Theon Greyjoy

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

So, I am rereading ADwD now, and I want to have an ongoing conversation about Theon as I read his chapters. I realize this is a bit unusual, but considering his chapters are my single favorite PoV from any book, and in my opinion the best writing I've ever read...I'd like to discuss it. 

Okay, my first note : GRRM right away has Theon be a bit more honest about his feelings than he was in ACoK. In ACoK, so much of Theon's personality is based on suppressing what he really wanted, trying to be liked and not understanding the basics of how to be liked by either the Ironborn or the Northerners. He was a captive from an early age, and I think it has warped what he thinks is "normal". One example I can think of is him consistently not understanding why the Winterfell .....workers/people who live there, don't like him. I think this is because Theon was a captive...and he liked his captors. He liked the Starks. He expects others to like him even though he captured them, because that is what he did. There is also a constant theme in ACoK of Theon wanting acceptance (either by the Starks or by his own family). 

Moving on to the first chapter of ADwD, the big line I want to point out is this one :

"He remembered a time when he had thought that Lord Eddard might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child's fantasy."

Theon here is finally admitting to himself what he actually wanted. In ACoK, he basically spends most of his time denying that he is a Stark/wants to be a Stark. Right away, we see that (perhaps influenced by his torture) he is being more honest in ADwD about what he wanted. I think also because this is when he was a child that Theon probably always hated/disliked his family (which is not shocking, there is a suggestion of abuse from his older brothers, and Balon himself is extremely unloving/emotionally abusive to Theon). I would guess Theon envied how Eddard and Catelyn treated their children in comparison to how he had been treated before. 

Anyways, here is my intro. I'll be probably making one or two comments after each chapter, join me and talk about whatever you want, but I just find these chapters so freaking interesting. 

[sifth]

I always feel conflicted when it comes to Theon. I both love and hate the character at the same time.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, sifth said:

I always feel conflicted when it comes to Theon. I both love and hate the character at the same time.

I feel conflicted in ACoK, because I hate literally everything he does. But after ADwD came out, I just can't hate Theon. I think he is just Sandor Clegane in a very different package. The result of a world where hate/torture/brutality kind of goes unchecked, and children grow up without really understanding right from wrong. Much like I feel empathy for Sandor despite the horrible things he does, I feel the same for Theon. And considering Theon's actions directly contributed to the Stark's defeat (and I love the Starks), I think that just shows what a great writer GRRM is. He convinced me to like a character that I absolutely hated for 4 out of the 5 books of the series. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I'm sure you're already aware, but just in case, there is a really deep dive into these 4 chapters done up, oh a decade or so ago called the Winterfell Huis Clos by bran vras. His analysis isn't perfect and some of his conclusions are in contrast to popularly accepted theories, but he's very thorough and does a great job of summarizing all of the particular players in Bolton's Winterfell, highlighting all of the various ties and conflicts between them and makes his own stabs at deciphering the Pink Letter.  I'm not sold on all of his conclusions, but just as an encyclopedia of Theon's Dance chapters and the various motives and backgrounds of the cast I find it to be a valuable read.

[Lee-Sensei]

10 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

So, I am rereading ADwD now, and I want to have an ongoing conversation about Theon as I read his chapters. I realize this is a bit unusual, but considering his chapters are my single favorite PoV from any book, and in my opinion the best writing I've ever read...I'd like to discuss it. 

Okay, my first note : GRRM right away has Theon be a bit more honest about his feelings than he was in ACoK. In ACoK, so much of Theon's personality is based on suppressing what he really wanted, trying to be liked and not understanding the basics of how to be liked by either the Ironborn or the Northerners. He was a captive from an early age, and I think it has warped what he thinks is "normal". One example I can think of is him consistently not understanding why the Winterfell .....workers/people who live there, don't like him. I think this is because Theon was a captive...and he liked his captors. He liked the Starks. He expects others to like him even though he captured them, because that is what he did. There is also a constant theme in ACoK of Theon wanting acceptance (either by the Starks or by his own family). 

Moving on to the first chapter of ADwD, the big line I want to point out is this one :

"He remembered a time when he had thought that Lord Eddard might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child's fantasy."

Theon here is finally admitting to himself what he actually wanted. In ACoK, he basically spends most of his time denying that he is a Stark/wants to be a Stark. Right away, we see that (perhaps influenced by his torture) he is being more honest in ADwD about what he wanted. I think also because this is when he was a child that Theon probably always hated/disliked his family (which is not shocking, there is a suggestion of abuse from his older brothers, and Balon himself is extremely unloving/emotionally abusive to Theon). I would guess Theon envied how Eddard and Catelyn treated their children in comparison to how he had been treated before. 

Anyways, here is my intro. I'll be probably making one or two comments after each chapter, join me and talk about whatever you want, but I just find these chapters so freaking interesting. 

I wouldn't say that Theon hated or disliked his family. He remembers Aeron fondly and Asha implies that they got along well. He hated his brothers and his father was cold and distant. Probably because he already had two older sons. He also loved Dagmer and his mother certainly loved him (it's really upsetting that he didn't visit her before going to leaving).

Edited October 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'm sure you're already aware, but just in case, there is a really deep dive into these 4 chapters done up, oh a decade or so ago called the Winterfell Huis Clos by bran vras. His analysis isn't perfect and some of his conclusions are in contrast to popularly accepted theories, but he's very thorough and does a great job of summarizing all of the particular players in Bolton's Winterfell, highlighting all of the various ties and conflicts between them and makes his own stabs at deciphering the Pink Letter.  I'm not sold on all of his conclusions, but just as an encyclopedia of Theon's Dance chapters and the various motives and backgrounds of the cast I find it to be a valuable read.

I think I've read that one. It's similar to the Great Northern Conspiracy right? Where all the Northern houses essentially are plotting against the Boltons? 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I feel conflicted in ACoK, because I hate literally everything he does. But after ADwD came out, I just can't hate Theon. I think he is just Sandor Clegane in a very different package. The result of a world where hate/torture/brutality kind of goes unchecked, and children grow up without really understanding right from wrong. Much like I feel empathy for Sandor despite the horrible things he does, I feel the same for Theon. And considering Theon's actions directly contributed to the Stark's defeat (and I love the Starks), I think that just shows what a great writer GRRM is. He convinced me to like a character that I absolutely hated for 4 out of the 5 books of the series. 

I'm not there yet, but I know a lot of people are. I need Theon to do something truly heroic before I can feel bad for him. Even saving Jeyne is something he only did at spear point. Until I see Theon do something truly good, of his own free will, I can't like the guy.

All that being said, his chapters in ADWD were AMAZING. Possibly the best chapters in the book.

Edited October 25, 2023 by sifth

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Theon's ADwD chapter 2 thoughts : Actually not that much. However, the one thing I did think was that Theon is kind of the male version of Sansa. He had a lot of unrealistic dreams that were heavily influenced by his culture and what he was taught was "right". Most of his memories in this chapter about the beauty of going off to war (something that we got from Catelyn's more realistic perspective rather than Theon's innocent/idealized version). Much like Sansa, Theon's idealized dreams also led to him making poor decisions. Sansa "loved" a monster, and Theon was loyal to one (his father). 

Also, unrelated to Theon - But what Ramsay does to the Ironborn seems...to basically be another red wedding right? He gives them food and murders them (breaking hospitality yet again). Also, it's just horrific. They are human beings and no one cares about them. Honestly, with what is happening in Palestine right now and the West's general reaction to it, it was a hard chapter to read. Why we as humans so often right off other humans as long as they are slightly different to them..is beyond me. Sorry, not sorry, I'm anti-war, what can I say? 

On a writing note, I love the juxtaposition that GRRM uses here. He puts Theon's beautiful memories of war right next to the realities of war. It's very good writing, as all of Theon's chapters are. 

P.s. I think we often talk about young girl's fantasies as "innocent", but because young boy's fantasies are...more brutal?, we don't refer to them the same way. I used the word "innocent" for Theon's thought about war and conquest, and I think it's accurate. Whatever Catelyn said about the knights of summer (god I love Catelyn, lol). 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[sweetsunray]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, sifth said:

I always feel conflicted when it comes to Theon. I both love and hate the character at the same time.

I consider Theon/Reek to be George's Smeagol/Gollum, but without a ring to blame it on.

He's callous from the get go of the series, and in aCoK we see it's a warped form of callousness combined with the naivity bordering that of 12 year old Sansa. What Ramsay did to him was horrible, and it breaks my heart for him. I am as much marveled and overjoyed as him when the gods know his name as he is. And I hope he will make some more self-risking choices. I even believe he will have two more. But ultimately I dare not trust him and I am not convinced he is capable of self-sacrifice (which imo goes beyond self-risking). Both as Reek and as Theon2.0 he still has a disturbing callous mean streak.

[Lee-Sensei]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I consider Theon/Reek to be George's Smeagol/Gollum, but without a ring to blame it on.

He's callous from the get go of the series, and in aCoK we see it's a warped form of callousness combined with the naivity bordering that of 12 year old Sansa. What Ramsay did to him was horrible, and it breaks my heart for him. I am as much marveled and overjoyed as him when the gods know his name as he is. And I hope he will make some more self-risking choices. I even believe he will have two more. But ultimately I dare not trust him and I am not convinced he is capable of self-sacrifice (which imo goes beyond self-risking). Both as Reek and as Theon2.0 he still has a disturbing callous mean streak.

I imagine that it comes from his ambiguous position as a hostage/ward. Theon has a line in ACOK about how he won't humble himself, because the world is so eager to do it for you. He probably used his status, his name and his highbirth as a shield from the truth of his situation, which he gradually begins to understand by the time that he talks to Ser Rodrik after taking Winterfell. In fact, one of the first lines that we get in ACOK is about how he's finally a free man and how the only banners around would be the kraken and not the direwolf. The way Asha described him on the Iron Islands, he was shy and meek. That's obviously not who he is 9 years later.

Quote

 

As Theon shrugged out of his wet cloak, the girl said, “You must be so happy to see your home again, milord. How many years have you been away?”

“Ten, or close as makes no matter,” he told her. “I was a boy of ten when I was taken to Winterfell as a ward of Eddard Stark.” A ward in name, a hostage in truth. Half his days a hostage… but no longer. His life was his own again, and nowhere a Stark to be seen.

 

He says this to the Captain's daughter while he's still on the ship. At this point he's still expecting to be welcomed home, so it's not just him trying to rewrite his feelings about his situation at Winterfell to justify the things that he does later. I'm sure that George wanted to examine the ways that this ward/hostage situation can mess people up. That's not to say that Ned did anything wrong. He's living by the rules of his society and he didn't really mistreat him, but being ripped away from your family and held hostage under threat of death is still not a great situation. While Asha was free and sailing the stepstones, Theon was in Winterfell as a hostage.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sweetsunray]

15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

he was shy and meek

Shy and meek does not necessarily mean he was a caring person. He's shy and meek as Reek too, but his thoughts are disturbingly mean and callous about everybody, except for Ramsay (for whom he has only terror). Yes, his arrogance is an act to himself and others to not show weakness in a situation where he is a hostage. But again, arrogance is not necessarily tied to callousness. I've participated in thread after thread after thread with Theon fans who love to psychoanalyse every minutae of his arc a decade ago. I have little to no intention to do so again. Instead I just prefer to make relevant observations about his state in the present and his book arc: his thoughts are mean and callous in aCoK as Theon, as Reek in aDwD and again as Theon both in aDwD and the excerpt of tWoW. Beyond that I prefer to remain in a literary comparison, hence smeagol/gollum. Gollum may be the openly plotting and raging persona, but it was meek and servile Smeagol who killed his "friend" for the ring. So, no amount of understanding, pity or analysis makes me trust Theon long term. And the mysoginy make Theon always an unpleasant POV read for me, as much as it does for me in the case of Tyrion and Cersei. Makes me feel icky.

But I thank you for your input

Edited October 29, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

his thoughts are mean and callous in aCoK as Theon, as Reek in aDwD and again as Theon both in aDwD and the excerpt of tWoW. Beyond that I prefer to remain in a literary comparison, hence smeagol/gollum. Gollum may be the openly plotting and raging persona, but it was meek and servile Smeagol who killed his "friend" for the ring. So, no amount of understanding, pity or analysis makes me trust Theon long term.

Cool comparison!
Would we be different? The great Borimer tried to kill Frodo for the ring too, "greater" "men" then Smeagol have done worse under the circumstances. It's undeniable that Smeagol lost the fight (Frodo does as well) but does Theon have to? 
Theres no Ring to blame it on, true, but the Ring is more then his creation, its his drive. Also theres plenty of things to blame past Theon's behavior on, like foremost being a child victim of human trafficking forced to carry his jailors weapon to all executions, primarily deserters. So who's who? At first look "you gotta remember your name" is a giveaway, but Reek is not Gollum. Like he doesnt remember his name and he eats rats and thats funny but Gollum is a beast and Smeagol is submissive. Theon was the beast, Reek is submissive. Theon would take Ramsay to the "spider", Reek would never. So perhaps it is unwise to trust Theon as easily and rewardingly Ramsay trusts Reek. After all, to remember his name, is Greyjoy (what is dead may never die but ... ) By and large and untrustworthy group

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cool comparison!
Would we be different? The great Borimer tried to kill Frodo for the ring too, "greater" "men" then Smeagol have done worse under the circumstances. It's undeniable that Smeagol lost the fight (Frodo does as well) but does Theon have to? 
Theres no Ring to blame it on, true, but the Ring is more then his creation, its his drive. Also theres plenty of things to blame past Theon's behavior on, like foremost being a child victim of human trafficking forced to carry his jailors weapon to all executions, primarily deserters. So who's who? At first look "you gotta remember your name" is a giveaway, but Reek is not Gollum. Like he doesnt remember his name and he eats rats and thats funny but Gollum is a beast and Smeagol is submissive. Theon was the beast, Reek is submissive. Theon would take Ramsay to the "spider", Reek would never. So perhaps it is unwise to trust Theon as easily and rewardingly Ramsay trusts Reek. After all, to remember his name, is Greyjoy (what is dead may never die but ... ) By and large and untrustworthy group

It's not so much the ring's seduction that is the point here by making the comparison to Smeagol/Gollum. It's the split identity and the expression of the personality, which does manifest itself in the WF chapters with strange time jumps. We go from breakfast to midday in on paragraph, and it's impossible to determine whether the conversation of some of the guards at the table over t-one of the mruders was during breakfast or lunch. So, it's as if he blacked out, between breakfast and lunch, and another persona took over. This certainly is inspired by Smeagol/Gollum, or Jeckyl/Hyde... but Smeagol and Gollum is more accurate, because Jeckyl/Hyde was white-black, while Smeagol/Gollum is dark grey to smoky black.

Reek is a beast too. Ramsay compares him constantly to a dog, and he's to sleep with the dogs.

Edited October 29, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lee-Sensei]

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Shy and meek does not necessarily mean he was a caring person. He's shy and meek as Reek too, but his thoughts are disturbingly mean and callous about everybody, except for Ramsay (for whom he has only terror). Yes, his arrogance is an act to himself and others to not show weakness in a situation where he is a hostage. But again, arrogance is not necessarily tied to callousness. I've participated in thread after thread after thread with Theon fans who love to psychoanalyse every minutae of his arc a decade ago. I have little to no intention to do so again. Instead I just prefer to make relevant observations about his state in the present and his book arc: his thoughts are mean and callous in aCoK as Theon, as Reek in aDwD and again as Theon both in aDwD and the excerpt of tWoW. Beyond that I prefer to remain in a literary comparison, hence smeagol/gollum. Gollum may be the openly plotting and raging persona, but it was meek and servile Smeagol who killed his "friend" for the ring. So, no amount of understanding, pity or analysis makes me trust Theon long term. And the mysoginy make Theon always an unpleasant POV read for me, as much as it does for me in the case of Tyrion and Cersei. Makes me feel icky.

But I thank you for your input

He's meek as Reek, but that I wouldn't call him shy. I guess my question is do we have evidence that he didn't care about anyone even when he was on the Iron Islands? Because his recollections about Dagmer, indicates that he cared about him. Asha says that she liked him better when he was 9. Do we get from her own recollections that he was always a callous person that only cared about himself? I'd think that if he was always the way he was in ACOK, she would have indicated it. It's possible that she just said that, because he was slightly less self centered and narcissistic. Or it could just be that he was a normal and shy kid that became worse as he grew into manhood at Winterfell.

I have no intention of making you or anyone else like him. There are many reasons to dislike him. People are entitled to feel however they want about the guy. I will push back against the removal of nuance to the character though. Instead preferring to see him as black and white. I also disagree about Reek being cruel still. I don't remember any cruel moments from him in the book, but it was a while ago that I read it. If you're not interested in that conversation though, that's fine.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Hugorfonics]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Reek is a beast too. Ramsay compares him constantly to a dog, and he's to sleep with the dogs

Not even a man, truth be told

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's the split identity and the expression of the personality, which does manifest itself in the WF chapters with strange time jumps. We go from breakfast to midday in on paragraph, and it's impossible to determine whether the conversation of some of the guards at the table over t-one of the mruders was during breakfast or lunch. So, it's as if he blacked out, between breakfast and lunch, and another persona took over.

So, Im not entirely sure what passage your refereeing to. Citation please?
But even without, this is a regular style of GRRM I think, which we see in Tyrion or Arya pov's for example. Tmk the only true "unreliable narrator" is Sansa and her unkiss and also Barri and his memory conflicting with documented events. (There was also that Vic scene where they burned his arm)

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not so much the ring's seduction that is the point here by making the comparison to Smeagol/Gollum. It's the split identity and the expression of the personality, which does manifest itself in the WF chapters with strange time jumps. We go from breakfast to midday in on paragraph, and it's impossible to determine whether the conversation of some of the guards at the table over t-one of the mruders was during breakfast or lunch. So, it's as if he blacked out, between breakfast and lunch, and another persona took over. This certainly is inspired by Smeagol/Gollum, or Jeckyl/Hyde... but Smeagol and Gollum is more accurate, because Jeckyl/Hyde was white-black, while Smeagol/Gollum is dark grey to smoky black.

Reek is a beast too. Ramsay compares him constantly to a dog, and he's to sleep with the dogs.

So I cant spell Gollum without Ring. Theyre too connected imo, and while Jeckyl and Hyde got the potion which is a strong image I dont think it holds weight compared to the Ring. 
Theons father, too cheap to sell his own soul for his transgression, sold his son's. That Theon grew up missing something "vital" is of course debatable but Theon himself sees himself as a victim and his conquest of Winterfell was a way of buying back his soul. Enter stage left Ramsay
The pull of conquest, the fear of imprisonment the lack of a singular identity, I think are Theon's Rings. They drive him and they turn him. Also, Gollum never fully killed Smeagol and vice versa. More of a Harvey Dent situation I believe, where the two "peoples" are in a discussion/conflict and not like a Jeckyl situation where the mind will manifest into a stranger, like Me Myself and Irene. 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, Im not entirely sure what passage your refereeing to. Citation please?
But even without, this is a regular style of GRRM I think, which we see in Tyrion or Arya pov's for example. Tmk the only true "unreliable narrator" is Sansa and her unkiss and also Barri and his memory conflicting with documented events. (There was also that Vic scene where they burned his arm)

Here's the quote

Quote

As the garrison broke its fast that morning on stale bread fried in bacon grease (the lords and knights ate the bacon), the talk along the benches was of little but the corpse.

"Stannis has friends inside the castle," Theon heard one serjeant mutter. He was an old Tallhart man, three trees sewn on his ragged surcoat. The watch had just changed. Men were coming in from the cold, stomping their feet to knock the snow off their boots and breeches as the midday meal was served—blood sausage, leeks, and brown bread still warm from the ovens. (aDwD, A Ghost in Winterfell)

This is an unreliable time jump. It's different from Arya's or Tyrion's, and pretty unique. There's just no way to be certain whether the serjeant was talking during breakfast or midday meal. I sometimes work on timeline references in POVs (including lunar allusions, beyond what the timeline project does... we can infer lunar phases upon the mention of when the moon rises or is setting, for example). He may remain vague if a chapter covers several days or even weeks, by mentioning "one day" and such things. But in the above quote it is impossible to determine when the serjeant muttered that remark.

Tyrion and the crew on the Shy Maid do travel through timespace at some point, beneath the Bridge of Dreams, but that is also very much a marked event by the whole crew... though often forgotten by readers, because George used a style there of references or expressions repeated several times during different moments of the sequence, so that in our memory it all becomes a jumble.

Edited October 30, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Theon III Thoughts : 

Hmm, very little Theon stuff honestly. It was mostly an interaction between Ramsay and Roose, and then Roose monologuing to Theon. All interesting, but not really my purpose here, lol. I honestly don't understand why Roose puts up with Ramsay. He said "child lords" are banes of any house...but Ramsay is a much worse bane then any child lord. You cannot tell me that Ramsay is not 10x worse than basically any child. He seems primed to completely destroy House Bolton. 

Also, Roose's plan is ...falling apart essentially immediately. Like, he did not look to the future at all when he decided to take part in the Red Wedding. All of the Northern houses CLEARLY hate him (and Ramsay even more so). The Manderlys and Umbers are painfully obviously biding their time. The Cerwyns and Hornwoods are only there as their lords are dead (and most likely they hate Roose). The Glovers and Mormonts aren't even there (right?). The Lockes and Flints are probably going to follow Manderly's lead. The Northern Tribes have already joined Stannis. Roose's only allies, the Dustins and Ryswells....are at best lukewarm to him (and I would guess not even that warm. I think Barbrey Dustin will betray Roose or Ramsay, or both). Basically, his plan is a disasterous mess. It has no plan for the future. It relies on Ramsay, a Lord Paramount primed for assassination, or at least open rebellion of his vassals. It relies on none of the Starks showing up (Roose knows Bran and Rickon aren't dead, and has no clue wehether Sansa or Arya are) because literally maybe every single lord will rally around them if they do. Oh, and it relies on the Freys....who are currently perhaps the most slimy, hated lords in all of Westeros (and I believe are about to be massacred in TWoW in the Riverlands). It was a bad plan. You can't break every rule of hospitality, be personally responsible for causing mass death of your supposed allies (Roose was by sending the Tallhearts/Glovers to Duskendale), and basically piss off literally every single one of your vassals...and expect to rule them when you cannot even field that large of an army (as far as I'm aware Roose's troop numbers are pretty low). Bad plan. Much like Tywin, he was short-sighted. 

The only thing I can think on Theon is how I did wonder if Theon actually WANTS to have died at Winterfell. He begs Roose and Barbrey Dustin to understand that he is not Theon, and Theon died at Winterfell, and I wonder if in a way....Theon almost wants that. He wants a certain freedom to not be Theon Turncloak anymore. Reek is pathetic, sad, and dying...but I believe Theon hates himself. He hates what he did. He hates the decisions he made. Perhaps in some ways it is better to be Reek than to be Theon. A sort of strange escape. Now, granted, the torture is also at play here...so it is not a simple take. Still, I think it's worth a thought. 

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:18 PM, sweetsunray said:

Here's the quote

This is an unreliable time jump. It's different from Arya's or Tyrion's, and pretty unique. There's just no way to be certain whether the serjeant was talking during breakfast or midday meal. I sometimes work on timeline references in POVs (including lunar allusions, beyond what the timeline project does... we can infer lunar phases upon the mention of when the moon rises or is setting, for example). He may remain vague if a chapter covers several days or even weeks, by mentioning "one day" and such things. But in the above quote it is impossible to determine when the serjeant muttered that remark.

Tyrion and the crew on the Shy Maid do travel through timespace at some point, beneath the Bridge of Dreams, but that is also very much a marked event by the whole crew... though often forgotten by readers, because George used a style there of references or expressions repeated several times during different moments of the sequence, so that in our memory it all becomes a jumble.

Yea real weird. Very cool. A little before and after is offputting too.

Quote

The dead man was found at the base of the inner wall, with his neck broken and only his left leg showing above the snow that had buried him during the night.

If Ramsay's bitches had not dug him up, he might have stayed buried till spring. By the time Ben Bones pulled them off, Grey Jeyne had eaten so much of the dead man's face that half the day was gone before they knew for certain who he'd been: a man-at-arms of four-and-forty years who had marched north with Roger Ryswell. "A drunk," Ryswell declared.

"Pissing off the wall, I'll wager. He slipped and fell." No one disagreed. But Theon Greyjoy found himself wondering why any man would climb the snow-slick steps to the battlements in the black of night just to take a piss. As the garrison broke its fast that morning on stale bread fried in bacon grease (the lords and knights ate the bacon), the talk along the benches was of little but the corpse.

"Stannis has friends inside the castle," Theon heard one serjeant mutter. He was an old Tallhart man, three trees sewn on his ragged surcoat. The watch had just changed. Men were coming in from the cold, stomping their feet to knock the snow off their boots and breeches as the midday meal was served-blood sausage, leeks, and brown bread still warm from the ovens.

"Stannis?" laughed one of Roose Ryswell's riders. "Stannis is snowed to death by now. Else he's run back to the Wall with his tail froze between his legs." "He could be camped five feet from our walls with a hundred thousand men," said an archer wearing Cerwyn colors. "We'd never see a one o' them through this storm."

Endless, ceaseless, merciless, the snow had fallen day and night. Drifts climbed the walls and filled the crenels along the battlements, white blankets covered every roof, tents sagged beneath the weight. Ropes were strung from hall to hall to help men keep from getting lost as they crossed the yards. Sentries crowded into the guard turrets to warm half-frozen hands over glowing braziers, leaving the wallwalks to the snowy sentinels the squires had thrown up, who grew larger and stranger every night as wind and weather worked their will upon them. Ragged beards of ice grew down the spears clasped in their snowy fists. No less a man than Hosteen Frey, who had been heard growling that he did not fear a little snow, lost an ear to frostbite.

It is well established that it's morning, and then all of a sudden lots of time jumps.
Is Theon the Ghost? Well another one, a Smegol to his Gollum... or is it a Gollum to his Smegol?

Im really on the fence that hes out here Jaqen Hgharing the fantasies of a mentally unhinged child, although thats exactly what the ghost of harrenhal was...

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

"Reek, it rhymes with weak." Theon IV Thoughts

"This is their home. Theon wondered what that would be like, to have a home." - I cannot promise this is the quote where I decided to like Theon, but I am fairly certain it was this chapter, back in 2011, during my first read through of ADwD, that I made the decision. Theon struggles throughout the chapter with identity fairly openly. Calling himself a "Stark at last", contradicting while he both defends and despises his past actions, and ultimately sharing how sad, lonely, and alone Theon was BEFORE all the events of these books. It puts a lie to all of Theon's bravado, confidence, and mirth from the first few books. Theon was struggling with identity for far longer than since he has been rebranded as Reek by Ramsay. 

This is also the chapter where we get the first close look at Barbrey Dustin. Random note, but Theon actually does a pretty good job of stroking her ego and getting her to talk more to him. To be honest, Barbrey Dustin seems loyal to absolutely no one. Neither the Boltons, or the Starks. I also think she does not tell Theon the whole truth, with knowledge that he could go tell Ramsay anything she tells him. This doesn't mean she doesn't speak truths, merely she hides information she wouldn't wanted the Boltons to know. 

Also, we had discussed before in another chat, in far too much detail, about what it means to be a psychopath. Barbrey Dustin certainly seems to think Roose Bolton is a psychopath. She might as well have given a definition while describing him. Admittedly, I have no compelling evidence AGAINST that take (he doesn't seem to care about literally anyone at all). 

This chapter has a lot going on, Wyman Manderly probably feeds the Freys their relatives, we see what has become of winterfell, wedding happens, theon's character developes, we get a look at Barbrey Dustin and more information about Roose, and finally a horrific rape scene at the end. A note : Jeyne Pool's fate is particurely cruel for a random side character. Sold into slavery essentially, where Petyr Baelish did...something horrible to her, and then given to Ramsay Bolton. Jesus GRRM. Give the gal a break! I can only hope that her fate gets less horrible with time. 

P.s. You know, I never explained WHY I liked the initial quote. I've lived in South Korea for 14 years, and yet ...I will never be Korean. Getting Korean citizenship would be difficult at best, but even if I could, no one would ever consider me Korean other than my close family members and friends. I can really understand the sentiment Theon feels there. I guess, like Theon, I want to be something I can never be. In multiple ways. I don't know, though, even without relating to the quote, it's just such a sad thing. To not belong anywhere. Anyways, that's all for this chapter. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Theon V Thoughts 

Theon feels sad. Regret and sadness - that sums up the chapter for Theon. His acceptance of his love if the Starks leads to, well, depression. As it would. He, after all, betrayed them. 

Barbey’s famous Eddard-hate speech is honestly not that convincing as people act like it is. Seems more like she hated Lord Rickard’s Maester more than Eddard lol. Yeah, she gonna betray the Boltons. 

Also, did Theon walk around in the freezing cold for like 6 hours (he appears to leave at lunch and return at dinner). Theon’s prayer at the Heart Tree is heartbreaking. He begs the tree, and cannot even decide what to ask from it. I’ve been there Theon. I’ve been there.