Israel - Hamas War IX

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Ran said:

Is there anyone who isn't the Hamas-run Health Ministry able to confirm and verify the civilian vs. militant deaths?

I believe Save the Children and the UN have their estimates? And the WHO says the health ministry figures are reliable. Who has said the IDF claims are reliable? I haven't seen anyone so far, but I could have missed something.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And the WHO says the health ministry figures are reliable.

If you look, you'll find that they say they have been reliable in the past. Without independent verification, there is no way to know the reliability at this time.

Pretty sure the UN and Save the Children are using the Health Ministry, hard to see how they are capable of tracking deaths across Gaza.

To go back to war crimes, experts, and particularly Jabalya camp, this is a very even-handed discussion of how you assess these things.

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

And we don't know that answer. Someone should put it to the IDF, I suppose, but it's a hypothetical that no one else can answer for them.

That's an excellent point, actually. I had assumed the answer would be a categorical "no". But you're right, we really don't know.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's an excellent point, actually. I had assumed the answer would be a categorical "no". But you're right, we really don't know.

It reminds me of 9/11 and the call to potentially shoot down hijacked airliners, a call which Cheney initially made but which President Bush agreed with. As they said in interviews afterward, it wasn't a close call -- the harm another jet slamming into New York or DC or the Pentagon could cause outweighed the lives of the innocent hijacking victims.

It's a sort of trolley problem, I suppose.

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

“If it [Hezbollah] makes this kind of mistake here, the ones who will pay the price will be first and foremost Lebanese citizens,” Gallant told soldiers on Israel’s northern border in remarks relayed by his office.

“What we’re doing in Gaza, we can also do in Beirut.”

I don't know if this is just me interpreting it wrong, but it sounds like he's almost... Admitting to treating civilians badly and threatening to treat others in the same way?

[Ran]

What is "this kind of mistake" referring to? 

 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

What is "this kind of mistake" referring to? 

War with Israel?

[Ran]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

War with Israel?

Figured it'd be something more specific.

Lebanon is different than Gaza -- there are political parties and elections and Hezbollah doesn't hold a majority but of course is dangerous and influential. I would presume he's trying to send a message to the non-Hezbollah part of the political establishment about the consequences if Hezbollah tries to push Lebanon into a war against Israel, which would include, inevitably, serious harm to the civilian population.

[Craving Peaches]

From BBC reporter at the recent conference:

Quote

In private conversations on the sidelines, a number of Arab ministers told me of their fears that the high number of deaths among Palestinian civilians in Gaza was already radicalising some of their youth

...

[Ran]

Rebuilding of Gaza and statehood for Palestine will help deradicalize those who feel radicalized now, one may hope.

Also, the IDF reports that they counted over 50,000 who went south through the corridors today. There aren't more than 100k or 200k people left in the north, if I'm figuring this right.

[Zorral]

Israel's war on Hamas homes in on Gaza hospitals
November 11, 20231:12 PM ESTUpdated 23 min ago

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-rises-israel-faces-pressure-protect-palestinian-civilians-2023-11-11/

 

[Jace, Extat]

Isn't it hones in?

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Saying that he agrees that there are definitely war crimes happening when he doesn't go that far is pretty dishonest *of you.

This is why there is a link and the entire article can be read.  He was talking about genocide, particularly, by the way.

I didn't intend to say he said genocide was going on, I was amplifying/responding to the quote from the previous poster. I didn't make that clear.

Even so, when he says there is a difference between intending / desiring to commit genocide and actually committing genocide (and war crimes and certainly crimes against humanity) is splitting of hairs that only lawyers are probably comfortable with.  However, he does say that whether rhetorical/wanting genocide or committing intending genocide, Israel is at the tipping point of actually committing genocide.  And he asks, "Then what?"

* A lot less dishonest, shall we say, than what has been posted here over and over that Gazan civilians and hospitals are not being deliberately targeted,, or, if they are, they can't help it, and it's their own fault.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Zorral

[Craving Peaches]

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

Could this explain all the residential buildings being destroyed?

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

Could this explain all the residential buildings being destroyed?

Zero evidence of it.

As I also noted, the buildings being knocked down has more to do with a difference in how Israel looks at dual-use infrastructure compared to most other militaries (except Denmark, for some reason that probably has to do with the Vikings), and the paradox of precision.

[Zorral]

Maybe what the public learned from WWII was to try to stop war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide -- to not remain silent, to not protest such atrocities, no matter who is committing them and where they are committed.  People protest China's targeted treatment of the Uyghurs, for instance.  No one here objects to those protests, right?

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

It reminds me of 9/11 and the call to potentially shoot down hijacked airliners, a call which Cheney initially made but which President Bush agreed with. As they said in interviews afterward, it wasn't a close call -- the harm another jet slamming into New York or DC or the Pentagon could cause outweighed the lives of the innocent hijacking victims.

It's a sort of trolley problem, I suppose.

Scary shit right there. I agreed on your previous point about none of us knowing, but here I disagree a little. I think a hijacked plane that could potentially fly into any number of buildings causing more horrific loss of life is very different from civilians mixed in w/ terrorists/targets in a city that is not only encircled but has no real way of launching the type of attack a hijacked plane could. 

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

Rebuilding of Gaza and statehood for Palestine will help deradicalize those who feel radicalized now, one may hope.

Definitely, very much agree.
But the Israeli government has already said they’re going to “take over” (can’t remember exactly how Netanyahu phrased it) control of Gaza, and I don’t really see him/his government rebuilding Gaza or accepting a Palestinian state. 

[Kalbear]

@Fragile Bird, note that the Indonesian hospital that they're talking about is NOT the hospital currently under siege. The idf has not released that level of detail or design about that hospital. 

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I focus on the number of children because as others pointed out, fighters might be included among the dead adults. Not because I don't care about people other than children, as you seem to be implying (apologies if you are not, but that is how the comment comes across to me).

Hamas' numbers do not distinguish between Hamas fighters and civilians, let alone between Hamas fighters who are men and Hamas fighters who are under 18, or how many deaths under 18 are civilians and how many are Hamas fighters.