Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[IlyaP]

10 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

And no, of aliens invade, slavery wouldn't suddenly become ok. I'm sure there will be people who will compromise with slavers, but I don't think I'd read a story about them as heroes, honestly. Nor would I personally make that choice. I'd rather die at the hands of unknown aliens than work with known monsters who plan to continue being monsters. 

Quick question: the bolded bit - a typo, I'm guessing? Was trying to read this and I don't know what you intended to say. (Sorry.)

[IlyaP]

10 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Seanchan are current, active slavers. And the books end with them actively enslaving the (female) villains left alive, and we're supposed to be cheering on, I think? That's utter horseshit, not good writing. 

Fucking hell. It's been ages since I read AMoL (mainly when it was published), is that actually how it ends?! I confess I don't remember much from the last three books as I only read them once (unlike the original 11 books, which I reread a million times in high school.)

[fionwe1987]

Just now, IlyaP said:

Fucking hell. It's been ages since I read AMoL (mainly when it was published), is that actually how it ends?! I confess I don't remember much from the last three books as I only read them once (unlike the original 11 books, which I reread a million times in high school.)

Yep.  They capture Moghedien. We're informed they've been told they can't take anyone who was Aes Sedai, and since she isn't wearing one of those rings, they take her to Ebou Dar.

Firstly, one every female channeler on the Light's side in the battlefield wore a ring, so this is, I hope, a mistake. If not, yes, the Light won a great victory and decided it's ok to enslave the losers. 

 

[fionwe1987]

8 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Quick question: the bolded bit - a typo, I'm guessing? Was trying to read this and I don't know what you intended to say. (Sorry.)

Yep, typo. Edited. 

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Oh - I agree about Mat. I was talking more about Rand and Egwene holding their nose. Mat has a personal relationship that he values more than his morals. Sorry, can't love a person who is gleefully a slaver if you actually believe that slavery is immoral in your core. He made his choice. I feel like perhaps we're supposed to maybe think that Mat was trapped into the marriage and now that Tuon is pregnant Mat is dispensable and has to sit straight around her to keep his head? However, that is not at all what we get from him regarding her, so no.

I assume you're talking about Aviendha's visions with the fighting back? Mainly I just mean fighting them ideologically rather than physically. A long term project to be sure, but I'm mainly thinking they can find a way to work with them while the world is at stake, and then worry about fixing the mess from where they now stand (because they are still standing). Avi's the only one who knows that vision though, right? And she thinks she may have altered that vision?

Digging into my teenage memories here, but as a teen reading these books, I wondered if RJ's long-game was to have the Seanchan Empire be driven into civil war and collapse from the realisation that the heads of the empire and their entire slavery system was built around a COLOSSAL lie and inescapable hypocrisy, and would result in some kind of factionalisation and anti-slavers coming to the fore, taking out the leadership, and then allying with Rand and co to face the Dark One while the slavers were 86'd and the empire dismantled in favor of some new government body or structure. 

As with you, I just never understood the Matt/Tuon thing, and RJ being a "southern gentleman", I did sometimes wonder, if he was riffing or something on the US civil war and its slavers past, with Matt being some kind of fulcrum for change, by getting Tuon to see the obvious evils in which she was participating and become a driving force for change. 

Clearly that didn't happen and I just don't know why. Compromising with slavery just doesn't seem to make any moral or narrative sense, even in the context of "the enemy of my enemy" and "for the greater good" and whatnot. Having a character make that kind of moral flip and compromise when they'd been written otherwise across 11 earlier novels strikes me as confusing, and makes me wonder what the hell Harriet and Brandon were doing. 

[Slurktan]

13 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, I'm not a slaver. Some remote ancestor of mine probably was, but that isn't the issue here. The Seanchan are current, active slavers. And the books end with them actively enslaving the (female) villains left alive, and we're supposed to be cheering on, I think? That's utter horseshit, not good writing. 

When/if the show gets here, I hope they liberally change things and actually address the issue. 

Did I call you one? Maybe try responding to the question.

Also why are we supposed to cheer that in the books?  I didn't.

Also in your alien scenario if you would just let them win I sincerely hope you personally are never put into a position of authority. Like legitimately. That is frightening.

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Did I call you one? Maybe try responding to the question.

You said "At one point or another everybody is a slaver." I'm not sure how I don't count as one among "everybody". 

3 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Also why are we supposed to cheer that in the books?  I didn't.

Well certainly, if you read Mat's cheery final scene with Tuon and the announcement of an heir as Aludra puts up a forewords display in the sky above, as below, the sul'dam comb through the battlefield for new damane... It is dystopic, but nothing in the tone of the ending suggests so to me. You may read it otherwise, but in a book series that talks about the horrors of using evil to fight evil, that felt like miss, to me. 

3 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Also in your alien scenario if you would just let them win I sincerely hope you personally are never put into a position of authority. Like legitimately. That is frightening.

I sincerely hope so too. I have no interest at all in spinning up spur of the moment justifications in a running trolley problem such a scenario promises. 

I'll resist the aliens. And I'll free any slaves I can. If leadership comes at the cost of accepting the enslavement of others, I don't want it. 

[Maia]

 

 

On 10/9/2023 at 5:18 PM, IFR said:

 If problems with the magic system occurred in the books, it escaped my notice. Can you give some examples?

Where to begin? First of all, there are just complete ass-pulls when people other than Rand just channel whatever complex weaves "instinctively". Like Nynaeve randomly whipping out balefire or Avi Travelling. Or when people come up with "impossible" channeling applications right, left and center. Which are first explained by the 3rd Age channelers ignorance and hide-boundness, but then this also extends to the AoLers.  It is clear that for all the pretense that channeling was a science back in AoL, no understanding of theory is  needed to come up with new discoveries. Just instinct, grit, and other euphemisms for arbitrariness. 

But the greatest culprit is, of course, the difference between female and male channeling. For 8 books we have been told how fundamentally different their weaves were, to the extent that even thinking about how the other gender did certain things makes channelers uneasy ... and then it turned out that it is actually trivial for people in a link to weave the opposite half of OP. In fact, they learned it far quicker than channeling with their native power! Gates that are done so differently between men and women? A piece of cake to make one in a mixed link, using both halves of OP. Etc. And to be clear, I am talking about channelers other than Rand here. 

Travelling - introduced as a lost Talent, then turned  into something that anybody strong enough could learn and some people could do instinctively(!), but required the user to spend some time familiarising themselves with their starting point,  then that people too weak to use it normally could still learn and use it with links and angreals, then they didn't even need to "learn the ground" to Travel within their line of sight, then Travelling to a spot let you automatically "know ground" and immediately open another Gate, then people too weak to use it could still  learn the weave and teach it to others. So having lost practically all it's initial limitations how could this  skill so useful for survival have ever become "lost", huh? 

It is similar with the a'dam - in TGH Egwene and other damane are the ones required to embrace saidar and actually channel - hence brutal "training", so that they would obey immediately and without question. But in KoD (or CoT?) when Tuon briefly collared the 3 AS she didn't need their cooperation to either make them embace saidar or weave, she did it all herself. 

Oh, and BTW, Egwene in TGH was able to channel independantly a little even with the collar on, when sul'dam wasn't wearing the bracelet. 

 

On 10/9/2023 at 8:50 PM, IFR said:

 Rand fights Ishamael in the sky, utilizing the sword training the writers had the foresight to provide.

 

But wasn't it a very silly scene in the book? Why did Ishy, and AoL channeler with TP at his fingertips duel Rand with a _staff_? 

 

[Corvinus85]

I wonder if Padan Fain will go to the Two Rivers next season as per the book. The incentive for him to do so is still there, but less so than in the book. And it's linked more with Mat outmaneuvering him in the season finale than his burning desire to seek revenge against Rand. Therefore, I'm also wondering if Mat will go to the Two Rivers with Perrin, but then somehow still travel later to Rhuidean. We're speculating that the Finn aren't in the show, but there might be a way for them to be in it. Mat could enter the Tower of Ghenjei and come out the red door in Rhuidean. (or be taken out the red door by the Eelfinn and hanged from the tree in Rhuidean)

[IFR]

51 minutes ago, Maia said:

But wasn't it a very silly scene in the book? Why did Ishy, and AoL channeler with TP at his fingertips duel Rand with a _staff_?

Because he wanted a martial combat? He was insane.

But I'll grant you, it's not a satisfying explanation. I think it presents far less of a problem than how the show sets things up though.

First of all, the show also was fairly ridiculous for the same reason. Ishamael, one of the most powerful wielders of One Power in history, is just flinging the same fireballs at Egwene? And Egwene, a novice who is less powerful than even Nynaeve, resists? The showrunner said that Ishamael gave up. But why the pantomime? It was incredibly obvious at that point no one was turning to the dark if he just allowed himself to be matched by a novice.

And really, Ishamael should have been aware of the nature of the dagger and that it instantly killed people. Letting Rand get stabbed is so stupid if he didn't want Rand to be killed, and only worked out because the mechanics of the dagger are incoherent. And if he did want Rand to be killed, then why waste time with that pantomime with Egwene, and instead eliminate them both?

So on this point alone, the show did not make more sense, and was actually worse than the book.

But due to the other changes, the show makes even less sense.

In the books, Callandor was pretty indisputable evidence that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.

In the show, why should anyone but Moiraine believe Rand is the Dragon Reborn? Oh, he was one of the people who could channel who was on the tower when she did her dragon trick. The prophecy was so easily achieved - it's unbelievable no one has pulled that trick before - that it's crazy common people will be fooled by this, much less Aes Sedai, who should be aware that this was the result of a woman channeling and pretty easily pin it on Moiraine with any kind of investigation. And they would want to believe that it is a woman who is the Dragon Reborn, so why would Rand being the DR have any credibility?

This event also throws into question power mechanics. Since Egwene did a pretty good job resisting Ishamael, is Nynaeve on equal footing with he and Rand? More powerful than either of them? Lanfear hasn't had any difficulty with anyone, is she more powerful than Ishamael?

I'll grant you, the scene in the book was campy and a somewhat ridiculous, but the show made it a hundred times worse.

[Arakasi]

It’s clear Ishamael wasn’t going at full power there. He is playing the long game and for him the victory is turning Rand to the dark. He had zero interest in defeating him there. Getting Rand injured helps that.

On the matter of the dragon well there is the clear fact the horn was blown. Putting a dragon up or having a vision in the sky can both be conjured by the power. Blowing the horn can not. The dragon showing is just the cherry on top. The main thing that shows that this was a momentous event and that the dragon is here is the horn being blown and the heroes of the horn coming. And those guys dispersed to the city so everyone there knows it happened.

[Corvinus85]

Small castings news for season 3. Marin al'Vere has been recast. https://thedirect.com/article/wheel-of-time-season-3-recast-character

Rina Mahoney takes over the role of Egwene's mother.

[IFR]

8 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

It’s clear Ishamael wasn’t going at full power there. He is playing the long game and for him the victory is turning Rand to the dark. He had zero interest in defeating him there. Getting Rand injured helps that.

He plays the long game by relying on the dagger's nonsensical rules, letting a novice stand against him, and essentially demonstrating how weak and toothless the Forsaken are? Interesting ploy.

9 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

On the matter of the dragon well there is the clear fact the horn was blown. Putting a dragon up or having a vision in the sky can both be conjured by the power. Blowing the horn can not. The dragon showing is just the cherry on top. The main thing that shows that this was a momentous event and that the dragon is here is the horn being blown and the heroes of the horn coming. And those guys dispersed to the city so everyone there knows it happened.

The way it was presented in the show, some warriors poofed into existence, killed a few Seachan and poofed out to kill a few more. They appeared in tight corridors. Some people may have seen this and been able to correctly attribute the source, but this was poorly presented in the show.

Even giving this the most charitable interpretation possible, that somehow everyone saw and understood that these were heroes of the Horn, how does this signify anything for Rand? He was a random guy on the tower with the dragon. There were also three women who could channel, and several other women who could channel around the city.

It's quite a leap to say that people naturally come to the conclusion that Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

There's no leap at all to say the guy holding Callandor is the Dragon Reborn - the same guy whose features were clearly painted across the sky for eveyone to see for miles.

I cannot see how this is a controversial point. You really think that the show has effectively establised things so Rand is virtually indisputable as the Dragon Reborn, Whitecloak extremists aside?

[Arakasi]

Look it’s clear nothing will ever satisfy you and you just take things at the shallowest possible interpretation. For example the heroes they have a visual look that shows them to be superhuman. They were seen around the town. Tales will spread that the heroes were seen and that will reinforce the Rand legend. If that’s not enough for you then you’re just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. The dagger was shown to be very lethal and that will explain why they can’t heal it. Very few people will care why a weapon kills a random baddie but not the main character.  That happens all the time in both written and filmed media. Once again just pointless nitpicking.
 

It’s just not worth it discussing with you Fionwe says.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Arakasi

[IFR]

38 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Look it’s clear nothing will ever satisfy you and you just take things at the shallowest possible interpretation. For example the heroes they have a visual look that shows them to be superhuman. They were seen around the town. Tales will spread that the heroes were seen and that will reinforce the Rand legend. If that’s not enough for you then you’re just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. The dagger was shown to be very lethal and that will explain why they can’t heal it. Very few people will care why a weapon kills a random baddie but not the main character.  That happens all the time in both written and filmed media. Once again just pointless nitpicking.
 

It’s just not worth it discussing with you Fionwe says.

Good writing would satisfy me.

Look, it's fine to agree to disagree. But I assure you I am not nitpicking. I think your desire to like the show prejudices you into viewing major holes in the plot and logic of the show as nitpicking.

One could look at season 8 of Game of Thrones, point out how stupid it is for Tyrion (the smart one) to take everyone into the crypts where the dead lie while they are under siege by an entity that has the capability of raising the dead, but someone who likes that show could accuse them of nitpicking.

As I said, even with the charitable interpretation of everyone believing the heroes of the Horn had been summoned, what does this have to do with Rand? There are many, many candidates to the Dragon Reborn present in Falme when this occurs. No one would want their savior to be someone who will go mad and kill them when it's possible a woman could be the Dragon Reborn.

People obviously do care about the mechanics of the show, because I'm not the only one who has pointed out the problem with the dagger. People who like the show and choose to ignore the flaws may not care. But that is different from the issue of the dagger being a legitimate criticism.

[Arakasi]

It’s not terribly legitimate. It’s just fishing for things to complain about. Do I complain when I watch my favorite action movie that one thing kills the badguys while the same thing only hurts or sometimes barely inconveniences the good guys? Not really the hero is the hero they get to survive those things. This is heroic fantasy the good guys get special rules. It was the same in the books.

As for the dragon even in the books no one was really sure who the dragon was that was non local. Just that there was a fight over Falme and that big stuff had happened. It was the Callandor later that we’ll probably get on season four that solidified it. But they’ll think someone on that tower is the dragon. (So one of those six) I’m sure next episode that word will be reinforced and they’ll be told Rand is the dragon.

So to your two complaints here the dagger has shown to be very lethal which will explain the non healing and the hero being the hero means he survives it but isn’t healed. (He survived the lethal dagger in the books as well) And Moiraine and co will tell the city next episode who the dragon is. So yeah I don’t think either of these criticisms matter. I’m much more open to Moiraine breaking the 3 paths and what that entails since that actually matters.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Arakasi

[IFR]

56 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

As for the dragon even in the books no one was really sure who the dragon was that was non local. Just that there was a fight over Falme and that big stuff had happened. It was the Callandor later that we’ll probably get on season four that solidified it. But they’ll think someone on that tower is the dragon. (So one of those six) I’m sure next episode that word will be reinforced and they’ll be told Rand is the dragon.

So to your two complaints here the dagger has shown to be very lethal which will explain the non healing and the hero being the hero means he survives it but isn’t healed. (He survived the lethal dagger in the books as well) And Moiraine and co will tell the city next episode who the dragon is. So yeah I don’t think either of these criticisms matter. I’m much more open to Moiraine breaking the 3 paths and what that entails since that actually matters.

I think we can agree that we'll have to wait to see how it's handled in the show. I think the situation itself is completely absurd, and I speculate that it will be as you said, that Moiraine will proclaim Rand as the Dragon and people will be dumb enough that this will suffice, but the writers may surprise me. Perhaps even Moiraine violating the three oaths will get its explanation in line with the logic of the show. They'll note that if it's a sunny day in Falme on Tuesday then that is a blindspot for the Oath Rod and Aes Sedai are free to do as they wish. Or something.

[IFR]

Sanderson just did his live reaction for the season finale. He shares a lot of the complaints I have, but rather than focus on mechanistic problems (though he did point those out, too, especially Mat and his dagger), his focus was on what he viewed as the mishandling of themes and characters.

I thought he had a lot of worthwhile insights.

He was also more generous to the show than I am, because he did find some positive qualities he thinks the show did right (unlike me, I don't think he's watching it with the same perspective of watching The Room).

Edited October 13, 2023 by IFR

[Arakasi]

No that was a **** show. He just came in and spent 70 minutes blasting the show. Constantly talking over Mat and telling him he’s wrong. Not a surprise since his books were far weaker than Jordans. I expect Mat to come on later and be more positive now that he’s watched it without Brandon talking over everything. And tbh if how Brandon acted there was anything like his interactions with the show writers it’s no surprise he was ignored. You get more flies with honey than vinegar after all.

Most people watching the show did comment about just how unprofessional he was and how he was determined to bash everything. Also ofc hasn’t even watched all the episodes either. Mats community is full of WoT readers and it’s pretty clear the majority of them support the show and don’t share Brandon’s opinions. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Arakasi

[IFR]

14 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

No that was a **** show. He just came in and spent 70 minutes blasting the show. Constantly talking over Mat and telling him he’s wrong. Not a surprise since his books were far weaker than Jordans. I expect Mat to come on later and be more positive now that he’s watched it without Brandon talking over everything. And tbh if how Brandon acted there was anything like his interactions with the show writers it’s no surprise he was ignored. You get more flies with honey than vinegar after all.

Most people watching the show did comment about just how unprofessional he was and how he was determined to bash everything. Also ofc hasn’t even watched all the episodes either. Mats community is full of WoT readers and it’s pretty clear the majority of them support the show and don’t share Brandon’s opinions. 

That's fine.

Regardless of your views of Sanderson's opinions, I thought it was interesting and I appreciate Sanderson for being so frank.

When I watched that reaction video, it certainly wasn't to see two random fans smile and clap at something I've already watched. It was for the co-author of the series to give his thoughts and opinions on the show that is adapting The Wheel of Time. Which is what happened.