Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[kissdbyfire]

44 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

According to the Guardian, sources close to the negotiations said that almost this exact same deal was on the table since the early days of this particular conflict. Apparently it was also Netanyahu who was one of the main impediments to a resolution, making harsher and harsher demands with each proposal, which is less likely to get a hostage free and more likely to get a liveleaks style video of a hostage being executed to try and get him to stop fucking around.

Yup, heard the exact same thing on Chris Hayes last night.

[Relic]

45 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

According to the Guardian, 

Haven't you heard, the Guardian is Western Al Jazeera.

It sucks to have to negotiate with hostage takers, full stop. But if you state your goal is the recovery of said hostages... well, you are forced too. It's not like you can't continue to bomb the shit out of Gaza after you get some of them back.

[Ran]

As always, queries about moderation should be directed to mods in private. I find it particularly absurd to have to repeat this to people who I know have directly been told this before, but memories are, I guess, short.
 

Also, mods don't read every post in every thread, so citing some post we're unfamiliar with hardly helps us look at it. 

[Ran]

2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

there is zero evidence

Can't prove a negative. 

 

2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

This hostage agreement cannot be allowed to be seen as a victory for the Israeli government

Who exactly is not supposed to "allow" it? Are we sending mind-controlling rays out to make sure people think rightly?

From what I've read, the security and military heads endorsed the deal and convinced the far right holdouts to come on board, so I'm thinking they're comfortable with its impact on the ongoing goal of destroying Hamas's capabilities and control of Gaza, while also advancing the goal of recovering hostages.

[Tywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

It sucks to have to negotiate with hostage takers, full stop. But if you state your goal is the recovery of said hostages... well, you are forced too. It's not like you can't continue to bomb the shit out of Gaza after you get some of them back.

However, you cannot just immediately give in to their demands. Just a few weeks ago the only public statement from Hamas was a one sided ceasefire in exchange for discussing the possibility of releasing a few hostages.

Also, Hamas appears to have lied about hostage exchanges, shockingly. They said they'd trade some women and children in exchange for women and children and then handed over a list with a ton of men they wanted back, some who are known terrorists.  

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Also, Hamas appears to have lied about hostage exchanges, shockingly. 

Source?

[Tywin et al.]

43 minutes ago, Relic said:

Source?

NBC reported it a bit ago and that's where some of the hang ups came. 

[Zorral]

10 hours ago, AncalagonTheBlack said:

Former State Dept. Official Recorded Harassing Halal Food Cart Vendor

On several occasions, Stuart Seldowitz berated a man on the Upper East Side with Islamophobic comments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/nyregion/seldowitz-vendor-islamophobia-nyc.html

If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough.”

The vendor, who has not been identified, is heard on the videos asking Mr. Seldowitz to “please go” and saying that he would call the police.

 

Every one of these isolated incidents can be countered/both sided with one in which a Palestinian/Arab/Lebanese/etc. here has been attacked / harassed by someone Jewish.  Or even just because the creep -- a woman -- thought the man and his toddler were Palestinian, in the playground -- when he's a Sikh, from India.  Ya that happened this week, among many events of this nature -- on both sides.  So there is no point in putting up these events on this thread.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Zorral

[Zorral]

Palestinian contributor to the New Yorker Magazine, taken prisoner, has been released back into Gaza, where it must feel like being a fish in a barrel being shot at.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/israeli-forces-reportedly-detain-a-new-yorker-contributor.

This issue includes this --

The Trauma of Gaza’s Doctors
The head of mission for Doctors Without Borders in Palestine on the horrors of practicing medicine under siege.
By Isaac Chotiner

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-trauma-of-gazas-doctors

Working non-stop, it appears there isn't a lot of spare time to create lists of fake Palestinians who have been maimed, injured and killed.

[Ran]

Apparently there's a bunch of videos in Hebrew showing more of the tunnel complex under the hospital, and reporters from Israeli news channels are going to be shown around. Notably, one image from, I think, N12 shows stuff that the IDF says they've recovered from the tunnels that suggest hostages and terrorists were in the tunnels at some point -- particularly a bag with the logo for the celebration of Kibbutz Be'eri's 60th anniversary. 

 

Actually, just saw some are coming out now:

 

[AncalagonTheBlack]

 

[Mudguard]

26 minutes ago, Ran said:

Apparently there's a bunch of videos in Hebrew showing more of the tunnel complex under the hospital, and reporters from Israeli news channels are going to be shown around. Notably, one image from, I think, N12 shows stuff that the IDF says they've recovered from the tunnels that suggest hostages and terrorists were in the tunnels at some point -- particularly a bag with the logo for the celebration of Kibbutz Be'eri's 60th anniversary. 

 

Actually, just saw some are coming out now:

 

Tunnels are everywhere in Gaza.  This still isn't the HQ.

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Tunnels are everywhere in Gaza.  This still isn't the HQ.

What exactly do you think a "HQ" or command-and-control center looks like for a terrorist group, I wonder? I know you may have visions of 24 in your head, or the Marvel movies, but truth be told a few rooms rather than just tunnels going from A to B is enough to say that this structure had more use than just lurking about.

The fact that there are toilets -- which we haven't seen before in other tunnels the IDF has exposed so far -- tells me this was a structure that was intended for long-term use rather than  merely transient use, for one thing.

[Tywin et al.]

More to the point, Hamas uses guerilla tactics. Part of that includes the ability to move quickly. Who knows if this location was their central HQ yet, but that there's nothing in a space clearly meant for long term activity suggests they picked up their shit and got out. 

[Mudguard]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

What exactly do you think a "HQ" or command-and-control center looks like for a terrorist group, I wonder? I know you may have visions of 24 in your head, or the Marvel movies, but truth be told a few rooms rather than just tunnels going from A to B is enough to say that this structure had more use than just lurking about.

The fact that there are toilets -- which we haven't seen before in other tunnels the IDF has exposed so far -- tells me this was a structure that was intended for long-term use rather than  merely transient use, for one thing.

The IDF showed us how it was supposed to look with their animation.  Multi-level structure with many rooms, and obviously equipment needed to run the HQ.  Empty rooms don't prove anything.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

More to the point, Hamas uses guerilla tactics. Part of that includes the ability to move quickly. Who knows if this location was their central HQ yet, but that there's nothing in a space clearly meant for long term activity suggests they picked up their shit and got out. 

Yes. There are communication points they pointed out where the wires have been cut, so they were originally wired with phones or perhaps even networking, but they've stripped things out. They also pointed out that Hamas made efforts to seal up parts of the tunnel to try and prevent the IDF getting into them, which has slowed the IDF down.

Hamas had over a month between knowing that the IDF was gunning for Al-Shifa and the IDF getting there. They would have moved as much equipment and other stuff out of there as possible.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Ran

[Mudguard]

Also, you really think that rooms are rare in their 300 miles of tunnels?  Where do you think they store all their food, water, weapons, fuel?  Where do you think the terrorists sleep?  There are numerous rooms scattered all throughout the tunnel system.

[Tywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Also, you really think that rooms are rare in their 300 miles of tunnels?  Where do you think they store all their food, water, weapons, fuel?  Where do you think the terrorists sleep?  There are numerous rooms scattered all throughout the tunnel system.

Sure, but the tell for me is nothing was left behind. Nothing. It looks similar to what happens when drug dealers think the police have found where they're producing the product and need to ghost the place. 

[Mudguard]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Sure, but the tell for me is nothing was left behind. Nothing. It looks similar to what happens when drug dealers think the police have found where they're producing the product and need to ghost the place. 

I actually suggested much earlier that if the HQ was at Al Shifa in the past, that Hamas would have moved it a long time ago when rumors of its location started to spread over a decade ago.  What's the point of having a secret base if its location is well known?  

Let's say they find a lot more rooms and the multi-level structure shown in the animations, but everything is gone.  You would have no idea when they actually left.  Maybe they finished moving out recently.  Maybe they moved out their HQ over 10 years ago.  And they can still use the space for other shit.  And it's also possible that the HQ was never here.

The IDF is the one with the burden of proof.  They need to find solid evidence to back up their claims.  A tunnel and some empty rooms isn't going to cut it.

[Ran]

The tiles all look pretty clean, and I would have expected, I don't know, cobwebs in corners and shit if it had been abandoned years ago.

2 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

A tunnel and some empty rooms isn't going to cut it.

For some who are insistent on doubting every piece of evidence put before them, sure, but I don't think the IDF is concerned with the perpetually opposed.