How much does Shadrich know?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 10/27/2023 at 6:38 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think Shadrich just got lucky.

With that kind of luck, he should pursue gambling for a living.

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Personally, I have a hard time believing that HR is playing host to Maege and Glover and not being more proactive than having his men shoot poisoned arrows at Ironborn at Moat Cailin, while sending both of his children in such danger with Bran

This is a very salient point. I think viral headcanon is also to blame for people not liking this idea. Somehow the view has spread that HR will appear from the wings at the end of ADOS to reveal what went down at the TOJ. That to me smacks of poorer writing than secret identities.

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:37 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's quite frustrating that Brienne spends the entirety of AFFC looking for Sansa to no avail, while Shadrich finds her pretty much right away. Maybe that's intentional too.

Not right away, it's like the last five pages of the book he finally finds her. 

Sansa got that bounty, half of Westeros is looking for and I think it'd have been kinda silly for Brienne to find the girls before actual professional bounty hunters would.

I'd also find it silly if that professional turned out to be her godfather who she never met and who should really be. Up north looking out for his dying children and not like, hanging out with Petyr

 

Shad is a fish? Like herring? And rich is like a money thing, so maybe something like this dudes a red herring and not gonna get paid?

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/27/2023 at 6:55 PM, Nevets said:

Brienne's not that careless.  Remember, she was careful enough not to use Sansa's name while searching for her.  So I doubt she would make it obvious she knows who she is.

And if she does figure out Sansa is with Baelish at the Eyrie, she could decide Sansa is safe where she is.  She's well hidden there, and Baelish is her uncle by marriage and guardian to her cousin.  

I still think she still might end up with Sansa in the Vale.  Martin did, after all, give her a companion who knows Sansa.  Of course, Baelish also knows Podrick, so it could get tricky.

I mean, she didn't use her name, but basically everyone knew who she was talking about. Brienne also has a tendency to be somewhat straight forward and direct (something I like about her but doesn't lend to her being good at keeping her knowledge secret). I would argue that Brienne would see Baelish for who he is...a creepy perv. I like the idea of Brienne ending up fighting for Sansa. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think it'd have been kinda silly for Brienne to find the girls before actual professional bounty hunters would.

Why did Jaime give Brianne the assignment, then? Was she the only one he could trust?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Why did Jaime give Brianne the assignment, then? Was she the only one he could trust?

Well, to be fair, he is essentially acting against his sister's orders (she is technically his queen)..and he probably assumed Brienne was less likely to (at least easily) be traced back to him. Although I'm sure Jaime would act nonchalant if it was traced back to him, lol. 

But also, I kind of agree with you, I don't think Brienne was a terrible choice. He could trust her honor to actually protect Sansa unlike probably any other...hedge knights (who else would you hire?). As well, Brienne is not the kind of person to give up on something. She will just keep trying, and I think that is a good choice in someone to find someone as well. I would assume most hedge knights would give up after a certain point. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Why did Jaime give Brianne the assignment, then? Was she the only one he could trust?

She knew of his vows to Cat, and she's stubborn. He feels he cannot go in search for Sansa himself, let alone hand her over to Catelyn if he did find her personally. Brienne is his way to remain true to his promises to Cat. It also conveniently gets Brienne out of the way and away from the Red Keep. I think Jaime recognizes at some level that it wouldn't be safe for Brienne to remain near Cersei.

I'm not certain whether Jaime ever truly believed Brienne would find Sansa, or really thought it through, beyond making an effort to satisfy his consciense and get Brienne out of the way.

Edited October 29, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well, to be fair, he is essentially acting against his sister's orders (she is technically his queen)..and he probably assumed Brienne was less likely to (at least easily) be traced back to him. Although I'm sure Jaime would act nonchalant if it was traced back to him, lol.

Its pretty easy to trace back to him, she is carrying his sword after all. But totally a betrayal to his sister, and possible treason or whatever, agreed.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

s well, Brienne is not the kind of person to give up on something

Also, this.

 

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Why did Jaime give Brianne the assignment, then? Was she the only one he could trust?

Cat gave Brienne the assignment, excuse me, assignments. Brienne is going to look for the girls, only thing stopping her would be like Loras' blade, or Lannister handcuffs. The real question I think is Why did Jaime go back/ jump in the bear pit.
Brienne got Jaime back home, that it wasn't in one piece we and Jaime know, is because of him. To hinder her now and side with Cersei is a stain on his honor. Not the metaphorical kind to show off to your dinner guests and hostages but the self-conscious kind that Jaime regularly struggles and debates with. More to the point, Briennes honor was stained when Jaime lost his hand and as that was Jaime's fault he perhaps wants to help her which is why he gifts her with Tommens decree and a cool million in unmarked dragons and stags. And lastly because of Jaime's lack of a hand this magic sword is a joke, and a bad one. Funny but bad. Jaime is not worthy of "Oathbreaker" but she is. And like he said, the poetry of Stark's protector wielding Ice, at least half an Ice, isn't missed either and perhaps was the first indication she could use his help.
Also, lastly lastly, he wanted to. Because Jaime, at least nowadays Jaime, does what he wants.

Quote

"I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me

 

[Alester Florent]

On 10/28/2023 at 2:48 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Not right away, it's like the last five pages of the book he finally finds her. 

Sansa got that bounty, half of Westeros is looking for and I think it'd have been kinda silly for Brienne to find the girls before actual professional bounty hunters would.

I'd also find it silly if that professional turned out to be her godfather who she never met and who should really be. Up north looking out for his dying children and not like, hanging out with Petyr

I mean, this assumes that "professional bounty hunters" are a thing in Westeros, which I'm not at all convinced they are. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I mean, this assumes that "professional bounty hunters" are a thing in Westeros, which I'm not at all convinced they are. 

That would raise a lot of questions; Are there any specific criteria for becoming a professional bounty hunter? What institution hands out licenses? Do you need to take a test beforehand? Et cetera, et cetera.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Sandy Clegg]

On 10/28/2023 at 2:48 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I'd also find it silly if that professional turned out to be her godfather who she never met and who should really be. Up north looking out for his dying children and not like, hanging out with Petyr

Doesn't being a godfather entail some kind of duty towards the godchild? 

Jojen and Meera are not at the Neck. They have chosen a fate that is tied up with looking after one of the younger children of Ned Stark. What looks to be a dangerous mission, perhaps. But Jojen having greensight may be an important part of this.

If Howland respects the greensight, as he probably does, then he may have had to reluctantly let his children go off to serve Bran. How could he do no less with regards to Ned's girls? The Reeds' motives are extremely difficult to ascertain. We know HR was loyal to Ned, and would therefore be as loyal to his children. His own kids are older and seem far more capable, in their own way, so leaving them to go off North of the Wall is a different proposition. The Reeds - both generations - ought to get a little more credit for wanting to play an active role in supporting the Starks and the North. If Shadrich is HR then he is doing his part - through stealth tactics, subterfuge and possibly a touch of magic. Not out of character at all.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

What looks to be a dangerous mission, perhaps. But Jojen having greensight may be an important part of this.

And Jojen foresaw that he would die on this mission. Even upon arrival at WF, Jojen mentions to Meera that this is not the moment he will die as they both enter the godswood at night unauthorized during the harving feast. We witness it via Bran in Summer, and Jojen touching Bran by stroking Summer. It implies he has seen the circumstances of his own death, and that it is the price he pays to help Bran. Either Jojen informed his father about all he saw, or he kept some to himself.

But after the news of Bran and Rickon being killed by Theon and the sack of WF, and no further news from Jojen or Meera, HR would most likely believe both his children died along with Bran and Rickon. There is no incentive for HR to go north after Theon killing the miller's boys, other than revenge. The Stark heir coming after Rickon, normally would be Sansa, who at that point in time was an unwed hostage betrothed to Joffrey in the Red Keep, with Stannis sailing and marching for King's Landing.

Jojen believed that the chained winged wolf was Bran (potentially Rickon), and he was correct. I think Jojen told his father at the very least the dream of the chained winged wolf, the calamity coming to WF and the death of "Bran and Rickon". They would have been told to persuade HR to let Jojen and Meera go on this mission. But could they be certain that Bran was that chained winged wolf? No. The sole confirmed and known captive wolf at the time was Sansa. So, it's entirely possible that as Jojen and Meera struck out for Winterfell, Howland Reed himself journeyed south aiming to find a way to free Sansa. Joining Stannis' army seems to have been the best bet then.

That HR is not actually in the Neck is further supported by no further known action from Maege and Glover once they went into the Neck. Sure, most of the northern lords are biding their time. But at the very least we've seen most of them pretending to be either on the Bolton side or Stannis' side, trying to do something about it. But no "bog devils"? The moment Theon lured the Ironborn away from Moat Cailin, HR could have blocked Roose Bolton's host from crossing. If however, HR isn't home (since aCoK), but his wife must lead, the lack of initiative from the marsh men for so long makes way more sense.

Edited October 30, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

If however, HR isn't home (since aCoK), but his wife must lead, the lack of initiative from the marsh men for so long makes way more sense.

Why would his wife leading mean "lack of initiative"? That's a pretty blatantly sexist assumption on your part.

 

Anyway, as far as I can see, the only reason people have for believing Shadrich is anyone other than Shadrich is that he is looking for Sansa. Yet GRRM has give clear motive for pretty much anyone to be looking for Sansa. Even if he is a spy, that does not mean he needs to be anyone other than Shadrich the spy. Flimsy stuff. The question is not who he is, but who he is spying for IMO.

HR has no doubt been up to something, I will give you that. I just don't agree he needs to be wandering Westeros with a secret identity to have been doing something. 

I see hints in several chapters that both Maege and Galbart have returned to the North, where they stay hidden so they can direct the opposition to the Boltons. That has become a guerilla sort of fight since the armies of those still loyal to the Starks were decimated. The Reeds strike me as wellsuited to guerilla warfare.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Hippocras

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:32 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean, she didn't use her name, but basically everyone knew who she was talking about. Brienne also has a tendency to be somewhat straight forward and direct (something I like about her but doesn't lend to her being good at keeping her knowledge secret).

Yeah tbh, she may as well have been waving a banner with her face painted on it with a caption that read, "HAVE YOU SEEN THIS GIRL? SHE IS NOT SANSA STARK."  

On 10/29/2023 at 1:32 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I like the idea of Brienne ending up fighting for Sansa. 

This would be sweet and poetic. Especially given Sansa's prayer, asking the old gods to send her a knight.

Quote

"Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me..." -ACoK Sansa II

Maybe her prayer hasn't technically been answered yet. But I just had a thought, if Brienne meets up with Arya in the Riverlands, Arya would be protected by her mother's sworn knight. If Howland is Shadrich, then Sansa would be protected by her father's truest friend. Call me delulu but this is my new headcanon. No, I will not be accepting criticism. Auf Wiedersehen. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Hugorfonics]

16 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

If Howland is Shadrich, then Sansa would be protected by her father's truest friend. Call me delulu but this is my new headcanon. No, I will not be accepting criticism. Auf Wiedersehen. 

Guten Morgen.
I think the easiest criticism is that her father only had one friend and he turned out to be something of a mad tyrant. 
But other ones are that Sansa is not looking for a knight

Quote

Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound . . . the Hound hated knights . . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

and then more to the point, 

Quote

"I would do the same if she were my daughter," said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair. "Particularly around louts like us."

Alayne laughed. "Are you louts?" she said, teasing. "Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights."

Gallant knights? This according to Sansa is an oxymoron, and from a literary perspective, its step backwards for Sansa to be rescued by one of these "gallant knights" who would take her to like the isle of faces where she learns how to do a super-kamehameha or whatever. 
This would feel like a large pivot from her plot as a plotter which has her next to Petyr learning his trade, not the magical one that Eddard long ago slit its throat (Lady) 

Ok, more things that dont make sense. Winged Wolf, cool story. Are the kids "dead" like that? Ramsay hung the bodies of "Bran and Rickon" above that gate so in all likelhood the greiving father would want to war on Bolton and not kick it with Sansa. Or is she like the second option now that Bran and Rickon have died for Reed to witness a Super Stark Sayin or whatever the plan is?
Speaking of Sansa not being the second plan. Shes not. Robb cut her out the will like a cancer, sending Riverlords and Northern lords to Reed to both prepare for Prince Jon and also get ready for Robb's northern campaign, obviously the RW changed that but not the will. For Robb's knights to approach Reed only for him to immediately leave and shoot the breeze with the exact persons disqualified from the will is a dick move.
We dont know if HR is a dick, we know the Mouse is though. We also though know that HR's kids are like the most polite and sweetest kids you'll ever meet which makes me think the HR has manners which surely the Mouse does not.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

53 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Guten Morgen.
I think the easiest criticism is that her father only had one friend and he turned out to be something of a mad tyrant. 

I did forget about ole Bobby B, and in my defense I'm suffering from memory loss because of Lyme disease. However, I find it very hard to believe that Howland and Ned don't consider themselves good friends. They've been through shit together, they fought together, and now Howland is willing to send his own children to guide Ned's. I think it's possible Ned had more than just one friend. Not all friendships are the same, and some friendships are long-distance that don't require a lot of conversations for validation. I find it hard to believe that Ned and Howland went through everything that they went through together and never formed a very significant and special bond. I think Howland is more than just a vassal showing undying loyalty to his liege/former liege lord.

53 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But other ones are that Sansa is not looking for a knight

Nobody said she was. What I said was that it would be poetic and fitting given her prayer. She's not looking for a knight at the moment, but it would be cute if the gods sent her one anyway. Sansa can have agency and grow whilst also being guarded/rescued by a knight. I wouldn't consider it a step backwards since everyone needs help. Sansa will probably have help if and when she brings down LF. And if she fled the Vale, she would most definitely need help to survive out in the wild.

 

Edit: apparently I am taking criticism.. I'm such a liar 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I did forget about ole Bobby B, and in my defense I'm suffering from memory loss because of Lyme disease.

. Ah damn, my brother had that a few years back. Get rest and I hope you feel better soon.

3 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

However, I find it very hard to believe that Howland and Ned don't consider themselves good friends. They've been through shit together, they fought together, and now Howland is willing to send his own children to guide Ned's. I think it's possible Ned had more than just one friend. Not all friendships are the same, and many friendships are long-distance that don't require a lot of conversations for validation. I find it hard to believe that Ned and Howland went through everything that they went through together and never formed a very significant and special bond. I think Howland is more than just a vassal showing undying loyalty to his liege/former liege lord.

They were at a party together once, for sure. And then of course Ned woulda died if it werent for Reed, whatever that means (I dont think it means super-kamehameha) But there's zero interaction or any conversation about them too.
It's possible that theyre friends but it's also possible that theyre not. 
Reed is really interesting with their loyalty. Why didn't they come to Robb? Robb never seemed upset and on his campaign to retake the north hes grateful they're there but still strange imo. Also the Reeds struck up almost a Walder like deal, they required guarantees for loyalty, explicitly not undying.

Quote

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

Obviously this is all extremely workable, but still noteworthy.

12 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Nobody said she was.

No, but let me reiterate. Sansa is mistrustful of knights, has a horrible relationship with the profession and would if not flat out refuse to join them then would be extremely hesitant to go on any escapade where her safety and wellbeing depend on their mood and orders.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

49 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They were at a party together once, for sure. And then of course Ned woulda died if it werent for Reed, whatever that means (I dont think it means super-kamehameha) But there's zero interaction or any conversation about them too.
It's possible that theyre friends but it's also possible that theyre not. 
Reed is really interesting with their loyalty. Why didn't they come to Robb? Robb never seemed upset and on his campaign to retake the north hes grateful they're there but still strange imo. Also the Reeds struck up almost a Walder like deal, they required guarantees for loyalty, explicitly not undying.

Obviously this is all extremely workable, but still noteworthy.

No, but let me reiterate. Sansa is mistrustful of knights, has a horrible relationship with the profession and would if not flat out refuse to join them then would be extremely hesitant to go on any escapade where her safety and wellbeing depend on their mood and orders.

I think you're minimizing the impact Ned and Howland had on each other's lives. If you don't think they're friends, that's of course totally fair. But I like to think that something gave even Robb reason to consider Ned's and Howland's relationship as a friendship. Howland and Ned fought together, Howland saved Ned's life, Howland sent his own children to Winterfell, and, if R+L=J is true, Howland kept Jon's parentage a secret. Perhaps that's why Ned kept contact with him to a minimal.

She's mistrustful of everybody right now. And again, I haven't said anything beyond "it would be poetic if a knight came to her rescue." Obviously anyone who wanted to help her would need to earn her trust. Like I said before, you can call me delulu because the "Brienne/Howland protects Arya/Sansa" is a headcanon for me personally. It's not serious enough for me to have a debate over. Although I do personally go for the SS=HR theory, but I'm not treating it as fact.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Northern Sword]

On 10/28/2023 at 4:30 AM, sweetsunray said:

It's my blog, but the essay on Shadrich's identity (and Byron's, etc) was written by BlueEyedWolf, a guest author, because I challenged her here on the forum to write her ideas into an essay when she was developing them in a thread about Shadrich by @bemused. BlueEyedWolf now goes by the name of Blue Lemons (@LemonyBlues) and co-hosts the Silent Sisters podcast (@sisterssilent). And she has a tumblr page: thebluelemontree.tumblr.com 

Well @sweetsunray my apologies for not crediting you directly as it was your blog. @LemonyBlues wrote a great piece, it convinced me (  I wanted to be convinced ) haha. 

I can tell you, I thoroughly enjoyed your whole blog. Loved the comparisons to George's earlier works concerning the Sandkings. With the length of time between books, finding new takes and predictions on a blog like yours was such a great find. 

Hopefully you have more coming. lol

 

Cheers

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

40 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

. Ah damn, my brother had that a few years back. Get rest and I hope you feel better soon.

And thank you, really.  It's been in my system for so long that it's triggered some autoimmune responses, but I'll be seeing a specialist next month. Just pray that I don't go broke trying to pay for supplements lol.