered him.

Robb Stark gave his oath to Walder. The terms were Robb would marry one of Walder's daughters.  Walder would provide support to Robb.  Walder was not legally a vassal because Robb was not the lord of the riverlands.  Robb was just a rebel.  In other words, a lawbreaker. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Here's Looking At You, Kid

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Robb Stark gave his oath to Walder. The terms were Robb would marry one of Walder's daughters.  Walder would provide support to Robb.  Walder was not legally a vassal because Robb was not the lord of the riverlands.  Robb was just a rebel.  In other words, a lawbreaker. 

Robb was Walder's King, and Edmure his overlord.  Walder violated his obligation of fealty to both men, and violated his obligations to the Gods by carrying out murder of guests, at a wedding.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Robb was Walder's King, and Edmure his overlord.  Walder violated his obligation of fealty to both men, and violated his obligations to the Gods by carrying out murder of guests, at a wedding.

Robb became Walder's king later, but he'd already broken his oath. Walder could have broken away with honor (I'm not saying that he's an honourable man). Edmure was his overlord, but Walder had plausible deniability. What he did wasn't the worst thing in the world. It's similar to Hoster Tully refusing to fight for Aerys or the rebels until he got a marriage offer, even though the Tullys only rule over the Freys, because the Targaryens made them the overlords of the Riverlands around 300 years earlier. Walder only really crossed the line with the Red Wedding. Before that he was just a regular weasel.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robb became Walder's king later, but he'd already broken his oath. Walder could have broken away with honor (I'm not saying that he's an honourable man). Edmure was his overlord, but Walder had plausible deniability. What he did wasn't the worst thing in the world. It's similar to Hoster Tully refusing to fight for Aerys or the rebels until he got a marriage offer, even though the Tullys only rule over the Freys, because the Targaryens made them the overlords of the Riverlands around 300 years earlier. Walder only really crossed the line with the Red Wedding. Before that he was just a regular weasel.

Walder would have had grounds to repudiate his allegiance to Robb, certainly.  Breaking with Edmure would be harder to justify, but if he got away with it, the new regime would have rewarded him.

The Red Wedding crosses every line.

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Walder would have had grounds to repudiate his allegiance to Robb, certainly.  Breaking with Edmure would be harder to justify, but if he got away with it, the new regime would have rewarded him.

The Red Wedding crosses every line.

I said that the Red Wedding crossed the line, but before, everything he did was in the normal bounds. It was just weaselly and made him unlikable. Also, I feel the need to point this out again, because people often forget it. The reason the Tullys rule the Freys, isn't because they conquered them long ago or the Freys agreed to swear fealty to the Tullys for protection or a marriage pact. It's because the Targaryens gave them power over the Riverlands. Hoster Tully later "betrayed" the Tullys for the Baratheons on the condition that Ned married Catelyn and Jon Arryn married his "soiled" daughter Lysa. So I don't really think it's fair to say that the Freys are scum for not marching out to support Edmure from the start, when Hoster pulled a similar move during Roberts Rebellion and they only have authority over the Freys, as a hold over from the Targaryens that the Tullys helped force into exile. And I like the Tullys.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I think Ned not keeping a closer eye on Roose Bolton over the years also qualifies.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think Ned not keeping a closer eye on Roose Bolton over the years also qualifies.

To be fair to Ned, honestly, as I'm rereading AFfC, I honestly feel Roose is a fool. Like...he is going to die. Ramsay is going to die. His house is going to fall apart because of this betrayal. He has loose to no control over any of the Northern houses, they all hate him with a passion that burns in their souls, and they are all just basically biding their time to betray him. His betrayal of the Starks....was to be blunt, a short term gain that won't last, and end up costing his house ...who knows maybe everything? Is it possible House Bolton is extinguished at the end of this series. I think...yes. 

My point is...since Roose is known as a semi-intelligent man, probably no one thought he would make a decision that would cause the entire North to hate him. And also wouldn't decide to ..legitimize an obviously unstable ...serial killer (Ramsay is basically a serial killer right?) as his heir. Like..those are both wild things to see coming. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He has loose to no control over any of the Northern houses, they all hate him with a passion that burns in their souls, and they are all just basically biding their time to betray him.

Except the Karstarks and Barbery Dustin.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Except the Karstarks and Barbery Dustin.

I think Barbery Dustin is going to betray him to (and the Ryswells). I subscribe to the Northern Conspiracy theory, which is basically a theory that all the Northern Lords are just biding their time and that includes Barbery Dustin (remember, she hates Ramsay, and doesn't even pretend she doesn't. He murdered her nephew and she knows it. She might actually hate Eddard Stark, but Eddard Stark is dead, and Ramsay Bolton who murdered her nephew is alive and in danger of being her overlord). 

As to the Karstarks, well Arnolf is loyal to Roose...but Alys certainly isn't. And a note that everyone forgets : Harrion Karstark, the actual rightful lord...I think is still alive and captive in Maidenpool. Which is interesting, cause I have no idea what he is like (Arya sees him from a distance in Harrenhall, but that is all we know of him)...or what he feels about about what's going on. If Harrion Karstark hates Roose (he should, Roose sent him to Duskendale, which was of course to purposely have them lose), he could probably instantly get all the Karstarks behind him if he ever reappears and he would presumably be anti-Roose.