NBA the slenderman cometh.

[Arakasi]

Well hitting some threes will help that. Problem though i those two take too many nights off. I mean you can’t blame James at that age but it’s pretty clear if the lakers play hard they’re competitive and if they don’t they get crushed. Ham isn’t a great coach either but effort is their main issue.

[BigFatCoward]

Sabonis feels like the biggest snub by far for the ASG. Though Young's raw numbers (10th in scoring and 2nd in assists) also probably deserve a mention.  

[BigFatCoward]

Looks like Embiid is definitely not going to play enough games to win MVP.  No matter, top 4 in the bookies are still non American.  i'm surprised SGA is 2nd ahead of Luka, even accounting for team success. 

on the non American front, I read that the top 3 draft picks for next year could be 'foreign' again, i know literally nothing about any of the, or the Americans for that matter.  Is it because they are the best 3 players, or because there is a recent trend of non American picks really really working out?

Edited February 2 by BigFatCoward

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I mentioned before this year is expected to be a weak draft class. Normally by now you'd hear about 1-3 guys getting hype. It's mostly been crickets. 

[DMC]

I think it's mostly coincidental.  As Ty said this looks like a REALLY bad draft, and I've seen a lot of variation in mocks currently.  It's true there's at least three foreign guys at the top of most boards, but I've also seen Cody Williams in the top 3 of some (and even first).  I've also seen Reed Sheppard, Ja'Kobe Walter, and Matas Buzelis (who sounds foreign but was born and raised in Chicago) in the mix.

Think it should also be noted that beyond Wemby, 12 of the 14 top rookies this year are American.  Last year, 8 of the 10 that made All-Rookie Teams were American.  The year before, 7 out of 10.  Year before that, 10 out of 10 (albeit that doesn't count Sengun).

Which, again, suggests this is an aberration.  Or, at least, American basketball definitely doesn't have a youth problem.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I've literally never heard of any of the dudes mention as lottery picks when I Googled a mock draft. Even if this is an especially bad year, what I can't explain is why the last several classes have produced so few stars at the top end. It's basically Tatum, Ant, Zion when healthy, Ja when he's not waving a gun around (and I pointed out several times before his health will be a real problem) and the PB, Wemby and Chet. Maybe I'm missing a few guys, but the league seems to be producing a lot of good middle class players, but not a ton of clear stars. 

[Proudfeet]

I think that expected quality of American(NCAA) draftees aside, the success of Jokic and Doncic made teams and fans more receptive of foreign players. Back when Doncic was drafted, there was a lot of doubt on the quality of foreign leagues. There was a lot of doubt in between the hype.

Not sure how the perception of the G league is for the players skipping college. They do get drafted early, but guess its too soon to know if they will be successful or not.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Even if this is an especially bad year, what I can't explain is why the last several classes have produced so few stars at the top end. It's basically Tatum, Ant, Zion when healthy, Ja when he's not waving a gun around (and I pointed out several times before his health will be a real problem) and the PB, Wemby and Chet. Maybe I'm missing a few guys, but the league seems to be producing a lot of good middle class players, but not a ton of clear stars. 

I dunno, some of this would be injuries, but if we're going back to Tatum's draft - 2017 - you're plainly missing some players..or do you only mean Americans (which would be confusing since you're including Wemby.  I'm not gonna count this year's and last year's yet because it's still too early - plus as you mentioned there's already PB, Wemby, and Chet.

In 2021, it did look promising off the bat, but both Cunningham and Mobley have stunted their development for various reasons, so yeah, that's disappointing.  Still, you have Barnes and Wagner and Sengun, which isn't terrible.  Plus Suggs!

In 2020, you got Ant and Haliburton -- that's a pretty solid start.  LaMelo Ball also probably would be up there if it wasn't for injuries.

In 2019, yeah, there's Zion and Ja whose issues are clear.  Garland also could still make the leap I suppose.  The big disappointment there was Barrett.

In 2018, there's Doncic, SGA, Jackson, and Young.  That's pretty damn good.

And finally, in 2017, there's Tatum, Mitchell, Fox, Adebayo, and Markkanen.

Honestly I don't really see the problem here taken as a whole and accounting for development yet to be determined for the younger classes.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I dunno, some of this would be injuries, but if we're going back to Tatum's draft - 2017 - you're plainly missing some players..or do you only mean Americans (which would be confusing since you're including Wemby.  I'm not gonna count this year's and last year's yet because it's still too early - plus as you mentioned there's already PB, Wemby, and Chet.

In 2021, it did look promising off the bat, but both Cunningham and Mobley have stunted their development for various reasons, so yeah, that's disappointing.  Still, you have Barnes and Wagner and Sengun, which isn't terrible.  Plus Suggs!

In 2020, you got Ant and Haliburton -- that's a pretty solid start.  LaMelo Ball also probably would be up there if it wasn't for injuries.

In 2019, yeah, there's Zion and Ja whose issues are clear.  Garland also could still make the leap I suppose.  The big disappointment there was Barrett.

In 2018, there's Doncic, SGA, Jackson, and Young.  That's pretty damn good.

And finally, in 2017, there's Tatum, Mitchell, Fox, Adebayo, and Markkanen.

Honestly I don't really see the problem here taken as a whole and accounting for development yet to be determined for the younger classes.

I knew I was forgetting someone, Haliburton has top 10 potential. And I wasn't trying to imply the recent drafts are garbage, just that there's been a lot of players that you'd hope to be the third or fourth best guy on a team that could make a deep run. Mobley is nice, but I'm not sold after his hot start. Cade has been a disappointment, but I've always said they're using him wrong (make him a 3 or 4 that can pass, not a 1).  Barnes and Wagner are players every team would want, but they're kind of fringe all-stars because of how loaded the league is. Sengun is interesting, not because he's better than any of the players you've listed, but because the Rockets seem really ahead of schedule. If their young talent develops plus maybe signing a high end free agent they could be a real problem in 1-2 years. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Barnes and Wagner are players every team would want, but they're kind of fringe all-stars because of how loaded the league is.

Probably but ya never know.  I think they could develop into perennial all-stars - albeit almost certainly not top 10 in the league if that's your barometer.  Especially if - as I mentioned last night - they expand the ASG rosters to 15 which they should since the league's so loaded.  Then we're talking a rough estimate of the top 30.

I guess my response was thinking that for any given draft, you shouldn't expect to find more than 3 to 4 "perennial all-stars."  For the most part, that's been the case -- or clearly could be the case when it comes to the last three drafts.  With Ja and Zion plainly fucking this up for the 2019 class.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

Probably but ya never know.  I think they could develop into perennial all-stars - albeit almost certainly not top 10 in the league if that's your barometer.  Especially if - as I mentioned last night - they expand the ASG rosters to 15 which they should since the league's so loaded.  Then we're talking a rough estimate of the top 30.

It's possible, but I think players like that would benefit more from having two new franchises in Seattle and LV. And with two more teams it's easy to say there needs to be more AS spots.

Quote

I guess my response was thinking that for any given draft, you shouldn't expect to find more than 3 to 4 "perennial all-stars."  For the most part, that's been the case -- or clearly could be the case when it comes to the last three drafts.  With Ja and Zion plainly fucking this up for the 2019 class.

In general that's fair, but lately it does feel like we're getting a lot of really good secondary players. Perhaps that's just because we're still fixated on the last generation though, 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

And with two more teams it's easy to say there needs to be more AS spots.

I think the argument for increasing it to 15 is already manifest since they changed the active rosters to 15.  The 12 person team is now a relic.

6 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

In general that's fair, but lately it does feel like we're getting a lot of really good secondary players. Perhaps that's just because we're still fixated on the last generation though, 

Yeah I think it's hard to shift focus when you have all-timers with James, Durant, and Curry still being awesome in their mid-to-late 30s.  Hell, going down a level you could add Lillard, Butler, and the entire Los Angeles Clippers too. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

57 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think the argument for increasing it to 15 is already manifest since they changed the active rosters to 15.  The 12 person team is now a relic.

I guess the only counterargument is how contracts work, but otherwise I agree.

Quote

Yeah I think it's hard to shift focus when you have all-timers with James, Durant, and Curry still being awesome in their mid-to-late 30s.  Hell, going down a level you could add Lillard, Butler, and the entire Los Angeles Clippers too. 

I do wish they'd highlight the younger players. It would be good for them to get exposure and like I mentioned help on their second or third contracts.  

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I guess the only counterargument is how contracts work, but otherwise I agree.

If you're referring to two-way players, those are in addition to the 15 player cap.  For instance, the Magic currently have 15 players under NBA contract and three (the max) under two-way contracts, for a total of 18.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

39 minutes ago, DMC said:

If you're referring to two-way players, those are in addition to the 15 player cap.  For instance, the Magic currently have 15 players under NBA contract and three (the max) under two-way contracts, for a total of 18.

No I just meant how contracts work if a player makes it to an All-Star game and in general I want them to get paid. 

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No I just meant how contracts work if a player makes it to an All-Star game and in general I want them to get paid. 

Ah, yeah me too.

[DMC]

Impressive win for the Magic last night at Minnesota.  It was the first game since October they were completely healthy.

In a way, that's pretty great timing.  They're just about finished with a grueling schedule since Mid-December not only in terms of quality of opponents, but also really long road trips and the home/away split.  I'm pretty sure going forward they have the easiest schedule in the league.

Speaking of the draft, that's why I really hope they use their first rounder in June along with an expiring to pick up a shooter and/or point guard by Thursday's deadline.  Always the big if, but if they can just stay relatively healthy they should be able to make a run these last 33 games and be one of those teams you don't wanna play in the first round.

At the end of the game last night (and this isn't the first time they've used this lately), they employed a jumbo lineup of Suggs/Wagner/Banchero/Isaac/Carter.  That's not only incredibly long, but also incredibly difficult to score on.  And frankly, they're not losing that much offensively vis-a-vis their starting lineup by replacing Fultz with Isaac.  Indeed, Isaac had a key putback in the final 90 seconds that most everyone else on their team isn't physically capable of.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

LaVine is out 4-6 months now. The Bulls have had horrific injury luck for like a decade and a half now. 

3 hours ago, DMC said:

Impressive win for the Magic last night at Minnesota.  It was the first game since October they were completely healthy.

It was a good game and the teams are pretty even. I still think both are a year ahead of schedule, but the trajectory looks good. 

Edited February 3 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[DireWolfSpirit]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

LaVine is out 4-6 months now. The Bulls have had horrific injury luck for like a decade and a half now. 

They aint getting many takers on picking up his money already, this will probably make him such a negative asset they will have to include picks or something to move him. 

Pay me to take that contract scenario imo.

[DMC]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It was a good game and the teams are pretty even. I still think both are a year ahead of schedule, but the trajectory looks good. 

I dunno, I think the Wolves have the opportunity to compete this year - and are currently the better team (Magic had to come back from a 17 point deficit).  Of course, that makes sense considering KAT and Gobert are in their primes -- albeit, I get what you mean in that Edwards and McDaniels are at pretty much the same stage as Orlando's guys.

Seemed to me the Wolves could use a point guard too.  Conley looks pretty limited.  I still remember seeing him in a OSU/UF game with Oden and Noah/Horford/Brewer on UF.  Crazy to me that two of them are still in the league considering how long ago that seems.

2 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

They aint getting many takers on picking up his money already, this will probably make him such a negative asset they will have to include picks or something to move him. 

Pay me to take that contract scenario imo.

I imagine they'll wait til the offseason at this point to try again.