Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Zorral]

Maybe the news of a Pause and Hostage Return isn't true?

https://balloon-juice.com/2023/11/19/the-wapo-reporting-is-wrong-there-is-not-any-form-of-deal-between-israel-hamas-for-a-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-hostages/

Has anyone else seen more reliable information?

 

[Zorral]

Foreward
November 17 2023
What Israel should actually be doing inside Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital
By helping to treat the wounded, the IDF has an opportunity to fulfill its aspiration of being the world’s most moral army.

https://forward.com/forward-newsletters/looking-forward/570254/what-israel-should-actually-be-doing-inside-gazas-al-shifa-hospital/?

In the content is the reporter's description of her 2012 visit to the al-Shifa Hospital:

Quote

 

.... Yes, the rumors of Hamas storing weapons and operating command centers underneath the sprawling hospital complex were rampant back then, too, though Israeli soldiers were not on the ground in Gaza during the 2012 war to try to prove it.

Yes, we saw Hamas militants with their trademark green scarves and headbands and even some commanders hovering in the hospital, lending credence to Israel’s accusation that the group exploited its patients and employees as human shields, a war crime.

And yes, the doctors and nurses I met at Shifa were dedicated public servants heroically trying to do their jobs in dire circumstances.

Did they resent or even despise Israel, for its relentless attacks and ongoing restrictions on travel and trade into Gaza? Yes. Did they want to wipe it off the map? Perhaps. Did they yearn to murder Jews like me? No.

Nor did they, or their patients, revere Hamas.

“We are not Hamas, and we are not with the others,” said a 34-year-old woman camped on Shifa’s lawn with her 6-month-old in a car seat. “We just want to live in our homes.” ....

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Maybe the news of a Pause and Hostage Return isn't true?

https://balloon-juice.com/2023/11/19/the-wapo-reporting-is-wrong-there-is-not-any-form-of-deal-between-israel-hamas-for-a-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-hostages/

Has anyone else seen more reliable information?

Not me. I did watch 2 of Beau's vids though, one last night and one this morning. I posted last night's one in the previous thread. In it he talked about reporting on this possible deal among other things. But this morning it was more like, "maybe the reporting was wrong, it does happen sometimes in this type of situation" (paraphrasing).

He also gave other reasons for thing having gone sort of quieter today, one being just that details are being ironed out and no one wants to talk about it too soon. 

[Bael's Bastard]

The "moderate" Holocaust denying, pay for slay Palestinian party is at it again:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-authority-claims-israel-fabricated-evidence-of-october-7-to-justify-its-attack-on-gaza/

[Zorral]

Yes indeed, just like Sandy Hook was paid actors and the January 6th insurrection was disguised FBI.

[kissdbyfire]

@Zorral, this article supports the notion that they're indeed ironing out the minor (?) details of a deal. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/19/israel-hamas-hostage-deal-mediation-qatar-prime-minister

[Ran]

Thread has more images and videos. 

ETA: Additional reporter says that the IDF identified the hostage surrounded by men and the wounded hostage on a stretcher as being of Thai and Nepalese nationality.

There's more coming out from the IDF, including details on where they found the bodies of two hostages near Al-Shifa, with the IDF admitting an air strike injured Noa Marciano but they allege that she was taken to the hospital and then murdered by Hamas there. Israeli reporter Emmanuel Fabian has more.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Ran

[TrueMetis]

Weird, I remember another video with the IDF inside the hospital showing off disabled cameras as proof of Hamas being there, guess they missed some.

In any event, you are actually allowed to go to or bring people to a hospital to get medical treatment, this isn't evidence that Hamas controls the hospital nor does it show a crime. In fact Hamas line the entire time has been they did exactly this.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Weird, I remember another video with the IDF inside the hospital showing off disabled cameras as proof of Hamas being there, guess they missed some.

Assumption is that they taped over or disabled cameras when the IDF closed in, to prevent recording any other footage. This was from the day of October 7th, however, long before what the IDF was going to respond with was known.

6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

In any event, you are actually allowed to go to or bring people to a hospital to get medical treatment

Dude on his feet seemed uninjured, was not handed over to medical staff for treatment, and was lovingly held on to by multiple armed men who covered his face.

They also came in stolen IDF and Israeli vehicles to a hospital that was not, in fact, the closest hospital to any of the sites where they infiltrated into Israel, which is rather interesting in itself. Why bypass the two or three hospitals that were closer? Hmm.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Ran

[Bael's Bastard]

Which part of murdering over a thousand people in Israel and kidnapping hundreds more back to Gaza isn't a crime? For fucks sake

[TrueMetis]

Article linked further down the thread even says the hostages where removed from the hospital afterwards.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/surveillance-footage-shows-hamas-bringing-hostages-into-shifa-hospital-on-oct-7/

Quote

In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.

 

21 minutes ago, Ran said:

Dude on his feet seemed uninjured, was not handed over to medical staff, and was lovingly held on to by multiple armed men who covered his face.

They also came in stolen IDF and Israeli vehicles to a hospital that was not, in fact, the closest hospital to any of the sites where they infiltrated into Israel, which is rather interesting in itself. 

So? I legitimately don't know why this matters. They kept guard on one guy and didn't go to the optimal hospital for some reason, that definitely proves... not a damn thing.

Like I hate to tell you guys this, but they're not really acting all that different from most armed forces in this instance.

ETA: And I would love to see a bit more of Camera 5 than the 25 seconds we got, because in 40 seconds between the end of that video and the screenshot that says 10:56:46 he's gone and doesn't show up again until 11:00:36. In fact with what looks like the shirt he was being covered with on the ground near the door the definitely injured guy was sent into it looks like he may have been as well.

Basically give me the full video, this screenshot shit is inherently deceptive.

Edited November 19, 2023 by TrueMetis

[Ran]

Thought this was interesting, from France 24, a British doctor who was at Shifa 2 or 3 years ago (can't quite make out the date):

 

[Craving Peaches]

A tunnel video was released, but it seems apparent that it was created by splicing two separate videos together. 

https://youtu.be/iY5vNCklg18?si=4E_NtiC8PhgPkpn0

At around the 54 second mark, it cuts to another video, which could be anywhere for all we know.

And of course, still far off the supposed Hamas HQ that was supposed to be beneath the hospital.

[Ran]

That video uses footage from two devices, a drone and then handheld footage at the 54 mark. Probably once the drone was at the base of the staircase, they couldn't go much further due to loss of signal.

But here is the complete and uncut footage from the second device, showing the IDF carrying it down into the tunnel and all the way to the alleged blast door:

 

 

[Mudguard]

Neither the two hostage videos nor the tunnel video proves that an extensive HQ is under the hospital buildings.

However, now that the IDF appears to have hospital footage from Oct. 7th, they should release all the footage from that day to prove their claim that hundreds of Hamas terrorists fled back to Al-Shifa on Oct. 7th.  Why not release the footage from the entire day?  I don't see any security risk to the IDF from doing so.  If the video shows hundreds of terrorists flooding back into Al-Shifa, that would be strong evidence that a large command center, maybe even an HQ, is present at Al-Shifa.  Maybe we'll get more in the next day or two, but it shouldn't take long to just share the video.

I'm still open to the possibility, but it's seems less likely with each passing day that the IDF fails to provide any substantial evidence to support their claim.

[Mudguard]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Assumption is that they taped over or disabled cameras when the IDF closed in, to prevent recording any other footage. This was from the day of October 7th, however, long before what the IDF was going to respond with was known.

Dude on his feet seemed uninjured, was not handed over to medical staff for treatment, and was lovingly held on to by multiple armed men who covered his face.

They also came in stolen IDF and Israeli vehicles to a hospital that was not, in fact, the closest hospital to any of the sites where they infiltrated into Israel, which is rather interesting in itself. Why bypass the two or three hospitals that were closer? Hmm.

How can you tell he is uninjured?  

It looks like there is a significant amount blood on his shirt.  So far, it just looks like they are bringing in injured hostages for treatment.

[TrueMetis]

The times of Israel article I linked did call them "two wounded hostages" so it's definitely at best not clear the status of the second hostage at that time.

Also as long as we're speculating about stuff, if there's such an extensive network of tunnels, with apparently entrances in other places according to the IDF's videos, why are they taking the hostages through the main entrance instead of into one of those tunnels and then bringing a doctor into them to treat the hostages given that the IDF made the initial underground infrastructure as operating rooms and such?

[GrimTuesday]

Gosh, I'm sure this is just some random, loud mouth back bencher who has no real governmental power and totally doesn't represent the views of the government. We are watching the worst human rights abuse of the 21st century, and the world is standing idly by at best, or in the case of the global hegemon America, actively supporting it.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

Gosh, I'm sure this is just some random, loud mouth back bencher who has no real governmental power and totally doesn't represent the views of the government. We are watching the worst human rights abuse of the 21st century, and the world is standing idly by at best, or in the case of the global hegemon America, actively supporting it.

We all need to reject this plan. It is unethical. Palestinians do not want to be forced off their land. No one should aid the permanent displacement of the Palestinians.

Also, how many Israeli officials have made statements that sound like support for ethnic cleansing now? The President, the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister, the Minister for Agriculture, the Finance Minister, now the Intelligence Minister, another Minister in the Emergency Cabinet. Plus multiple members of the Knesset. Remember when we were all told that there was nothing to worry about because this view was just held by a few fringe extremists? Which ministry came up with the leaked ethnic cleansing plan again? The Intelligence Ministry. Who's saying this now? The Intelligence Minister.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

Looks like the Indonesian Hospital is being attacked now. Still no proof of the Hamas HQ anywhere, or that Hamas was in the UN and Red Cross approved ambulance convoy that was bombed.