Honour and duty: “words are wind!”

[SeanF]

Jesus said “let your yay be yay, and your nay, nay.”  A promise should be treated as seriously as any vow.

But, mortals, being what they are, don’t act like that.  In all societies, oaths are sworn.  Some people take oaths extremely seriously.  Others don’t.  The Praetorian Guards repeatedly betrayed Roman emperors for gain.  Yet, German and Scandinavian bodyguards rarely did so, because in their eyes, an oathbreaker was the worst of criminals, a nithing.

A man who breaks an oath, in this world,  spits in the face of the Gods, and that should be a very serious thing in a world where 99% of people take the existence of the Gods for granted.  And this, I think, is where the world building could be better.  In such a world, the oath one has sworn should not be considered binding, if one is commanded  to perform a very grave sin, in the eyes of the Gods.

Obedience to a mortal, however great, should always give way to obedience to a God.  

Edited September 30, 2023 by SeanF

[Odej]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Barristan served Aerys, Robert and Joffrey, 3 awful kings. He did all they asked. And he is still proud of his job. Is he lobotomized? At least Sandor is rebelling against this system. He is no knight, but a better man.

Sandor also did absolutely everything Cersei and Joffrey comanded him and he really seemed to enjoy killing. I think there was a reason why Joffrey liked him so much.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

He did. I’m not arguing he’s a perfect man who’d never do anything bad.
He’s a very flawed individual, same as Jaime. But he is willing to go against vows and rules and such. The better way to put it might be that he’s willing to go against the status quo, something others considered better than him and proper knights don’t have the stomach or the spine to do. And that makes him a much better man in my book. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how he automatically becomes a better person by 'going against the status quo'.

Personally, I very much doubt that Barristan would have gone after the butcher's boy and murdered him if Robert ordered him to do so. He didn't commit any despicable acts but watched despicable acts being committed - which the Hound also did in AGOT and ACOK (even if he comforted Sansa) and only quitted when Tyrion ordered him to fight in the face of fire.

He developed later, but so did Barristan - he observed Dany before revealing himself to her and after Dany disappeared in ADWD acted on what he thinks is right.

 

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but this idea that the Hound (who murdered a child with no regret, when he had the opportunity to report it to Robert) or Jaime (whose selfishness caused a war and he still doesn't take responsibility for it) are better people than Barristan seems ridiculous. Yes, they are more open-minded but that doesn't make them better, because they are generally less decent and most of their criticism of the knighthood is just talk, not act - it's Brienne who acts like a true knight should.

Edited September 30, 2023 by csuszka1948

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Odej said:

Sandor also did absolutely everything Cersei and Joffrey comanded him and he really seemed to enjoy killing. I think there was a reason why Joffrey liked him so much.

Yes. He is violent, half mad with rage and blood. Angry with everyone playing this game. Maybe he was angry too with Mycah for pretending. But he sees the world as it is. He knows what these fucking vows mean. And for me, it's better than Baristan, Who is the incarnation of this folly. Not that Sandor is great, but Baristan is worse. The kind man who makes bad kings thrive. And after Sansa, Arya and the Riverlands, maybe Sandor has changed and will find causes worth fighting for.

 

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't see how he automatically becomes a better person by 'going against the status quo'.

Personally, I very much doubt that Barristan would have gone after the butcher's boy and murdered him if Robert ordered him to do so. He didn't commit any despicable acts but watched despicable acts being committed - which the Hound also did in AGOT and ACOK (even if he comforted Sansa) and only quitted when Tyrion ordered him to fight in the face of fire.

He developed later, but so did Barristan - he observed Dany before revealing himself to her and after Dany disappeared in ADWD acted on what he thinks is right.

 

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but this idea that the Hound (who murdered a child with no regret, when he had the opportunity to report it to Robert) or Jaime (whose selfishness caused a war and he still doesn't take responsibility for it) are better people than Barristan seems ridiculous. Yes, they are more open-minded but that doesn't make them better, because they are generally less decent and most of their criticism of the knighthood is just talk, not act - it's Brienne who acts like a true knight should.

It’s a very modern idea that the worst, perhaps only real, sin is hypocrisy, and that a person who is openly and unashamedly wicked is better than a person who professes ideals that he does not live up to.

And, it’s quite wrong.  Nobody, however virtuous, lives up to their professed ideals.  But, it’s still better to have standards than not to have them.

Barristan failed to live up to his professed standards.  But, he’s still a better man than the Hound is. The Hound is a tormented, sympathetic, figure, but he is also a common murderer.  

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Barristan served Aerys, Robert and Joffrey, 3 awful kings. He did all they asked. And he is still proud of his job. Is he lobotomized? At least Sandor is rebelling against this system. He is no knight, but a better man.

The guy didn't rebel against anything. He ran away when the fire broke him. He didn't refuse orders out of conviction.

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes. He is violent, half mad with rage and blood. Angry with everyone playing this game. Maybe he was angry too with Mycah for pretending. But he sees the world as it is. He knows what these fucking vows mean. And for me, it's better than Baristan, Who is the incarnation of this folly. Not that Sandor is great, but Baristan is worse. The kind man who makes bad kings thrive. And after Sansa, Arya and the Riverlands, maybe Sandor has changed and will find causes worth fighting for.

The guy doesn't see 'the world as it is'. The guy just sees the world with the eyes of an immature child who grew up with Gregor for a brother and was abused by him. But that isn't the world, it isn't the or a truth ... it is just being the victim of horrible abuse.

The guy has no insight into anything, he just has a lot of pain and cynicism inside. He is not completely evil but he is evil, he does terrible things ... and it matters not if he just pretends to like to be cruel or if he enjoys it sometimes.

He does horrible things and he is a proud thug for most of his life.

It is quite obviously wrong to say that because one bad apple, his brother, exists that all knights are rotten. And it is even more wrong to say that because of that it is okay to be or become the asshead the guy is. We can understand why the guy gets to this conclusion but we also know it is the wrong conclusion.

8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but this idea that the Hound (who murdered a child with no regret, when he had the opportunity to report it to Robert) or Jaime (whose selfishness caused a war and he still doesn't take responsibility for it) are better people than Barristan seems ridiculous. Yes, they are more open-minded but that doesn't make them better, because they are generally less decent and most of their criticism of the knighthood is just talk, not act - it's Brienne who acts like a true knight should.

People tend to fall in love with assholes if they share their thoughts or they perceive them through the eyes of a girl like Sansa. It is a bit embarrassing, actually. Barristan Selmy is a bit bland, but he is obviously a good guy.

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy didn't rebel against anything. He ran away when the fire broke him. He didn't refuse orders out of conviction.

It's not the kind of Jaime's rebellion: backstabbing the king. But Jaime was/is not rebelling. He is just continuing to enforce this system. What do you expect for rebelion? What could he do? He is not Brienne. She has not his fury. He is not nice, not a good fellow to be with. He is kicking blindly in every direction. But he tries, his way, to destroy the system. No very helpful I agree. He is angry at this shame that are the vows. Not a good man. But for me it's better than the beatific fool too proud of himself.

[kissdbyfire]

17 hours ago, Odej said:

Which orders did he refuse to obey? Joffrey never comanded Sandor to beat Sansa in public. He did beat her when Joffrey showed Sansa Ned's head.

 

ACoK, Sansa III

"Of course he died, he had my quarrel in his throat. There was a woman throwing rocks, I got her as well, but only in the arm." Frowning, he lowered the crossbow. "I'd shoot you too, but if I do Mother says they'd kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you'll just be punished and we'll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn't yield. Dog, hit her."

"Let me beat her!" Ser Dontos shoved forward, tin armor clattering. He was armed with a "morningstar" whose head was a melon. My Florian. She could have kissed him, blotchy skin and broken veins and all. He trotted his broomstick around her, shouting "Traitor, traitor" and whacking her over the head with the melon. Sansa covered herself with her hands, staggering every time the fruit pounded her, her hair sticky by the second blow. People were laughing. The melon flew to pieces. Laugh, Joffrey, she prayed as the juice ran down her face and the front of her blue silk gown. Laugh and be satisfied.

Joffrey did not so much as snigger. "Boros. Meryn."

Joffrey tells Sandor to beat her, and Sandor never moves. Then Dontos says he’ll beat her, but the point is, Sandor just stands there after he’s ordered to beat her. I understand this open to interpretation, and there’s been thousands of discussions about this scene over the years. My interpretation is that Sandor, by not reacting to the order, is disobeying Joffrey even if in a more passive than active manner. I also have a feeling that Joffrey doesn’t order Sandor to best Sansa apart from this time b/c he’s at the very least concerned about Sandor not obeying him and him losing face as a result. 
 

But in the post you replied to I wasn’t really talking about Joffrey ordering Sandor to beat Sansa, but more about his usually more insolent and less obsequious attitude toward Joffrey and others in general. I know it’s not exactly open defiance or telling the king to go fuck himself, but it still is a lot more than others are willing to do. 

[Odej]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Joffrey tells Sandor to beat her, and Sandor never moves. Then Dontos says he’ll beat her, but the point is, Sandor just stands there after he’s ordered to beat her. I understand this open to interpretation, and there’s been thousands of discussions about this scene over the years. My interpretation is that Sandor, by not reacting to the order, is disobeying Joffrey even if in a more passive than active manner. I also have a feeling that Joffrey doesn’t order Sandor to best Sansa apart from this time b/c he’s at the very least concerned about Sandor not obeying him and him losing face as a result. 

Well, my interpretation of this scene is that Sandor don't even have time to move. Joffrey gave the order, but Dontos stepped forward precisely to prevent Sansa from suffering a more violent attack. And since Sandor slapped the girl at Joffrey's command when the three of them were alone, I don't think he would have disobeyed the king in the middle of the court.

 

Also, I think there's little point in insolence if in the end you end up doing what you're told.

[kissdbyfire]

16 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't see how he automatically becomes a better person by 'going against the status quo'.

Because no one is willing to challenge it, and it absolutely needs to be challenged. 

16 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Personally, I very much doubt that Barristan would have gone after the butcher's boy and murdered him if Robert ordered him to do so. He didn't commit any despicable acts but watched despicable acts being committed - which the Hound also did in AGOT and ACOK (even if he comforted Sansa) and only quitted when Tyrion ordered him to fight in the face of fire.

True. But that’s exactly the argument made by hypocrites. 

16 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

He developed later, but so did Barristan - he observed Dany before revealing himself to her and after Dany disappeared in ADWD acted on what he thinks is right.

Yes, it seems Barristan is finally acknowledging things from his past, and good for him. I did mention this in the OP. And the fact that he is doing it and how he has a different attitude now is basically an indictment of his past.

16 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but this idea that the Hound (who murdered a child with no regret, when he had the opportunity to report it to Robert) or Jaime (whose selfishness caused a war and he still doesn't take responsibility for it) are better people than Barristan seems ridiculous. Yes, they are more open-minded but that doesn't make them better, because they are generally less decent and most of their criticism of the knighthood is just talk, not act - it's Brienne who acts like a true knight should.

Sandor did come to regret, not just Mycah but many other things. Same goes for Jaime, and truth be told, Barristan regrets some of his past actions - or inactions- as well. And given all of their ages and how long they’ve been at it, I could argue that both Jaime and Sandor came to question themselves and regret previous actions much more promptly than Barristan. 

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

It’s a very modern idea that the worst, perhaps only real, sin is hypocrisy, and that a person who is openly and unashamedly wicked is better than a person who professes ideals that he does not live up to.

I agree with the gist here, but not everything. I don’t think someone who is openly and unashamedly wicked is better because they’re not hypocrites. 
Because we see both Sandor and Jaime think about some of their action, we see them question themselves and admit to mistakes, even show regret. So, it’s not like they’re [still] saying, “I’m a monster but at least my monstrosity is in full display for all to see”. 

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

And, it’s quite wrong.  Nobody, however virtuous, lives up to their professed ideals.  But, it’s still better to have standards than not to have them.

I don’t think it’s wrong. I don’t believe the answers are that easy, to be honest. And I’ll admit that my disheartening opinion on the current state of affairs in our world is probably colouring my absolute contempt for hypocrisy. 
I do wholeheartedly agree w/ the bolded. 

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Barristan failed to live up to his professed standards.  But, he’s still a better man than the Hound is. The Hound is a tormented, sympathetic, figure, but he is also a common murderer.  

Here I disagree. But argument can be made that both are flawed individuals who have come to question themselves and will become better people for it. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It's not the kind of Jaime's rebellion: backstabbing the king. But Jaime was/is not rebelling. He is just continuing to enforce this system.

Jaime never rebelled indeed. And he never actually 'killed the king' even if he did ... he killed a guy who was dead meat already, a man who had lost his war and his crown already. Jaime failed at the most crucial test of a KG most spectacularly. The litmus test is if you stay true to the king when all the odds are against him. Betraying him then is quite easy, especially if your dad's troops are outside and want to kill the king.

Jaime actually killing Aerys - or trying to kill him - for the benefit of some poor fellow who was burned alive. Or perhaps even for the benefit of the cowardly queen who apparently never tried to help Rhaegar to depose the guy nor ever made any such attempts herself. That would have been brave. But gleefully murdering a guy who is actually about to die just so you can enjoy the deed yourself is the action of an asshole. Which is what Jaime is.

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

What do you expect for rebelion? What could he do? He is not Brienne. She has not his fury. He is not nice, not a good fellow to be with. He is kicking blindly in every direction. But he tries, his way, to destroy the system. No very helpful I agree. He is angry at this shame that are the vows. Not a good man. But for me it's better than the beatific fool too proud of himself.

I don't see that. He does exactly the same thing as knightly thugs without pretending to be an honorable guy. But guess what - not all knights are thugs, not even all of the knights in Joffrey's employ. This 'system' is not rotten all that much. Of course monarchy as such is a rotten form of government, but there is no alternative to it in that world that we know of.

The idea that Gregor being able to be a knight proves somehow 'the chivalry system is rotten' is like saying one case of corruption in a parliamentary democracy means democracy doesn't work. I get why Sandor is hating the notion of Gregor being a knight ... but his conclusion there is utter nonsense. As is his silly assumption that all lords must be like Tywin.

The truth is - most knights are not thugs like Gregor. But they are, of course, instruments of war and part of the ruling class, and not champions of the innocents or other such nonsense.

Also - Sandor is actually worse than a guy who pretends to be a nice guy but does some thuggery when asked to. His mind and actions are all about being cruel in word and deed. That sets a very bad example and influences his environment in a bad way.

And again - Barristan Selmy is a great man. Saving Aerys from Duskendale was a great feat and saved lives back then. The guy could not know what would happen after. And guarding a king who loses his mind is tough ... but Barristan watched atrocities the king and his government and his court committed and approved of. It was never his place or job or duty to overthrow the king he had sworn to protect. And it is actually quite silly to pretend he could have done that.

Anyone actually killing Aerys before the moment when the cowardly Lannister murdered him would have died a very painful, very ugly death for it. Is that the duty of a knight, to break his KG vows to murder a king so some people who might be innocent - or not - might live? I see no reason why Barristan should die so Brandon and Rickard Stark or this or that pompous nobleman who bit the dust under Aerys II could live.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

50 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because no one is willing to challenge it, and it absolutely needs to be challenged. 

The right way to challenge the system is to change it for the better. You won’t be able to do that by being a grumpy drunkard like the Hound. 

Sandor on the Quiet Isle is off to a promising start, though.

[Curled Finger]

Ah @kissdbyfire, brilliant discussion.  For my part, I see a disconnect not between vows and morality but between people and their job descriptions.  It is natural for human beings to grow and deepen and become enlightened in the mechanical, automated performance of every day duties.  They find shortcuts as a matter of efficiency and in that efficiency they perfect their duties.  In that perfection of duties their understanding will also become more perfect.  This is what I see in characters such as our knights, the soldiers Lannister, Selmy, Clegane, Brienne and Snow.  At their posts long enough, under enough stress, with enough moral fortitude and experience to change with their jobs.  There are no perfect people.  There are no perfect soldiers.  Cyborgs are required for that.  

In the case of Selmy, a daring and near perfect knight, perhaps the man needed to fall in love from afar to discover the rage that spurred him to ultimately reject retirement and cross the world to find a queen he could give himself completely to.  His unrealized love for Dayne being the spark that drove his old man's heart to new heights of daring he was so famous for in his youth.   He was a kingsguard.  He will always be a defensive soldier.  That is his job.  The difference now is he does it for love instead of glory.  This is the evolution of his heart and mind and his understanding of the meaning of his vows.  

I think this can be applied to all our subjects in their ways.  The experiences they all share is perhaps being knights of a fashion, vows taken or not, and finding someone they love.  Clegane found Sansa and Arya, little girls to love and protect despite his disdain for knights.  Brienne found Jamie whom she detested and vice versa, bringing out the very best in each other.   Jon loved Ygritte beyond the boundaries of his vows and learned to love a nation of people for it.  One cannot overestimate the power of love nor the transformative power it holds over even a knight's mind.  

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And again - Barristan Selmy is a great man

This world is a meat grinder. If it needs the Others to break it, so be it. I'll cheer them. Barristan is oiling the gears while Sandor is kicking, trying to derail it (if unwittingly). I have hopes for Sandor. Not so for Barrisan who I find disappointing, for his smugness. Despite his place of respect, he helps nothing. I don't ask him to die charging windmills. But at least to think ... a bit.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sandor did come to regret, not just Mycah but many other things. Same goes for Jaime, and truth be told, Barristan regrets some of his past actions - or inactions- as well. And given all of their ages and how long they’ve been at it, I could argue that both Jaime and Sandor came to question themselves and regret previous actions much more promptly than Barristan. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, they might regret their previous actions more, but that's because they did worse things than Barristan. Passively watching an atrocity happen when you have little power to stop it is not as bad as committing the atrocity yourself out of your own volition.

The problem is that for all their regret, they do not really start acting on a moral high ground when left to their own. Sandor digs graves in peace, while Jaime still reinforces the Lannister subjugation in the Riverlands and threatens to catapult babies. Meanwhile, Barristan overthrows Hizdahr and prepares to fight slavers while forbidding the Shavepate from comitting atrocities.   

Edited October 1, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

This world is a meat grinder. If it needs the Others to break it, so be it. I'll cheer them. Barristan is oiling the gears while Sandor is kicking, trying to derail it (if unwittingly). I have hopes for Sandor. Not so for Barrisan who I find disappointing, for his smugness. Despite his place of respect, he helps nothing. I don't ask him to die charging windmills. But at least to think ... a bit.

The Others won't break anything.

Sandor doesn't fight against a system, neither wittingly nor unwittingly. He might get a good death, perhaps even for a worthy cause, but nothing more.

[BalerionTheCat]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Others won't break anything.

Really? I find you optimistic. Is Old Nan stories only wind?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Gregor being able to be a knight proves somehow 'the chivalry system is rotten' is like saying one case of corruption in a parliamentary democracy means democracy doesn't work.

I completely agree here. It’s Sandor’s subjective opinion, which is based on his deeply personal experiences. It’s not an objective fact.

[kissdbyfire]

The idea that Gregor is the only rotten knight is what is truly insane. It’s most certainly not one corrupt MP or congressperson among hundreds of honest ones. It’s probably worse than the current House of Commons or MAGA held House of Representatives. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Meanwhile, Barristan overthrows Hizdahr and prepares to fight slavers while forbidding the Shavepate from comitting atrocities.   

That’s a fair point. Maybe Barristan will finally become a knight half as good as the non-knight Dunk.