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Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier


Zorral
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5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Nope. People seem very comfortable equating Netanyahu with all of Israel while saying how dare you conflate Hamas with Palestinians. 

The double standard is glaring. Again, heads I lose, tails you win. Over and over.  

I’m sure some people do. I disagree w/ it. I disagree w/ generalisations like this b/c they are never accurate. 

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9 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Maybe taking an anecdote as evidence of an entire group doing something is a bad idea?  You can just say "this behavior is wrong" or whatever without having to slap  an LGBTQ label on it.   

 

I’m happy to say defending the Heretical Religious Extremist organization Hamas is wrong and disgusting… whoever is doing the defending and apologia for them.

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1 minute ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Right but that's not what's happening now is it?  Because we are over a month out from the response, and that's what's being criticized.  No one is saying they shouldn't respond, so can we stop that?

MFC almost certainly wasn't.

Not really. Is this all that different from people saying they think it's okay to protest, but then always saying, "not like that?" Hamas is a guerilla terrorist organization and most people agree about this. They're hiding while amongst civilians while still attacking and holding hostages. It's impossible to fight them without civilian causalities. Does that give Israel a free license? Of course not. But Idk what you want them to do if you agree they should counterattack and also do as little damage as possible while rooting out Hamas. You can't really have it both ways.  

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7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Likud has allowed Hamas to rise to power for a reason.  Likud wants an excuse to use a heavy hand againt Palestinians… everywhere.  As such… yeah… I equate them with Hamas.

I hope they and Netanyahu are out of power and never rise back to power.

Sure, but that doesn't make them equally responsible for what Hamas did. Not even close. 

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not really. Is this all that different from people saying they think it's okay to protest, but then always saying, "not like that?" Hamas is a guerilla terrorist organization and most people agree about this. They're hiding while amongst civilians while still attacking and holding hostages. It's impossible to fight them without civilian causalities. Does that give Israel a free license? Of course not. But Idk what you want them to do if you agree they should counterattack and also do as little damage as possible while rooting out Hamas. You can't really have it both ways.  

Is the kind of bombing we've seen the only way to bring terrorists to justice? Are you saying that the way this has played out is the only way?

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As Congress Weighs Aid to Israel, Some Democrats Want Strings Attached
Democrats are clashing with each other and the Biden administration over whether to attach conditions, including measures to avoid civilian casualties, to a major infusion of security assistance.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/us/politics/israel-aid-senate.html

Quote

 

... the latest reflection of a growing rift within the party over support for the Jewish state.

The debate is a striking departure from longstanding practice on Capitol Hill, where for decades, lawmakers have approved huge amounts of military funding for Israel with few strings attached. Now, as Israel battles Hamas in a conflict whose civilian death toll has soared, a growing number of Democrats are voicing worry about how American dollars will be used.

The issue could come to a head on the Senate floor as early as next week, when Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the majority leader, has said the chamber could begin work on a legislative package including the aid measure. ....

 

 

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THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Understanding the True Nature of the Hamas-Israel Wa
r

" ... a revamped Palestinian Authority is the keystone for the forces of moderation, coexistence and decency triumphing in all three wars. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/opinion/israel-palestinians-war-iran.html

Quote

 

The reason the Hamas-Israel war can be hard for outsiders to understand is that three wars are going on at the same time: a war between Israeli Jews and the Palestinians exacerbated by a terrorist group, a war within Israeli and Palestinian societies over the future, and a war between Iran and its proxies and America and its allies.

But before we dig into those wars, here’s the most important thing to keep in mind about them: There’s a single formula that can maximize the chances that the forces of decency can prevail in all three. It is the formula that I think President Biden is pushing, even if he can’t spell it all out publicly now — and we should all push it with him: You should want Hamas defeated; as many Gazan civilians as possible spared; Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and his extremist allies booted; all the hostages returned; Iran deterred; and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank reinvigorated in partnership with moderate Arab states.

Pay particular attention to that last point: a revamped Palestinian Authority is the keystone for the forces of moderation, coexistence and decency triumphing in all three wars. It is the keystone for reviving a two-state solution. It is the keystone for creating a stable foundation for the normalization of relations between Israel, Saudi Arabia and the wider Arab-Muslim world. And it is the keystone for creating an alliance between Israel, moderate Arabs, the United States and NATO that can weaken Iran and its proxies Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis — all of whom are up to no good.

Unfortunately, as Haaretz’s military correspondent, Amos Harel, reported on Tuesday, Netanyahu “is locked in by the extreme right and the settlers, who are fighting an all-out war against the idea of any involvement of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza mainly out of fear that the United States and Saudi Arabia will exploit such a move to restart the political process and push for a two-state solution in a way that will require Israel to make concessions in the West Bank.” So, Netanyahu, “under pressure from his political partners, has banned any discussion of this option.” ....

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Is the kind of bombing we've seen the only way to bring terrorists to justice? Are you saying that the way this has played out is the only way?

No, and I think the sustained bombing is misguided for several reasons. That said, the only other real option to dismantle Hamas would be a full ground invasion and that too would be heavily criticized. Israel didn't have any good options and were caught flatfooted. 

Edited by Tywin et al.
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23 minutes ago, Zorral said:

THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Understanding the True Nature of the Hamas-Israel Wa
r

" ... a revamped Palestinian Authority is the keystone for the forces of moderation, coexistence and decency triumphing in all three wars. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/opinion/israel-palestinians-war-iran.html

 

There's an easy answer to the question imo. Replace Israel as the country who will get X, Y or Z with... basically any country and see what the answer is. 

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Deaths from disease in Gaza could outstrip deaths from war, UN says
Organisation warns that people are starving, lack clean water and the diarrhoea rate is up 45 times compared with a year ago

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/deaths-from-disease-in-gaza-could-outstrip-deaths-from-war-un-says
 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Nope. People seem very comfortable equating Netanyahu with all of Israel while saying how dare you conflate Hamas with Palestinians. 

The double standard is glaring. Again, heads I lose, tails you win. Over and over.  

Netanyahu is literally the leader of the Israeli government and he and his party have been in power for almost two decades. He literally represents the majority view of Israelis. 

Hamas is an unelected government in one part of the areas Palestinians are.

You're right to say that it isn't a fair comparison - it is far more accurate to lump Israelis with Netanyahu than it is to lump Palestinians with hamas.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not really. Is this all that different from people saying they think it's okay to protest, but then always saying, "not like that?" Hamas is a guerilla terrorist organization and most people agree about this. They're hiding while amongst civilians while still attacking and holding hostages. It's impossible to fight them without civilian causalities. Does that give Israel a free license? Of course not. But Idk what you want them to do if you agree they should counterattack and also do as little damage as possible while rooting out Hamas. You can't really have it both ways.  

You can actually, as we have seen with several modern wars. For example, you could not cut off food and water. You could not, for example, drop more bombs in the region than all the bombs that were dropped in Afghanistan and Iraq in the first 5 years of those wars. You can choose not to bomb refugee camps. 

Again I will note that the Israeli army took over the hamas hq (they said) without dropping any bombs, and took the place without any reported deaths and either minimal or no civilian casualties. Israel has already shown they have this capability.

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14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Netanyahu is literally the leader of the Israeli government and he and his party have been in power for almost two decades. He literally represents the majority view of Israelis. 

Hamas is an unelected government in one part of the areas Palestinians are.

You're right to say that it isn't a fair comparison - it is far more accurate to lump Israelis with Netanyahu than it is to lump Palestinians with hamas.

Both are incredibly unfair and reactionary.  Israeli’s have been protesting by the thousands against Netanyahu and Likud for months.  Palestinians have never made Hamas their government… Hamas simply took control and sought to impose their religious fanaticism upon the people of Gaza.

Both Likud and Hamas are awful.

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Both are incredibly unfair and reactionary.  Israeli’s have been protesting by the thousands against Netanyahu and Likud for months.

But not because of Palestinians. Again, most of the supposed centrist and liberal parties of Israel also do not support a Palestinian state.

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 Palestinians have never made Hamas their government… Hamas simply took control and sought to impose their religious fanaticism upon the people of Gaza.

Both Likud and Hamas are awful.

Hamas did win an election but that was 17 years ago. Even then, it's still overstating things to say they don't have support. As it turns out when your people are regularly imprisoned without reason or trial, regularly killed by settlers and military, when you need special permission to just get medical care, and this has been going on for 75 years - quite a few people will support radical causes.

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4 hours ago, mormont said:

Is there any really good reason why Israelis can't get rid of Netanyahu right now?

Since his gov is made of a coalition of parties, it would require one of those parties leaving to bring them below the required number of seats. Actually, it would require multiple parties since Gantz's 12 seats joined for a war-time unity gov.

While it is possible Gantz would also pull his party out to force new elections if one of Bibi's far right allies left, it's also possible he would attempt to avoid forcing new elections before the war was finished.

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

He's terrible. I was listening to something earlier and apparently there is more reporting on how the government dismissed several alerts about a possible major attack by Hamas. If that is true, and it increasingly seems to be, those who dismissed these alerts have at least some responsibility for the horrors of October 7.

I also don't really know how the political system works in Israel, but apparently the next general election will be almost 3 years from now, in October 2026. I don't know whether popular pressure, strikes, whatever, can change that. It's also concerning that the coalition of parties that support him hold a vast majority, like 75 seats out of 120 or something? And because of the terrorist attack by Hamas, even many of the moderates seem to be supporting him now. :(

It's inaccurate to say moderates are supporting him (Gantz joined an emergency war-time gov, but didn't suddenly become a Bibi supporter, and will almost certainly be his main opponent in any election). Even many of his own supporters say he will have to go. But it would be difficult to hold new elections during the war. Perhaps the best temporary solution would be for Likud to boot him, but not sure how that would unfold.

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

This is because Likud loves the fear and desperation that Hamas creates.  They probably wanted small scale attacks to push that fear and drive up their support.  I hope it costs Netanyahu the PM’s seat and Likud the Knesset.

On the contrary. Hamas attacks reflect badly on them with their voters. Their whole shtick has been that only they can prevent attacks. This has ruined them with the people that actually believed that. Hence why every poll since Oct 7 has them down below 20 seats from 32.

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1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

On the contrary. Hamas attacks reflect badly on them with their voters. Their whole shtick has been that only they can prevent attacks. This has ruined them with the people that actually believed that. Hence why every poll since Oct 7 has them down below 20 seats from 32.

Hamas attacks haven't reflected badly up until now. As long as they were limited and relatively impotent Netanyahu was fine. Attacks at THIS SCALE are obviously going to be a setback for him, but the general policy of letting Hamas do rocket attacks every couple of years in exchange for being bombed was working real well for Netanyahu and Likud. 

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

They allowed, even encouraged, Hamas to come to Power in Gaza in an effort to kill the two State settlement in order to allow Settlers to continue to flood into the West Bank.  

Likud loves Hamas because it makes Palestinians look like terrorists.  

This is revisionist history. Sharon, who wanted to end the occupation and dropped Likud in order to start that process, handed Gaza over to the PA/PLO/Fatah, the same people who Israel and the world expect/expected to be able to rule the WB and a Palestinian state.

They proved to be incapable of preventing Hamas from taking over in Gaza, and absolutely destroyed any faith many pro-state Israelis had in their ability to maintain control of the WB in the event of a unilateral pullout like occurred from Gaza.

Likud is garbage, but they didn't allow or encourage Hamas to come to power. They didn't even come to power until Hamas had already won elections and seized Gaza from Fatah.

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