The significance of Ethan Glover

[James Steller]

Obviously it’s still a mystery why he was spared, but I’m open to hearing any viable theories.

At first glance, I would have assumed that he was needed to help guide Eddard to Lyanna. But if he knew all along where Lyanna was, then why wouldn’t he and Brandon Stark have gone after her in the first place? Or is it all just a red herring?

[Kal-L]

Brandon's actions indicate that he thought Rhaegar and his accomplices had brought Lyanna at King's Landing (Why there instead of Dragonstone ? They were probably led on towards that destination, coming to the conclusion that Rhaegar probably wouldn't want to offend his wife by bringing his mistresse at home.)

Anyway it's verly likely that Ethan was spared because of his age and as Brandon's squire and "vassal" from the North, unlike the others young men, he was bound to follow his master.

Note that we don't what happened after (and even before) Brandon was heard shouting Rhaegar to "come out and die"; somehow I can't see the "wild wolf" submitting without a fight... Perhaps the gravity of what took place that day is more important that we might have suspected.

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

 

Anyway it's verly likely that Ethan was spared because of his age and as Brandon's squire and "vassal" from the North, unlike the others young men, he was bound to follow his master.

 

I find it hard to believe that the Mad King would burn Rickard Stark alive and sentence Robert Baratheon to death for no reason other than his being Lyanna’s betrothed, but finds it in his heart to spare Brandon’s squire. It was clear by then that Aerys’ paranoia made him suspect almost everyone. I think he was beyond the kind of pragmatic thinking you imply with that explanation. Plus, what does keeping Ethan hostage get him? Why wouldnt he have executed Ethan during the rebellion as punishment for his family’s participation in the war against him?

Edited November 3, 2023 by James Steller

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I think just because he was a child. I also notice the other were all non-northerners. Man, the theory that the other houses were plotting against Aerys well before the rebellion...is probably true right? A Mallister, a Royce, an Arryn....that is highly unusual as a set of friends for a Northern heir. Meanwhile Eddard and Robert were busy being friends in the Eyrie. And with Tywin wanting to marry Jaime and Lysa...maybe the alliance was originally meant to include the Westerlands, too. Now the question is...was Rhaegar involved. Were they planning to replace Aerys with Rhaegar, and then Rhaegar screwed it up by running off with Lyanna. 

[Kal-L]

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think just because he was a child. I also notice the other were all non-northerners. Man, the theory that the other houses were plotting against Aerys well before the rebellion...is probably true right? A Mallister, a Royce, an Arryn....that is highly unusual as a set of friends for a Northern heir. Meanwhile Eddard and Robert were busy being friends in the Eyrie. And with Tywin wanting to marry Jaime and Lysa...maybe the alliance was originally meant to include the Westerlands, too. Now the question is...was Rhaegar involved. Were they planning to replace Aerys with Rhaegar, and then Rhaegar screwed it up by running off with Lyanna. 

How so ? Ned was fostered in the Vale of Arryn, why couldn't the contrary be true as well ? Besides the Starks had been linked to the Vale and House Royce since the beginning of that century with Lord Beron's Stark's marriage with Lorra Royce, followed by Jocelyn Stark's (Lord Rickard's aunt) marriage with Benedict Royce. It's very likely that Elbert Arryn and Kyle Royce would have been fostered at Barrowtown along with Brandon. We know from Barbrey Ryswell that her husband Lord Willam Dustin had a great-uncle who was a veteran of the War of the ninepenny kings and an uncle known for his great prowess at arms. That's quite a good setting to raise young noble men.

I would also add that Brandon wasn't attached to Winterfell, for all we know, he could have befriended Jeffrey Mallister at the Tourney of Harrenhal or during one of his visits to the Tullys at the Riverrun.

20 hours ago, James Steller said:

I find it hard to believe that the Mad King would burn Rickard Stark alive and sentence Robert Baratheon to death for no reason other than his being Lyanna’s betrothed, but finds it in his heart to spare Brandon’s squire. It was clear by then that Aerys’ paranoia made him suspect almost everyone. I think he was beyond the kind of pragmatic thinking you imply with that explanation. Plus, what does keeping Ethan hostage get him? Why wouldnt he have executed Ethan during the rebellion as punishment for his family’s participation in the war against him?

Robert and Ned represented a real danger to him and his son as they were powerful enough to attempt to avenge the murder of Rickard and Brandon - which they did in the end. Ethan Glover on the other hand was a mere kid who might have been spared at the request of someone in Aerys' good grace who knew it was a life that could be spared.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Kal-L

[Lord Varys]

I imagine that Ethan gave in and confirmed whatever suspicions Aerys II had about both Rickard and Brandon, giving the Mad King an incriminating testimony. Say, confirming that Rhaegar and the Starks were actually plotting against Aerys.

And he could actually have overheard something of the kind if Rhaegar reached out to Brandon or Rickard at Harrenhal before the coronation of Lyanna. As Brandon's squire he could have been privy to things he was not supposed to hear.

[Lady Ella]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I imagine that Ethan gave in and confirmed whatever suspicions Aerys II had about both Rickard and Brandon, giving the Mad King an incriminating testimony. Say, confirming that Rhaegar and the Starks were actually plotting against Aerys.

And he could actually have overheard something of the kind if Rhaegar reached out to Brandon or Rickard at Harrenhal before the coronation of Lyanna. As Brandon's squire he could have been privy to things he was not supposed to hear.

Not likely. Ethan died outside the Tower of Joy trying to rescue Lyanna. He was clearly loyal to the Starks, probably to Brandon especially. I imagine the actions of Brandon and his companions were enough confirmation for the Mad King of their plotting.

As others have said, Ethan was most likely spared because, as a squire, he was not considered to be involved in the plot and was therefore not deemed a threat.

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Lady Ella said:

Not likely. Ethan died outside the Tower of Joy trying to rescue Lyanna. He was clearly loyal to the Starks, probably to Brandon especially. I imagine the actions of Brandon and his companions were enough confirmation for the Mad King of their plotting.

As others have said, Ethan was most likely spared because, as a squire, he was not considered to be involved in the plot and was therefore not deemed a threat.

Aerys wouldn't have cared about any of that. If Brandon's companions are as guilty of his crime(s), then the same should also be true for his squire. Ethan seems to have been pretty old, too, as he was old enough to count as a proper fighter at the tower of joy. That means he may been pretty close in age to Ned, perhaps only 1-2 years younger. Not all squires are children.

That means Ethan must have done something that spared him from Aerys' wrath. And the only thing that makes sense is him giving a testimony or confession the king wanted to hear. Perhaps only after threats or torture.

Ned may have also not dragged Ethan with him to the tower of joy because he was his late brother's former squire or some die-hard Stark loyalist ... but simply somebody who knew where Lyanna (likely) was from his time at the Targaryen court. Ethan could have remained a prisoner at the Red Keep until the Sack, learning about Lyanna's whereabouts from Rhaegar himself.

Hell, if Brandon and Rhaegar had conspiracy talks with each other at Harrenhal Ethan attended then Rhaegar may have definitely wanted to search out Ethan to explain what went wrong with the whole Lyanna situation.

If Harrenhal was intended as a front for a covert Great Council to depose or restrict the power of Aerys II then it also makes a lot of sense that Rhaegar may have reached out to Rickard Stark as a potential ally as he had ways to approach Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Robert Baratheon clandestinely about their takes on this sensitive issue. The betrothals and Ned being Jon's former ward put him a in unique position to address such dangerous topics.

It would not surprise me if Brandon came to Harrenhal expecting to back Rhaegar against Aerys only to meet prince who was too afraid to actually move against his father now that he had shown up personally. That could even feature into his anger over Rhaegar in wake of the coronation as Brandon wouldn't be the type of guy who likes a craven to court his sister.

We know a loot happened at Harrenhal, and the question whether the obviously mad Mad King was yet fit to rule would have been a question that would have been definitely discussed by a number of people.

[Arthur Peres]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:45 AM, James Steller said:

I find it hard to believe that the Mad King would burn Rickard Stark alive and sentence Robert Baratheon to death for no reason other than his being Lyanna’s betrothed, but finds it in his heart to spare Brandon’s squire. It was clear by then that Aerys’ paranoia made him suspect almost everyone. I think he was beyond the kind of pragmatic thinking you imply with that explanation. Plus, what does keeping Ethan hostage get him? Why wouldnt he have executed Ethan during the rebellion as punishment for his family’s participation in the war against him?

Well Aerys also spared Dontos for being too young at the request of Barristan. Maybe Ethan was also seen as too young at the time.

Aerys was also called mad, his actions cannot be understood by using logic.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Well Aerys also spared Dontos for being too young at the request of Barristan. Maybe Ethan was also seen as too young at the time.

Barristan saved Aerys' life in a most stunning feat and was thus in a unique position to ask him for favor. There is no indication that anyone at Aerys' court was in a similar position in 282 AC nor does it make sense anyone at his court would have wanted to speak for Ethan Glover of all people.

Ethan wouldn't have been too young as Aerys fine with killing children as shown, for instance, at Duskendale.

The best explanation we have still is that Aerys got from Ethan what he wanted, either a testimony or confession he liked, or his services in some other capacity. He could have acted as an envoy telling Lord Rickard he should present his ass at court, for instance.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Y’all are over thinking this. Why didn’t Aerys kill Ethan Glover? Cause he didn’t feel like it. That’s it. Being a “mad” King does not require you to killl everyone. Aerys perceived threats around every corner..but a child squire might not have regestered, maybe Varys (who seems to have a soft spot for children) saved Ethan? I think it is more likely to be something simple like Aerys just didn’t see him a threat then some more complicated reason. 

[James Steller]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Y’all are over thinking this. Why didn’t Aerys kill Ethan Glover? Cause he didn’t feel like it. That’s it. Being a “mad” King does not require you to killl everyone. Aerys perceived threats around every corner..but a child squire might not have regestered, maybe Varys (who seems to have a soft spot for children) saved Ethan? I think it is more likely to be something simple like Aerys just didn’t see him a threat then some more complicated reason. 

Ethan was not a child. He was of mature age and he was one of the warriors Ned took to Dorne.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Ethan was not a child. He was of mature age and he was one of the warriors Ned took to Dorne.

Offer me proof of that. According to the wiki articile, he could have been as young as 9 at his death, and honestly I see no reason to believe he was an adult or not young. Keep in mind Eddard and Robert were 19ish during Robert's rebellion. If Ethan was younger than them, even by a few years, we are talking about like 15. He could have been like 12-14 when confronting Aerys easily (which is often seen as a "child"). But again, offer me proof that he was an adult. 

Also, Brandon Stark was confirmed to be 20 at his death, so I doubt Ethan was close to his age (since he was his squire). 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[James Steller]

1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Offer me proof of that. According to the wiki articile, he could have been as young as 9 at his death, and honestly I see no reason to believe he was an adult or not young. Keep in mind Eddard and Robert were 19ish during Robert's rebellion. If Ethan was younger than them, even by a few years, we are talking about like 15. He could have been like 12-14 when confronting Aerys easily (which is often seen as a "child"). But again, offer me proof that he was an adult. 

16 is adulthood in this world, so we could both be right.

But far as I know, Ethan is never referred to by Ned as a child, and Ned doesn’t strike me as a man who would bring children to a battle.

Edited November 5, 2023 by James Steller

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 minutes ago, James Steller said:

16 is adulthood in this world, so we could both be right.

But far as I know, Ethan is never referred to by Ned as a child, and Ned doesn’t strike me as a man who would bring children to a battle.

Ethan was say 13 at Brandon's death, had puberty and is now 14 at the Tower of Joy. Or you could say 14 and 15. Robb and Jon are referred to as children at the beginning of the books, and by ACoK are often referred to as men. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ethan was say 13 at Brandon's death, had puberty and is now 14 at the Tower of Joy.

I still can’t get over the fact than he looks like 40-year-old man on his Wiki page.

[Kal-L]

I would also add that Brandon's original purpose was to provoke Rhaegar in duel, meaning that Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce and Jeffory Mallister would have potentially accompanied him as his "seconds" - and logically (in Aerys's mind) paid for the crime of defying House Targaryen alongside Brandon - while Ethan aside of his young could have been seen (and portrayed by some benefactor) as a simple obedient vassal.

[Seams]

House Glover seems to be part of the glove symbolism. Ethan being spared may be part of the rules of The Game of Thrones that are not explained to readers. 

Other glove or Glover moments come at turning points:

• Ser Waymar wearing moleskin gloves when he duels the Other in the Prologue;
• Jon Snow wearing moleskin gloves over his burned hand when he tries to desert from the Night's Watch; 
• Ser Jorah giving gloves to the Widow of the Waterfront before she assigns him and Tyrion and Penny to a doomed voyage;
• Roose Bolton plans to have gloves made out of wolf cubs he killed in a hunt. 
• Arya sees Robett Glover among the captives entering Harrenhal (ACoK, Arya IX):

• Quote

  By his bearing and the proud way he held his head, he must have been a lord. She could see mail glinting beneath his torn red surcoat. At first Arya took him for a Lannister, but when he passed near a torch she saw his device was a silver fist, not a lion. His wrists were bound tightly, and a rope around one ankle tied him to the man behind him, and him to the man behind him, so the whole column had to shuffle along in a lurching lockstep. 

   

• Arya receives fingerless gloves from the sailors on the Titan's Daughter.
• Littlefinger tells Sansa to take off her gloves after he kisses her but she refuses; Lysa is unhappy to see that Sweetrobin is not wearing gloves in the same scene.
• Theon puts on and takes off gloves numerous times. After he is maimed, he wears gloves until Lady Dustin asks him to take them off, iirc. 

Gloves seem like an important link between the major motif around hands (Hand of the King, Jaime's gold hand, Cold Hands, the maimed hands ranging from Davos to Qhorin, etc.) and skinchanging - slipping into an animal skin. 

But why would wearing or sparing or giving gloves occur so regularly in the series? Am I right in linking it to major turning points? Or does it just signal that something is disguised?

Glovers have a gauntlet sigil, however, so that may have special meaning aside from skinchanging. "Throwing down a gauntlet" means challenging someone to a fight, often a duel. So Ethan's survival may have been a message from Aerys to signal that he is challenging the North to a fight. In ASOIAF, gauntlets are often referred to as lobstered gauntlets. This ties them into the shellfish motif. 

So what is the deeper meaning of gloves? And is Ethan's survival part of a larger theme?

Quote

The hardest part had been getting down on his hands and knees to pull the strongbox from underneath Archmaester Walgrave's bed. Though the box was stoutly made and bound with iron, its lock was broken. Maester Gormon had suspected Pate of breaking it, but that wasn't true. Walgrave had broken the lock himself, after losing the key that opened it. . . . 

Inside, Pate had found a bag of silver stags, a lock of yellow hair tied up in a ribbon, a painted miniature of a woman who resembled Walgrave (even to her mustache), and a knight's gauntlet made of lobstered steel. The gauntlet had belonged to a prince, Walgrave claimed, though he could no longer seem to recall which one. When Pate shook it, the key fell out onto the floor.

AFfC, Prologue

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:24 PM, James Steller said:

Obviously it’s still a mystery why he was spared, but I’m open to hearing any viable theories.

At first glance, I would have assumed that he was needed to help guide Eddard to Lyanna. But if he knew all along where Lyanna was, then why wouldn’t he and Brandon Stark have gone after her in the first place? Or is it all just a red herring?

Ethan Glover served as the messenger for Aerys to Rickard .

[The Commentator]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:24 AM, James Steller said:

Obviously it’s still a mystery why he was spared, but I’m open to hearing any viable theories.

At first glance, I would have assumed that he was needed to help guide Eddard to Lyanna. But if he knew all along where Lyanna was, then why wouldn’t he and Brandon Stark have gone after her in the first place? Or is it all just a red herring?

He didn't know at the beginning.  It must have been something he learned while at King's Landing.  Idiot threw away his life after the king gave him mercy and spared him.  He was part of the gang who threatened King Aerys and the Targaryen family in their home.