Lady Dustin and revenge

[Northern Sword]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The "secret entrance" has no real foundation in the books

• Bran knows the castle's secrets, more than maester Aemon, but even he doesn't know about the secret entrance. If he had, he wouldn't have needed Hodor to throw all his strength against the blocked crypt entrance after the sack of Winterfell, with blocks of the First Keep blocking the door from being opened from the inside. He could have used the alternative route. If Bran doesn't know it, then nobody knows.
• The crypts themselves lead to the hot springs of the godswood, which is btw 3 acres big. So while it is a vast cavernous tunnel system, its sole entry point is the crypt's entrance. This makes sense when so many allusions about secret underground cities of the past is about "taking shelter". If you have only one entrance to seal, the enemy cannot get in.
• The latter is supported by the later building and lay-out of Winterfell: several (I repeat "several") hills and valleys within the walls of Winterfell, a 3 acre godswood at the heart/center of Winterfell, the oldest buildings (towers and first keep) near the crypt entrance, and expanions from thereon to an even bigger perimeter with the Walls fully enclosing it. So if there is a "backdoor" entrance it actually would still fall within Winterfell.

While I agree there is no real mention of secret entrances (yet).

Bran is what, 7 years old. Cant really base much on the knowledge of a 7 y/o. While he loved climbing and knew a lot of the secrets Winterfell has, that by no means would mean he knows everything. 

The crypts leads to the godswood, easily can lead somewhere else as well, no? A secondary tunnel could quite easily lead out of the castle entirely. Real world and in-universe castles have these quite regularly. So there is a precedent. 

Winterfell was built over a long period of time, growing larger in different phases with different builders. Any one of these phases or builders could have included a secret entrance. 

I think of the Red Keep, while the spider knew of the secret tunnels. did Robert ? or Joffrey ? Probably not. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Northern Sword

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 11/21/2023 at 12:04 AM, The Commentator said:

The Stark supporters

They are the main protagonists of the book. In AGoT, Starks (including marriage and bastards) are 6 out of the 8 PoVs. You can call people who...read the books as intended and cheer for the main protagonist as intended by the author Stark supporters if you want I guess...but I find it odd to group people reading a novel as intended as somehow "supporters" of a group. The reason why I think Lady Dustin will support the Starks...is I believe the author has painstakingly set up plenty of reason for not just her, but most Northern houses, to support the Starks again and be loyal to the Starks. It's how the books are written. GRRM is an unsual author in that he allows the villains to win sometimes, and that he makes both his protaganists and antagonists layered and morally grey. However,...I've read his other books. The heroes/protagonists win. And the Starks are the heroes/protagonists of these books. 

Also, on a personal note, why wouldn't I support the Starks. They are unquestionably the nobles in these books (and are PoVs are almost all nobles) who actually treat the small folk the best, do the best job raising their children or like any parents we see in these books, have honorable moral values that are missing from other households, and..well they are just plain likable. I've said this before, but I honestly don't know how people made it past AGoT if the dislike the Starks, lol. They are the majority of the PoVs, I would think it would be a miserable experience, lol. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

While I agree there is no real mention of secret entrances (yet).

Bran is what, 7 years old. Cant really base much on the knowledge of a 7 y/o. While he loved climbing and knew a lot of the secrets Winterfell has, that by no means would mean he knows everything. 

The crypts leads to the godswood, easily can lead somewhere else as well, no? A secondary tunnel could quite easily lead out of the castle entirely. Real world and in-universe castles have these quite regularly. So there is a precedent. 

Winterfell was built over a long period of time, growing larger in different phases with different builders. Any one of these phases or builders could have included a secret entrance. 

I think of the Red Keep, while the spider knew of the secret tunnels. did Robert ? or Joffrey ? Probably not. 

If Bran doesn't know it, nobody else does.

Everything points to the crypts having once been a secret underground greenseer cavernous capital, which goes mostly deep. The seated warg kings on "thrones" with wolves and their bones kept there are a remainder of it. It's just at the bottom, it wouldn't look like graves, but weirwood thrones with skulls and bones littering the areas. The crypts as they are now is a huge hint to this, but the biggest hint to it are the hot springs. Hot springs are geographically caused by two phenomena: either volcanic activity OR deep fissures that reach through the crust all the way to the magma beneath the crust. So, either magma is near the surface, or caverns reach as deep as magma. In both cases heat generated by radioactive decay heats the underground rivers, and thus hot springs.

In the world book, maesters are only aware of volcanic activity as cause, but they do not have the knowledge about deep fissures. And here's the thing - neither in legends or tales or known written histories is there any mention of volcanic activity in and around the immediate environ of WF. So, the hot springs are not caused by volcanic activity (magma going to the surface), but because of fissures going deep and deep into the earth. That's why we do get figurative tales about a dragon sleeping deep underground at the lowest level of the crypts. It's also why the eldest graves are in the deepest vaults, and the most recent ones near the surface.

Once you recognize that WF was a "sanctuary" (deep cavernous sacred space and shelter) for both greenseers and people and CotF during the Long Night and that Brandon the Builder was such a greenseer (and not an architect... WF was never leveled even), you come to realize that the entrance into the crypts is the natural and only entrance into this underground shelter city. That's WHY it leads to the heart tree and godswood (which are located at the physical center, heart of the entire grounds). Nobody began to build anything there until the Long Night was a memory and petty kingdoms started to pop up... 100-200 years after BtB was last "seen". And where would they have started to build their first holdfast towers and fortresses, against other people? At the entrance into the sanctuary. That's why the oldest buildings are situated near the entrance into the crypts. And yes, later generations kept on building, and building, but they built beyond the entrance into the sanctuary and around the godswood.

This idea of a secret entrance into WF via the crypts shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how WF grew and what it originally was. When you realize that WF walls and stone constructions were basically the expansion beyond the sanctuary, and that the building commenced at the entrance into the undeground greenseer sanctuary, it becomes clear it's the sole entrance into the crypts, and therefore there cannot be another way outside of the walls in.

The "crypts" predate any building or stone constructions.

Edited November 21, 2023 by sweetsunray

[SeanF]

On 11/16/2023 at 4:13 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Why do so many people in this forum still hate Catelyn? Like, seriously folks. Catelyn is one of the least evil characters in this series who does some of the least "punishable" things. Are we talking about the same character? 

1. Tyrion murders his ex-lover out of revenge who was begging him to stop. He also orders several people's deaths, or callously disregards human life at several points out of spite/revenge. He also does horrible things to several women that if I bring up will cause Tyrion fan boys to come out of the wood works, so I wont' say exactly what he does. Most importantly, he murders his father clearly out of revenge. 

2. Arya is an assassin, assassinating people. She also kills people who have nothing to do with her, and certainly it seems for revenge-esq reasons. 

3. Daenerys (who I still think is a great lady) burned a woman alive and also hung up a bunch of people to slowly die (also approved torture once) out of revenge. 

4. Jon Snow, who again, a great person, still ordered a man executed pretty dang quickly for not following orders (felt a bit like revenge to me, I'm talking about Jonos Slynt). I'm finding it difficult to think of anything else Jon Snow does that is all that revenge-oriented. Maybe his....approval (if not order) of Alys Karstark's marriage to the Magnar of Thenn? 

5. Stannis murders his brother and also another dude with shadow babies. If we want to talk about revenge, Stannis is not a dude who lets revenge idyll. He would probably call it justice, but ....looks more like revenge sometimes. 

6. All of the Greyjoys do horrible things. Do I have to list them all? Many of those things were revenge oriented. 

7. The Martell plot line also has a lot of revenge, from Doran and the Sand Snakes(toward the Lannisters), but also Arianne is heavily motivated by revenge at her father for skipping her (she is wrong, but she thinks he did). 

8. Robert Baratheon's entire reason for being King (from his perspective) was revenge based, and arguably Eddard could have been revenge motivated as well (they did kill his father and brother). 

9. Tywin is a revenge-crazed dude who revenges every single small slight to his honor/Lannister pride. He would literally murder everyone in his path just because they said, "Lannisters smell like poop" or something equally as petty. 

Anyways, I feel tired. This concept that Catelyn Tully Stark is particularly motived by revenge is silly. Half the characters in these books are motivated by revenge. And again, this is important y'all, Lady Stoneheart isn't Catelyn. I thin GRRM wasn't even vague about this....it is clearly not her (maybe some remnant of her does exist within Lady Stoneheart...but the vast majority of what makes Lady Stoneheart is like just some crazed thoughts in the final seconds of a person's life...not the whole of that person). But even if Lady Stoneheart WAS Catelyn, she still wouldn't be the character most motivated by revenge or most deserving of "punishment". Firstly, she has already been punished, repeatedly. She deserves peace and solace. Secondly, she is mainly murdering Freys. ...Who murdered her family and people. If Lady Stoneheart represents anything in the story, it's like Karma for being a bad person (i.e. The Freys kind of deserve it). The concept that Catelyn herself deserves some sort of punishment is weird, because it directly goes against the thematic purpose that Lady Stoneheart seems to represent in the story : She represents the justifiable rage/anger that the characters who follow the rules of hospitality and don't do war crimes feel toward the ones who don't follow the rules of hospitality and do war crimes casually. 

Catelyn is the evil step-mother to some posters.  I’ve read people compare her to actual step-mothers they hate.

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Catelyn is the evil step-mother to some posters.  I’ve read people compare her to actual step-mothers they hate.

As much as GRRM tries to write beyond tropes, it's apparent people still use tropes when reading and understanding his works.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

Catelyn is the evil step-mother to some posters.  I’ve read people compare her to actual step-mothers they hate.

That is very confusing because....she isn't a step mother to three PoVs (plus the wife of another), and although she was awful to Jon...he actually spends very little time thinking about her (I think suggesting they didn't...speak much. They kept their distance. If she'd been constantly on him, I'd think he would think of her more). Theon as well could be in that position, but he doesn't say that much bad about Catelyn. So I find it odd to think of her that way, lol. 

[Northern Sword]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If Bran doesn't know it, nobody else does.

Everything points to the crypts having once been a secret underground greenseer cavernous capital, which goes mostly deep. The seated warg kings on "thrones" with wolves and their bones kept there are a remainder of it. It's just at the bottom, it wouldn't look like graves, but weirwood thrones with skulls and bones littering the areas. The crypts as they are now is a huge hint to this, but the biggest hint to it are the hot springs. Hot springs are geographically caused by two phenomena: either volcanic activity OR deep fissures that reach through the crust all the way to the magma beneath the crust. So, either magma is near the surface, or caverns reach as deep as magma. In both cases heat generated by radioactive decay heats the underground rivers, and thus hot springs.

In the world book, maesters are only aware of volcanic activity as cause, but they do not have the knowledge about deep fissures. And here's the thing - neither in legends or tales or known written histories is there any mention of volcanic activity in and around the immediate environ of WF. So, the hot springs are not caused by volcanic activity (magma going to the surface), but because of fissures going deep and deep into the earth. That's why we do get figurative tales about a dragon sleeping deep underground at the lowest level of the crypts. It's also why the eldest graves are in the deepest vaults, and the most recent ones near the surface.

Once you recognize that WF was a "sanctuary" (deep cavernous sacred space and shelter) for both greenseers and people and CotF during the Long Night and that Brandon the Builder was such a greenseer (and not an architect... WF was never leveled even), you come to realize that the entrance into the crypts is the natural and only entrance into this underground shelter city. That's WHY it leads to the heart tree and godswood (which are located at the physical center, heart of the entire grounds). Nobody began to build anything there until the Long Night was a memory and petty kingdoms started to pop up... 100-200 years after BtB was last "seen". And where would they have started to build their first holdfast towers and fortresses, against other people? At the entrance into the sanctuary. That's why the oldest buildings are situated near the entrance into the crypts. And yes, later generations kept on building, and building, but they built beyond the entrance into the sanctuary and around the godswood.

This idea of a secret entrance into WF via the crypts shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how WF grew and what it originally was. When you realize that WF walls and stone constructions were basically the expansion beyond the sanctuary, and that the building commenced at the entrance into the undeground greenseer sanctuary, it becomes clear it's the sole entrance into the crypts, and therefore there cannot be another way outside of the walls in.

The "crypts" predate any building or stone constructions.

I think we veered off topic a bit here, but agree with almost the entirety of what you are saying.

My point was that a 7 year not knowing something important, isn't some stretch. At this point in the story he isn't this all seeing, all knowing, omnipresent kid(yet) . He has some strange dreams at this point. That's about it. Making him the arbitrator of all knowledge is jumping the gun a bit.

It is also stated several times, how no one goes down into the depths of the crypts, so know one really knows. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To further your idea on the nature of the crypts a little further; A naturally made set of fissures that go DEEP. Deep enough that it is used as a refuge and sanctuary(I am fully on board with this). The nature of an elaborate set of fissures and tunnels that were made into crypts and subsequently protected by the first keep and walls, very well may have another secret yet to be disclosed.

Another way out if all is lost, which would also mean another way in. If Brandon the Builder was a greenseer and knew of them, his descendant Bran will uncovered it again as he is getting in touch with the past.

[Lord Varys]

The chance for Lady Dustin to abandon the Boltons is not so bad ... if Roose were to die or the tide would really turn against the Boltons.

But it is a pretty big load of wishful-thinking that the sister of Roose's late wife, a woman who is trusted implicitly by Roose Bolton, who sent very little help to Robb, who seems to loathe both Rickard and Eddard Stark with a vengeance ... suddenly just turns out to be a secret Stark loyalist.

She has no motivation for something like that, neither politically nor emotionally. The Starks are done, down to little children, the children of the man she hates. 

Why would she want to help them if she didn't before? Roose and Ramsay could be already done if Barrowton and the Ryswells had not backed the Boltons in the wake of the Red Wedding. Arnolf Karstark and Hother Umber might not have been keen to side with Ramsay if Lady Dustin hadn't made it clear where she was standing.

On 11/22/2023 at 4:22 PM, Northern Sword said:

To further your idea on the nature of the crypts a little further; A naturally made set of fissures that go DEEP. Deep enough that it is used as a refuge and sanctuary(I am fully on board with this). The nature of an elaborate set of fissures and tunnels that were made into crypts and subsequently protected by the first keep and walls, very well may have another secret yet to be disclosed.

Regardless what we fantasize might be in the crypts beneath Winterfell ... Bloodraven's cave also has at least one other exit, so if there were some kind of abandoned greenseer cave system part of the Winterfell crypts, then it could also have more than one exit.

But there are easier ways to get inside Winterfell if Stannis and his people prevail at the lake. The castle has a number of gates, there is factionalism inside, and the Manderlys and Karstarks (the latter are confirmed to be Stannis' people now) could convince the Boltons to open the gates, lure them outside, etc.

[Lady Ella]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The chance for Lady Dustin to abandon the Boltons is not so bad ... if Roose were to die or the tide would really turn against the Boltons.

But it is a pretty big load of wishful-thinking that the sister of Roose's late wife, a woman who is trusted implicitly by Roose Bolton, who sent very little help to Robb, who seems to loathe both Rickard and Eddard Stark with a vengeance ... suddenly just turns out to be a secret Stark loyalist.

She has no motivation for something like that, neither politically nor emotionally. The Starks are done, down to little children, the children of the man she hates. 

Why would she want to help them if she didn't before? Roose and Ramsay could be already done if Barrowton and the Ryswells had not backed the Boltons in the wake of the Red Wedding. Arnolf Karstark and Hother Umber might not have been keen to side with Ramsay if Lady Dustin hadn't made it clear where she was standing.

Lady Dustin does not need to love the Starks to know where her best interests lie. If Manderly has told her that the princes live, she has to take that seriously. Supporting Bolton in the absence of any Starks is one thing, openly opposing genuine, living Starks is quite another. It doesn't matter how she feels about the Starks personally or how young they are, what matters is what all the other northern lords do. Do you really think she would bet on the majority of northmen choosing the Boltons over the Starks?

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:47 PM, SeanF said:

Catelyn is the evil step-mother to some posters.  I’ve read people compare her to actual step-mothers they hate.

Catelyn caused a lot of damage to Westeros and brought pain to the people.  She brought much more harm than good.  I would not characterize her as evil.  In the end she might have been when she killed Walder's disabled son but it is more fair to say her sanity left her.  Catelyn went mad.  The way she treated Jon was better than many would have in that predicament.  Ned put the family in an awkward footing and Jon was not pleasant to be around either.  I think we have to give Catelyn a pass in the step-mothering department.  

[sweetsunray]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:22 PM, Northern Sword said:

My point was that a 7 year not knowing something important, isn't some stretch. At this point in the story he isn't this all seeing, all knowing, omnipresent kid(yet) . He has some strange dreams at this point. That's about it. Making him the arbitrator of all knowledge is jumping the gun a bit.

The point wasn't making him an all knowing boy at 7 before becoming a greenseer, or making him the arbiter of all knowledge.

The point was to set up a comparison: Bran not knowing of any "backdoor" for the crypts while he knows the layout and secret cutways better than anybody else even living in WF (the maester) at the start of the series versus this proposal that Barbrey and other lords who aren't Starks, who never lived at WF would know some secret way in, have the crypts opened, to smuggle in a murdering hooded man, to sow discord amongst the armies inside the castle.

Heck, it's being contemplated by the proposers as some "common secret knowledge" amongst the older generations of several northern houses, from the Neck to the Last Hearth. And that's absurd. That's what I mean with "If Bran doesn't know it, then nobody of House Ryswell, House Dustin or Last Hearth knows of it".

Quote

It is also stated several times, how no one goes down into the depths of the crypts, so know one really knows. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correction: it's stated a few times that the way into the lowest and oldest vault has collapsed. There's a physical obstruction that prevents maesters and present day Starks to explore or visit the lowest and oldest cavernous vaults of the crypts.

So, if that lowest vault was some secret way to a backdoor, then that backdoor would lead a man into being trapped.

Quote

The nature of an elaborate set of fissures and tunnels that were made into crypts and subsequently protected by the first keep and walls, very well may have another secret yet to be disclosed.

The walls of Winterfell were built by Edrick "Snowbeard" Stark. He reigned for almost a century, and one of the early kings of the whole North. His rule was troubled by quarrels amongst descendants, threat of Ironborn and the Boltons both, as well as slaving raiders capturing Wolf's Den (which roughly aligns with the era of the Andals conquering the Vale.) He was the king who ordered the outer walls that surround Winterfell to be built because of those threats and struggles. The walls were therefore built around the coming of the Andals in Westeros and House Stark was already a well established united kingdom "the North" for several thousands of years. How recent this is in comparison to their past is evident with Snowbeard being one of the king statues in the crypts in the upper vault (aCoK, Bran VII). In such times and with such rivalries and already so well established a family on a terrain as big as Winterfell, nobody's going to build walls and allow some backdoor to exist outside of those walls that becomes the common secret knowledge with other houses.

Yes, it's fun to speculate about all sorts of secrets about the crypts or Winterfell, a clutch of dragon eggs, harps, secret backdoors. My proposal of the sanctuary underground city, Brandon's origin also belong to that realm, because it hasn't been confirmed yet. But at least I my speculation is based on the knowledge about Winterfell: architectural, layout, natural phenomena, events inside or around the crypts, and world book history. The secret backdoor speculation or people arguing "well hypothetically there could be yet another secret and wouldnt that be fun" have not actually checked either the "history" of the grounds and castle, pondered architecture or even the layout of Winterfell. The Winterfell in their head and its coming into existence and creation is not the one that George began to textually build since the earliest chapters of aGoT (Bran's and Cat's).

The Winterfell in their head is: smaller than it is and leveled; the godswood is at the edge; the keeps or castles must have been the heart and everything else was built around that; the crypts were dug out as exclusive family graves; an architectural early completely First man-made wonder in stone that was built within the lifetime of one legendary man who was both founder, petty king and king of the entire north at once; it was always walled.

Most of the text and descriptions contradict that Winterfell in many a reader's head (explicitly).

So, yes, not all is confirmed or revealed yet. That allows for speculation. But some speculation actually uses information on Winterfell from the various sources and POVs, while others are absurd because based on a Winterfell contradicted by text and stuff that at least has been confirmed.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Lady Dustin is not loyal to the Starks.  All she wanted from Theon was the location of the tombs.  She can't keep her mouth shut because it was an emotional moment for her.  Those feelings for Brandon and the pain of losing Lord Dustin all came back within the walls of old Winterfell.  Lady Dustin is the opposite of Lord Manderly.  She hates the Starks.  

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Catelyn caused a lot of damage to Westeros and brought pain to the people.  She brought much more harm than good.  

No she didn’t. Delusional. This is a delusional take. 

It’s been awhile since I saw these kind of takes, and I will not pretend they make any sense upon their return. Jon Snow will cause more pain and death than most people if we think this way. Daenerys, Eddard, Tyrion, Stannis - Any noble with power as judgef through a similar lens would cause MORE problems then Catelyn. Did Catelyn push Tommen out a window? No that was Jaime. Did Catelyn have the Hanf secretly murdered? Nope tgat was Lysa and Petyr. Did Catelyn start a rebellion that killed thousands? Nope, that was first Tywin, then Robb, Stannis, and Renly. And in the past it was Robert and Eddard, and you can also blame Aerys, he certainly did more direct things then Catelyn did to cause Robert’s Rebellion. 

You are blaming Catelyn for deaths OTHERS much more directly caused, and you do not hold those others to the same standards you hold Catelyn (or dare I guess most female characters, as when people have made these takes in the past, they make similar takes about other women)

Note : Let me direct. The one, and only act that Catelyn took that directly caused any death was capturing Tyrion. Because like 5-10 people died on the road to the Vale. After that, the death is all on other people’s shoulders. Stop blaming Catelyn for things other people did. Lysa treated Tyrion like crap, held a sham of a trial, and didn’t hold Tyrion to be traded for Eddard. Eddard lost the game all on his own in King’s Landing with a series of blunders. Robb decided to rebel and refused to find peace terms with the Lannisters. Tywin invaded the Riverlands (which makes 0 sense if you really thin about it) and carried out war that he had no plan of stopping once Tyrion was returned to him. Cersei played the Game of Thrones which led to Eddard’s death and Sansa’s imprisonment, and of course..murdered the King which really kicked things off. Renly and Stannis declared themselves Kings and rebelled against the Iron Throne. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Lady Dustin is not loyal to the Starks.  All she wanted from Theon was the location of the tombs.  She can't keep her mouth shut because it was an emotional moment for her.  Those feelings for Brandon and the pain of losing Lord Dustin all came back within the walls of old Winterfell.  Lady Dustin is the opposite of Lord Manderly.  She hates the Starks.  

What y’all blindly saying Barbrey Dustin 100% hated the Starks are missing is this : She also 100% hates Ramsay Bolton, and I would argue she hates him MORE than rhe Starks by a signifigant margin. 

Honest question, who would you hate more? : Your coworker who’s bold new proposal got your husband fired, or your coworker who purposely under minded your favorite nephew in order to get him fired. Also he fires people of your gender for fun constantly. Also he is one of the most unpleasant people you’ve ever met. 

If you choose person 1, I honestly think you are just lying lol. Everyone, including Barbrey Dustin, would hate #2 more. She was speaking to Theon, who she believed will tell Ramsay or Roose everything she says. Period. You guys are giving her 0 credit and just taking her at her word, which makes no sense given the context of the situation. And she openly hates Ramsay. Guess who I never heard of her hating? Rickon Stark. Bran Stark. Sansa Stark. 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

No she didn’t. Delusional. This is a delusional take. 

You are replying to a delusional person, you know.

[StarkTullies]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is a pretty big load of wishful-thinking that the sister of Roose's late wife, a woman who is trusted implicitly by Roose Bolton, who sent very little help to Robb, who seems to loathe both Rickard and Eddard Stark with a vengeance ... suddenly just turns out to be a secret Stark loyalist.

As my username suggests, I am a Stark fan, but I am not an optimist in real-life or when reading fantasy.  My liking of the Starks does not make me see something that isn't there, and I am well aware that the Starks have enemies.  I can't speak for others, but my belief that Lady Dustin is secretly working against the Boltons has nothing to do with wishful thinking.  In fact, during the first read I took everything she said to Theon at face value, until I realized her apparent loyalty to the Boltons makes no sense.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Roose's late wife

Well, we don't know how much Roose's late wife loved Roose, but we know that Roose took part in First Night and raped women who cheated him of his "rights"... so I think it is safe to say that Barbrey did not love Roose as a husband to her sister.  More importantly than being Roose's former sister-in-law, Barbrey is also Domeric's aunt... and therefore she has plenty of reason to hate the Boltons.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

a woman who is trusted implicitly by Roose Bolton

First of all, I doubt Roose fully trusts anyone.  Second of all, if Barbrey is working against the Boltons, that's the point.  She is doing everything she can to gain this trust.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

who sent very little help to Robb

That's the best argument for proof of her dislike for the Starks, but there is a practical explanation for this too.  The early books don't mention Barbrey sending Robb aid or not sending him aid because... Barbrey Dustin did not exist.  Yes, Lord Dustin is mentioned as one of the men who died at the Tower of Joy, but I doubt Lord Dustin was anything more than just one other name George Martin listed at the time of A Game of Thrones.  Lady Dustin does not appear in the Appendices in the first several books, nor does Barrowton appear on the maps.  A plausible explanation had to be given why there was no mention of Lady Dustin in the early books when she was later gardened into the story.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

who seems to loathe both Rickard and Eddard Stark with a vengeance

Seems to.  Again, that's the point.  No one would believe that she likes the Boltons.  For such a "vengeful" person, she should be most vengeful toward the family who murdered her nephew.  She has to give a plausible reason why she would support the Boltons, and that "plausible" reason is hating the Starks.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She has no motivation for something like that, neither politically nor emotionally. The Starks are done, down to little children, the children of the man she hates. 

If she is 1/10th as vengeful as she wants to appear, vengeance is the motive.  Politically and emotionally, she would be motivated to destroy the family who murdered her nephew.

Little children grow up.  Manderly is more than happy to serve as Rickon's regent until he comes of age.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why would she want to help them if she didn't before?

I don't think she loves the Starks.  I think she has some level of bitterness toward Ned that she is overexaggerating to the extreme to Ramsay's pet.  She's not exactly going to confide to "Reek" that she hates his master.  This is not about Barbrey being pro-Stark, but anti-Bolton.  When she didn't help the Starks before (other than the "gardening" explanation I stated above), there was not a greater evil in power.

If she is just as petty and vengeful as she claims, she would be absolutely deranged to be more vengeful toward the children of the dead man who "wronged" her in regard to funeral arrangements of the stranger who rode to war immediately after she married him... than to the living Boltons who actually did wrong her by murdering her nephew. 

Regardless of her opinions of the Starks, it makes no sense that she is loyal to the Boltons.

Edited November 25, 2023 by StarkTullies

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Catelyn caused a lot of damage to Westeros and brought pain to the people.  She brought much more harm than good.  I would not characterize her as evil.  In the end she might have been when she killed Walder's disabled son but it is more fair to say her sanity left her.  Catelyn went mad.  The way she treated Jon was better than many would have in that predicament.  Ned put the family in an awkward footing and Jon was not pleasant to be around either.  I think we have to give Catelyn a pass in the step-mothering department.  

There were multiple causes of war, including the fall-out from Robert's rebellion; Robert's inability to restrain noble factionalism;  Cersei and Jaime's incest, and the latter's attempt to murder Bran;  the murder of Jon Arryn;  Littlefinger's plots;  Tywin's vicious ruthlessness, and his determination to rid the world of the Lannisters' enemies. 

Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion comes very low on the list.

[Lord Varys]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:22 PM, Lady Ella said:

Lady Dustin does not need to love the Starks to know where her best interests lie. If Manderly has told her that the princes live, she has to take that seriously. Supporting Bolton in the absence of any Starks is one thing, openly opposing genuine, living Starks is quite another. It doesn't matter how she feels about the Starks personally or how young they are, what matters is what all the other northern lords do. Do you really think she would bet on the majority of northmen choosing the Boltons over the Starks?

Her interests aren't the Starks. She profits from her deal with Roose.

It is exceedingly unlikely that anyone turns on Roose while no Stark boys are actually there. Manderly's play is a mad gamble. Roose has 'Arya Stark'. To challenge her, rumors about Rickon aren't enough - they need the actual boy with his living direwolf, or nobody is going to believe the story.

And Barbrey had the Boltons in her power at Barrowton. If she wanted to get rid of them, she already had her chance.

It also feels like a weird take that Manderly or anyone else would approach Roose Bolton's sister-in-law with such a plan. No guarantee that she wouldn't talk.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

As my username suggests, I am a Stark fan, but I am not an optimist in real-life or when reading fantasy.  My liking of the Starks does not make me see something that isn't there, and I am well aware that the Starks have enemies.  I can't speak for others, but my belief that Lady Dustin is secretly working against the Boltons has nothing to do with wishful thinking.  In fact, during the first read I took everything she said to Theon at face value, until I realized her apparent loyalty to the Boltons makes no sense.

It is wishful-thinking because it is a scenario which goes against everything that is implied. It is like the silly notion that the Tyrells fooled Cersei into accusing Margaery.

There is a chance for Barbrey switching horses - notably the current absence of 'Arya Stark' might be a first stepping stone.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

Well, we don't know how much Roose's late wife loved Roose, but we know that Roose took part in First Night and raped women who cheated him of his "rights"... so I think it is safe to say that Barbrey did not love Roose as a husband to her sister.  More importantly than being Roose's former sister-in-law, Barbrey is also Domeric's aunt... and therefore she has plenty of reason to hate the Boltons.

She does have a good reason to loathe Ramsay, but not Roose. And she doesn't hide what she feels for Ramsay. But Roose wouldn't trust her if he had a good reason to doubt her allegiance ... which he would if he thought her hating Ramsay would interfere with his plans.

The guy is not stupid and not easily fooled.

I wrote that Roose's death should change things for Barbrey ... but she is likely expecting that Roose will get rid of the bastard eventually. The guy is obviously a placeholder. There is little chance he actually wants or would allow Ramsay to murder his children by Walda. Rather it seems to me Roose intends to get rid of Ramsay as soon as 'Arya' has given birth to Ramsay's child.

Barbrey also likes manly men like Brandon. Men who take what they want. If Roose wants to fuck some miller woman she certainly should not hold that against him. Also I'm not sure if Bethany Ryswell Bolton was still around by the time Ramsay was conceived.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

First of all, I doubt Roose fully trusts anyone.  Second of all, if Barbrey is working against the Boltons, that's the point.  She is doing everything she can to gain this trust.

She had his trust when we first meet her, she didn't have to gain it. Which implies a long friendship ... which is not uncommon between siblings-in-law - which is what they are.

Barbrey's hatred of the Starks is much older than her feelings for Ramsay - and it might even be that she forged ties with Roose as early as Rickard spitting on her by offering Brandon's hand to Catelyn Tully, arranging her sister's marriage to Roose.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

That's the best argument for proof of her dislike for the Starks, but there is a practical explanation for this too.  The early books don't mention Barbrey sending Robb aid or not sending him aid because... Barbrey Dustin did not exist.  Yes, Lord Dustin is mentioned as one of the men who died at the Tower of Joy, but I doubt Lord Dustin was anything more than just one other name George Martin listed at the time of A Game of Thrones.  Lady Dustin does not appear in the Appendices in the first several books, nor does Barrowton appear on the maps.  A plausible explanation had to be given why there was no mention of Lady Dustin in the early books when she was later gardened into the story.

That is a bad take as it makes the author look like a moron. George was not forced to add this talk. And it must be true as Roose commanded the larger part of the army, meaning he would know the numbers.

It could have been easily possible that Lady Dustin sent a larger contingent to Robb.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

Seems to.  Again, that's the point.  No one would believe that she likes the Boltons.  For such a "vengeful" person, she should be most vengeful toward the family who murdered her nephew.  She has to give a plausible reason why she would support the Boltons, and that "plausible" reason is hating the Starks.

She is open about both, and she actually has no proof that Ramsay murdered Domeric. But she knows very well why she hates Ned and Rickard.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

If she is 1/10th as vengeful as she wants to appear, vengeance is the motive.  Politically and emotionally, she would be motivated to destroy the family who murdered her nephew.

Obviously she isn't, as she could have already killed Roose and, especially, Ramsay. Remember, she forced him to live outside her hall with the Stout guy. Would have been very easy to kill him there. All she would have needed was a dozen or so loyal men.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

Little children grow up.  Manderly is more than happy to serve as Rickon's regent until he comes of age.

It doesn't profit Lady Barbrey Dustin - who is now the second most powerful lord in the North, effectively Roose's lieutenant - to hand the North to Rickon's regent who is not her brother-in-law.

Also handing the North to a boy and potentially unstable regency government would be silly.

More importantly, though, Lord Manderly came to Winterfell to die in the process of his plans - and he almost is dead, already. Even if he hadn't been injured at the neck, he is too fat to ride, too fat to run. There is a very small chance that he survives the fighting. He won't accompany his army to the village at the lake, so Roose and Ramsay have every opportunity to butcher him if the tide turns against them. Whatever plans he has for Rickon Stark does not involve him ruling as regent. If anyone were to do this, it would be his son and heir Wylis who stayed behind in White Harbor.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

I don't think she loves the Starks.  I think she has some level of bitterness toward Ned that she is overexaggerating to the extreme to Ramsay's pet.  She's not exactly going to confide to "Reek" that she hates his master.  This is not about Barbrey being pro-Stark, but anti-Bolton.  When she didn't help the Starks before (other than the "gardening" explanation I stated above), there was not a greater evil in power.

Barbrey actually makes it very clear to Theon and everybody else that she hates Ramsay. This is no secret.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

If she is just as petty and vengeful as she claims, she would be absolutely deranged to be more vengeful toward the children of the dead man who "wronged" her in regard to funeral arrangements of the stranger who rode to war immediately after she married him... than to the living Boltons who actually did wrong her by murdering her nephew.

Her beef with Ned and Rickard is very old, and she feels very strongly about it. It is clear that she is more personally hurt over Brandon's loss ... but her father arranged another fine match for her, Lord Dustin, and then the Starks' petty ambitions and desires cost her that husband, too, ruining her life in the process (or so she seems to feel). This is no small thing. It is akin to Alaric Stark blaming King Jaehaerys I for the death of his brother Walton - irrational to nonsensical but still a very strong and powerful emotion.

Bottom line is - if there was a broader conspiracy against the Boltons then they would already be dead by now. Because it would not be hard for Barbrey, Hother, and the Manderlys to murder Roose and Ramsay at Winterfell (or earlier, at Barrowton, for Barbrey). In the wake of the Red Wedding they would have no problem getting away with blatant and open murder like that, and the Bolton men would yield at once if that means they could save their own skins.

Instead, Roose and Ramsay successfully conspired with Arnolf Karstark, making it clear that there was no broader communication among the Northern lord over certain things. Hother is clearly open and willing to jump ship if the tide turns against Roose, but he doesn't actively plan or prepare for that - and neither do the others.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Barbrey Dustin may have a genuine grudge against Ned but I don't think that she really extend this to Ned's children, and even if she does, she's most likely still working against the Boltons for she hates Ramsay far more that she could hate any Stark for what he has done to her beloved nephew and closest thing to a son who was Domeric, and that Roose lost any loyalty she may have had for him when he did nothing to punish Ramsay and avenge Domeric's death. She also surely isn't gullible about the Bolton's betrayal and their role in the Red Wedding where she lost men. 

And she may also know just how disastrous it will be for the North if the Boltons stay in power and that Ramsay ends up as its ruler after he succeeds Roose, hence another reason to plot against them.

[Northern Sword]

Barbrey Dunstin is a puzzle.

She may have this unrelenting hatred towards the Starks, and it is as simple as that. Clearly on the surface, that is a consistent message. It is not like she is hiding it.

Yet, underneath the surface, it may be a whole different story. She could be playing the double agent.

Or it could be somewhere in the middle. She hates the Starks for the past, whilst simultaneously not wanting the Bolton's in charge of the North in the future.

Taking anything at face value is a mistake.