Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Daeron the Daring]

57 minutes ago, Relic said:

56 journalists have been killed.

Israel should declare war on the profession of journalism. They do more harm to the state than Hamas.

[Craving Peaches]

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

So much for the sacred protections given to hospitals in Gaza by Hamas.

Who here was saying Hamas cared about hospitals though? As far as I am aware, nobody said or implied such a thing. Everyone has been very clear that Hamas is a terrorist group.

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

is the fact that coping denialists try to wave away every jot of evidence

The decisive evidence that there is a Hamas HQ there should be the reveal of the actual physical structure of the Hamas HQ. Because that is what Israel claimed, that beneath the hospital there was a Hamas HQ, and that was their justification for bombing the hospital, wasn't it? Also, I see a lot of 'coping denialists' trying to wave away all the evidence of Israeli war crimes as well...

Edited November 21, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Heh. Causing the Hamas/Fatah civil war a 'very tense situation' is right up there with calling the Irish rebellion the 'troubles'. 

True, but technically, active hostilities had yet to break out at the time the documentary was made. It looks like the first clashes started late in the year, and then really exploded in 2007.

[Rippounet]

I sat on this one for a few days because, while it confirms what I (and numerous others, including here on this thread) had already concluded, it's unlikely to convince anyone who hasn't already reached such conclusions by themselves.

So here goes, from an independent French media outlet (widely considered reliable, though very much on the left), the story of the Dahiya doctrine, or institutionlized war crimes by the Israeli military:

Quote

 

Drawing its name from Dahiya, a Shiite neighborhood in the southern suburbs of Beirut and a stronghold of Hezbollah, razed by the Israeli air force in 2006, this doctrine was conceived by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot. This officer of Moroccan origin headed the operations department of the general staff after commanding the Golani Brigade.

A specialist in "asymmetric warfare in urban environments," Eizenkot advocated prioritizing destructive power over the precision of strikes. "What happened in Dahiya," he explained in 2008, "will happen to all localities that serve as bases for firing against Israel. We will use disproportionate force against these areas and cause significant damage and destruction. This is not a recommendation, it's a plan, and it has already been approved."

"Faced with the outbreak of hostilities, the army must act immediately, decisively, with disproportionate force compared to the enemy's actions and the threat it poses," specified one of Eizenkot's subordinates, Colonel Gabriel Siboni, explaining the doctrine on behalf of the Israeli National Institute for Security Studies (INSS). "Such a response," he added, "aims to inflict considerable damage and losses, to bring punishment to a level that will require a long and expensive reconstruction process."

According to Fouad Gehad Marei, a researcher at Lund University (Sweden), Erfurt University (Germany), and the University of Birmingham (United Kingdom), who analyzed the conflicts in Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, "the Dahiya doctrine guided the Israeli army's operations in Gaza in 2008, 2012, and 2014. During each of these wars, human rights organizations and international community organizations criticized Israel for its disproportionate use of force and the extent of the damage inflicted. It is clear that the explicit intention to inflict immense destruction and not distinguish between military and civilian targets constitutes a violation of international laws and conventions."

According to Yossi Mekelberg, the Dahiya doctrine was also used in 2014 during the Gaza conflict. It had been employed earlier in the "Operation Cast Lead" in December 2008 and January 2009, as established by a United Nations report written by four experts and published in September 2009. This report did not lead to any prosecution of Israeli officials for the deaths of 1,400 Palestinians, including 758 civilians, and the destruction of industrial infrastructure, food production businesses, or water supply facilities.

[...]

The objective of this strategy – its designers and users do not hide it – is, in fact, to remind Palestinians "who is the strongest so that they understand it is useless to resist." Based on the idea that war unfolds in phases, this doctrine is not intended to be decisive in determining the outcome of the conflict but only to delay and attempt to deter the inevitable onset of the next phase. As recently indicated by the spokesperson of the Israeli army, "the emphasis in this operation has been on the extent of the damage, not on the precision of the strikes."

When asked about the use of the Dahiya doctrine against Hamas, Israeli analyst Yoni Ben Menachem responded, "Yes, absolutely," specifying that it is a form of psychological warfare aimed at keeping civilians away from targets associated with Hamas. According to Daniel Byman, a strategic advisor to the U.S. Department of State, "the general concept of the doctrine, that Israel must inflict considerable damage and destruction to restore its deterrent capability, clearly applies."

Yossi Mekelberg, a Middle East specialist at Chatham House, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, stated that "the doctrine appears to be in effect in Gaza." Israeli lawyer Michael Sfard, specializing in laws of war and human rights, observes that "the very high number of deaths in Gaza alone does not prove that Israel violated the laws of war, but it raises suspicion and places the responsibility on the military to explain and justify its actions."

https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/191123/guerre-israel-hamas-la-devastatrice-doctrine-dahiya

 

Of course, it was obvious that such a doctrine was in place almost from the start - you'd have to be blind not to see it. But I have to admit that even I didn't quite expect for the thing to be old and institutionalized enough to have a name. In hindsight, I almost wonder if this isn't something I deliberately forgot to keep some of my own illusions.

[Ran]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Everyone has been very clear that Hamas is a terrorist group.

A very dubious claim that "everyone" has been clear about it, but sure, most have been clear... while also not seeming to doubt, very much, claims made by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated organizations... for some reason.

I don't know which is worse, accepting that Hamas may be considered freedom fighters and that useful idiots trust them thereby, or admitting they are terrorists and still trusting them regardless.

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Also, I see a lot of 'coping denialists' trying to wave away all the evidence of Israeli war crimes as well...

Perhaps, but for my part I'll just note that the evidence presented is obviously extremely incomplete, and without the full assessment of all the details behind things like intelligence and strike decisions, one can't really make the assessment in most cases. There is no simple equation.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Perhaps, but for my part I'll just note that the evidence presented is obviously extremely incomplete, and without the full assessment of all the details behind things like intelligence and strike decisions, one can't really make the assessment in most cases. There is no simple equation.

My current working behavior is that both the IDF and Hamas have shown themselves repeatedly to lie and cover up facts that would implicate them. So I can't really take either of their claims at face value.

Instead, I look at the actual effects which have been pretty horrific. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Of course, it was obvious that such a doctrine was in place almost from the start

I mentioned it earlier as a possible explanation as to why so many residential blocks were targeted, because it didn't seem possible to me that Hamas could be using all of them to store weapons or house fighters, but was told there was 'no evidence' for it being used...?

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Instead, I look at the actual effects which have been pretty horrific. 

Admitted, but that's not the measure of a war crime, so having someone tell me there's loads of evidence of war crimes just tells me they don't actually understand what these words mean. They are not helped by many experts being quick to shout war crimes while acknowledging that they don't have evidence. I'll note even Rippounet's article which alleges some 16-year-old alleged doctrine is at play without really having any evidence beyond supposition, has quoted experts saying just that: "the very high number of deaths in Gaza alone does not prove that Israel violated the laws of war, but it raises suspicion and places the responsibility on the military to explain and justify its actions."

Fine for people to be suspicious.

As to the residential blocks, I've already pointed out how Israel's military manual on the laws of armed combat treat civilian infrastructure that is dual-use differently than most other militaries (except Denmark, for some reason; I bring that up because the Danes are our neighbors, but also they are members of NATO, so it's interesting that that distinction is shared with Israel). It's also an after-effect of the paradox of precision, and Israel's efforts to warn people, giving the enemy a chance to move from a site. This means when you have new intelligence that some survived or moved caches elsewhere, you repeat the process.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Ran

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

while also not seeming to doubt, very much, claims made by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated organizations... for some reason.

Because the WHO said the figures were reliable in the past? You posted a clip of al-Shifa being used by Hamas in the past as some sort of proof that they would be using it now, no? So people will obviously infer from what the WHO said that the current figures are reliable. Furthermore, they released a list of seven thousand dead people's names, sex, age and ID number, so unless they made all of that up...

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You posted a clip of al-Shifa being used by Hamas in the past as some sort of proof that they would be using it now, no?

Why would it not be the case now? What changed between the BRitish  doctor saying in 2020-2021 he was told to stay away from certain areas because he could be shot or killed, and that he witnessed "non-medical" types going in and out of them, and this war?

You've no answer. It's just a cope. That's okay. 

I could also post video of interrogated terrorists stating that Shifa is a base and there are Hamas militants hiding in there as doctors and nurses, but obviously they were brutally tortured and/or given privileges for repeating IDF lies. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Ran

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why would it not be the case now? What changed between the BRitish  doctor saying in 2020-2021 he was told to stay away from certain areas because he could be shot or killed, and that he witnessed "non-medical" types going in and out of them, and this war?

You've no answer. It's jut a cope. That's okay.

You've missed the point of my post. I never said it wasn't the case now, but that people will infer from them using it in the past (further evidence) that they are using it now, just as people will infer from past statements about reliability of death figures that the death figures now are still reliable.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[AncalagonTheBlack]

 

[Ran]

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

just as people will infer from past statements about reliability of death figures that the death figures now are still reliable.

And it's reasonable to share that datapoint while admitting it is not, in fact, necessarily the case that they are reliable during a war that has massively different conditions than the past. 

Different conditions that only increase the likelihood that Shifa was actively used as a base at this time, rather than decrease them, I'll add. 

So: Hamas has lied about Shifa, doctors and NGOs like MSF have lied about Shifa's connection to Hamas and hostages for reasons selfish and perhaps even noble (but still lies). If you are willing to admit those, then yes, I'll agree that Shifa should not get blown up because of it, just because it has been used as a base and has had involvement with Hamas even during this conflict. (Actually, I'll admit it regardless, what do I care what you admit or not? It's not germane.)

The tunnels and underground infrastructure Israel has made in the past, and the extensions of it made by Hamas, should probably be destroyed, however, whether filled with concrete or collapsed where possible, I don't know. All tunnel complexes under protected buildings need to be destroyed.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Ran

[Daeron the Daring]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Perhaps, but for my part I'll just note that the evidence presented is obviously extremely incomplete, and without the full assessment of all the details behind things like intelligence and strike decisions, one can't really make the assessment in most cases. There is no simple equation.

You seem to take no issue to call people coping denialists while also saying the evidence to arbitrate (anything/most things) is extremely incomplete.

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

A very dubious claim that "everyone" has been clear about it, but sure, most have been clear... while also not seeming to doubt, very much, claims made by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated organizations... for some reason.

I don't know. To me it seems like most people that accept certain parts of Hamas' reports do so because it's deemed reliable by 3rd party observers, not because they hold dear the objectives of Hamas.

And the stances these people (mostly) take regarding the war crimes of Israel fall in line to that of the UN or western democratic countries. You know, ones that hadn't really been associated with warmongering in contemporary history.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

we know to be a lie

How do we KNOW this for certain?  

[Ran]

Just now, Zorral said:

How do we KNOW this for certain?  

Doctors who insist Hamas and hostages have not been at the premises from October 7th are obviously lying since we have the surveillance footage showing the hostages being taken into the hospital, one frog-marched by group of guys including a guy with a cleaver and another with a machine gun, the other on a gurney.

Like, it's as clear and obvious as it can be.

 

[Relic]

36 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

the story of the Dahiya doctrine, or institutionlized war crimes by the Israeli military:

It's ok, tho, because as long as this current Israeli government, and its supporters, they don't admit to dishing out collective punishment, its not really happening. 

[Bael's Bastard]

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Furthermore, they released a list of seven thousand dead people's names, sex, age and ID number, so unless they made all of that up...

 They would *never*

[Zorral]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Doctors who insist Hamas and hostages have not been at the premises from October 7th are obviously lying since we have the surveillance footage showing the hostages being taken into the hospital, one frog-marched by group of guys including a guy with a cleaver and another with a machine gun, the other on a gurney.

Like, it's as clear and obvious as it can be.

 

MSM still hasn't verified any of that, you know.

[Relic]

Can someone explain to me what will happened to the hundreds of thousands displaced Palestinians who have fled to South Gaza when Israeli ground forces push towards Khan Younis? I'm unclear what the plan here is.