Israel - Hamas War IX

[Fragile Bird]

7 hours ago, Relic said:

You can repeat that, I suppose, but it's total bullshit. And a weak ass argument, as well.

Uh, I’m pretty sure in the first thread you were very sceptical about the description of the atrocities committed on Oct. 7, and actually you were the very first person to say Israelis were guilty of genocide, and you thought what happened was “a lid blowing off a pressure cooker”. You went on to say “The violence in Gaza is systemic, generational, genocidal, and mostly unwitnessed by westerners”.

The next person to say the Israelis were going to commit genocide was Rippounet, but at least he was responding to the news Israel was cutting off aid. He predicted that by the time the West had realized it condoned genocide it was going to be too late, and that hundreds of thousands of deaths could be expected.

I was looking at the first thread because I asked people to stop saying the Israelis planned to kill everyone in Gaza. Varysblackfyre scoffed at my statement, so I went back to see how that developed. It started with Craving Peaches (pg. 6) responding to Werthead commenting that he didn’t see how massive civilian casualties could be avoided, by saying “That is the the plan. To kill as many Palestinians as possible”, (well, after the two genocide comments), a version of that comment Peaches makes repeatedly in the threads.

I never posted the above because I kept reading the first couple of threads to see the wild and crazy comments being made. Thread one, to me, will always be if babies were beheaded, babies were accidentally beheaded because, well, machine guns ya know. Hamas wouldn’t do that on purpose, right?

[Kalbear]

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It’s almost irrelevant, they killed babies, just because they didn’t behead them doesn’t make them any better. Not sure why the point keeps coming up.

Because it was one baby, no burning alive, and facts matter. Especially when using very inflammatory things. 

It also matters when looking at biases and how engaged people are.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Because it was one baby, no burning alive, and facts matter. Especially when using very inflammatory things. 

It also matters when looking at biases and how engaged people are.

It’s hardly like Hamas are saying ‘yeah we butchered a load of civilians, raped and paraded a naked woman’s body around, machined gunned a music festival, but we only killed one baby, and it wasn’t beheaded… we aren’t total monsters!’

Guess what, they are total monsters

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

It’s hardly like Hamas are saying ‘yeah we butchered a load of civilians, raped and paraded a naked woman’s body around, machined gunned a music festival, but we only killed one baby, and it wasn’t beheaded… we aren’t total monsters!’

Guess what, they are total monsters

No argument. So why not say that instead of things proven to be incorrect and without evidence?

[Hmmm]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because it was one baby, no burning alive, and facts matter. Especially when using very inflammatory things. 

It also matters when looking at biases and how engaged people are.

There is proof of one beheaded baby. They killed more than one. As for being burned alive, that seems to have been a very common cause of death during the attacks on the kibbutzes. What are you talking about?

Edited November 12, 2023 by Hmmm

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

“That is the the plan. To kill as many Palestinians as possible”,

Yes, that was a silly statement to make. I think I was very stressed and upset when I made it. It's obviously untrue since far more Palestinians could have been killed. Though I still think the number of deaths is too high as it is.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No argument. So why not say that instead of things proven to be incorrect and without evidence?

If people are using outdated info then fine, but on this it just seems so academic to even quibble over how many babies were killed. 

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

a version of that comment Peaches makes repeatedly in the threads.

Would you mind pointing out where I've said that since? All I can recall saying since is that ministers comments combined with the proposed plan to force all Gazans into the Sinai desert sounded like they were wanting ethnic cleansing in Gaza (I don't see what is unreasonable about that conclusion based on the evidence), and that tens of thousands of people were going to die (which if the figures are accurate is sadly true, since over ten thousand people are reported dead).

Edited November 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

I really don't get why the Hamas spokesperson feels it is appropriate for Hamas to criticise Israel for not upholding international law... He does realise he has no leg to stand on, right?

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

There is proof of one beheaded baby.

No, there is proof of one dead baby, and it's not clear how they died.

10 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

They killed more than one.

Citation needed.

10 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

As for being burned alive, that seems to have been a very common cause of death during the attacks on the kibbutzes. What are you talking about?

I don't believe that is accurate. What are you talking about?

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

If people are using outdated info then fine, but on this it just seems so academic to even quibble over how many babies were killed. 

When it was used as a way to justify Israel reaction and get people to want to kill all the Palestinians, it matters. 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

When it was used as a way to justify Israel reaction and get people to want to kill all the Palestinians, it matters. 

Only if you think the reality of what Hamas did was somehow acceptable. There isn’t really any difference between beheading one child or many, or whether a child was beheaded or just shot dead intentionally. It’s all barbarism 

[Hmmm]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No, there is proof of one dead baby, and it's not clear how they died.

Citation needed.

I don't believe that is accurate. What are you talking about?

There are pictures of more than one dead baby. I am not going to link them here. Maybe the first one cut its own head off though, so you may be right. 

As for your second point, I advise you to actually read up on the October 7 attacks. I am not your google. Many people were killed by being zip-tied together and then left in their homes as they were set on fire. Others (seemingly a pretty large proportion of the total kibbutz victims) managed to barricade themselves in their bomb shelters, and were killed as the terrorists burned their homes down rather than bothering to get them out.

There are also images and videos of people who have clearly been doused with flammable liquid and set on fire, though there it is unclear whether they were shot or stabbed to death first. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Hmmm

[Kalbear]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Only if you think the reality of what Hamas did was somehow acceptable. There isn’t really any difference between beheading one child or many, or whether a child was beheaded or just shot dead intentionally. It’s all barbarism 

It clearly does matter to some people. It is the difference between wanting to end hamas and wanting to kill Palestinians. 

If the rhetoric didn't matter why does it spread? Why repeat the false stories? I agree that it shouldn't l, but it does.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Hmmm said:

There are pictures of more than one dead baby. I am not going to link them here. Maybe the first one cut its own head off though, so you may be right. 

As for your second point, I advise you to actually read up on the October 7 attacks. I am not your google. Many people were killed by being zip-tied together and then left in their homes as they were set on fire. Others (seemingly a pretty large proportion of the total kibbutz victims) managed to barricade themselves in their bomb shelters, and were killed as the terrorists burned their homes down rather than bothering to get them out.

There are also images and videos of people who have clearly been doused with flammable liquid and set on fire, though there it is unclear whether they were shot or stabbed to death first. 

K, so no reputable sources. That's what I thought. Thanks!

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

It clearly does matter to some people. It is the difference between wanting to end hamas and wanting to kill Palestinians. 

If the rhetoric didn't matter why does it spread? Why repeat the false stories? I agree that it shouldn't l, but it does.

The reality is that Hamas butchered a load of civilians intentionally in a horrific attack. Whether people believe they beheaded babies or not wont move the needle on peoples opinion because the reality is equally terrible.

[Zorral]

And yet:

'We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023,' Israeli Minister Says on Northern Gaza Strip Evacuation
Likud Minister Avi Dichter says that 'war is impossible to wage when there are masses between the tanks and the soldiers.' While Netanyahu does not support resettling the Gaza Strip, he says will not give up security control over it 'under any circumstances'

Michael Hauser Tov
Nov 12, 2023 11:45 am IST

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-12/ty-article/israeli-security-cabinet-member-calls-north-gaza-evacuation-nakba-2023/0000018b-c2be-dea2-a9bf-d2be7b670000

Quote

 

Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) was asked in a news interview on Saturday whether the images of northern Gaza Strip residents evacuating south on the IDF’s orders are comparable to images of the Nakba. He replied: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war – as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza – with masses between the tanks and the soldiers.”

When asked again whether this was the “Gaza Nakba”, Dichter – a member of the security cabinet and former Shin Bet director – said “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.”

When later asked if this means Gaza City residents won’t be allowed to return, he replied: “I don’t know how it’ll end up happening since Gaza City is one-third of the Strip – half the land’s population but a third of the territory.” ....

 

So this evacuation is ... ethnic cleansing (as opposed to genocide?)and land seizure?

Edited November 12, 2023 by Zorral

[Zorral]

39 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

he was responding to the news Israel was cutting off aid. He predicted that by the time the West had realized it condoned genocide it was going to be too late, and that hundreds of thousands of deaths could be expected.

You seem not to have noticed how much pressure, world opinion both here and everywhere, has been put upon both the US and Bibi's ilks to not do that -- at least as overtly.  Anyone could see that it wouldn't take long for a genocide within that prison that Gaza is without power, food, water, medical care, etc.  As it is, it's damned bad.  And it would be worse, and will be worse, without keeping the pressure on them.  There is no good outcome for the Palestinians here, even so. 

[Ran]

Only people who believe the worst of Israel genuinely believed they were just going to starve to death hundreds of thousands.

I assumed most of the people (most) on this forum did so purely rhetorically and didn't actually think it would happen, but what do I know. But in any case, any one with any sober view of reality knew the death toll of this conflict was going to be measured at an order of magnitude, at least, beneath those scare figures.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Only people who believe the worst of Israel genuinely believed they were just going to starve to death hundreds of thousands.

Also, even if you do believe the worst of them, you would also have to believe the worst of everyone else (that they would do nothing as hundreds of thousands of people starved to death), because I do think other countries would step in at that point.