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Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier


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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Not saying they're making up every death, but creating a ton of false identities is pretty easy. Just for example, Madden (the most popular NFL game) 20 years ago could generate thousands of fake people with more details than we're seeing here to simulate a fantasy draft. 

The hoops people are jumping through to portray Hamas as reliable or even to act as though the simplest explanation is that Hamas isn't just pulling shit out of its ass is nauseating.

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3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Amazing to see the bullshit people are spewing about how there is no military solution to removing a genocidal group of Jew-haters from power over a particular place.

And yet, it's an opinion held by many. Not only here, but people who actually have expertise in this type of thing. 

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Today's fauxgressives would have 100% enabled the Nazis in general and the Holocaust in particular.

Wow. So anyone who disagrees w/ you is not only completely wrong, of course, b/c how the fuck dare they, right? But they're also 100% nazi & Holocaust enablers and supporters. 

I find your statement outrageous and incredibly offensive.

You are, yet again, throwing insults at people and trying to shame them because they have a different opinion than yours. 

You should really try to avoid ad hominem attacks, they don't benefit anyone, and offer no real support for any points you might be trying to make. 

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9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The hoops people are jumping through to portray Hamas as reliable or even to act as though the simplest explanation is that Hamas isn't just pulling shit out of its ass is nauseating.

No one has said hamas is reliable. This is a strawman argument. What people have said repeatedly is that the numbers of reported deaths is probably close to the truth because it has been shown time and again that these numbers were pretty reliable in the past, and also that ALL MSM is using them as well, for the exact same reason. 

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58 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I've mentioned before I don't think this use of military force can possibly defeat Hamas

Negotiating and working with Hamas has a zero percent chance of ending them either. Again, the sad reality is there are no good options, but one outcome that must be achieved is the end of Hamas. However, Israel is not being cautious enough in that aim and as many have said they're probably creating the next group that will try to takeover afterwards.

16 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The hoops people are jumping through to portray Hamas as reliable or even to act as though the simplest explanation is that Hamas isn't just pulling shit out of its ass is nauseating.

Every time I read someone write or post something with some form of "Hamas said" or "Hamas denies" I just groan. That doesn't mean IDF is always telling the truth, but if you're going to rely on anything a known terrorist said, heads up, you're the mark. 

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19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Every time I read someone write or post something with some form of "Hamas said" or "Hamas denies" I just groan. That doesn't mean IDF is always telling the truth, but if you're going to rely on anything a known terrorist said, heads up, you're the mark. 

It's wild to watch people, "human rights orgs," news media, etc. wake up every day and choose to rely on and regurgitate the word of an org of genocidal Jew-haters that personally massacred your friends and family a month and a half ago.

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Israel has access to the records for every Palestinian in Gaza, if these list are just made up from whole cloth, Israel should be able to expose them as made up. The fact that people are denying this is absurd. If anything, the numbers are likely an under count given the fact that half of the residential buildings in Gaza have been flattened or structurally compromised.

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The hoops people are jumping through to portray Hamas as reliable or even to act as though the simplest explanation is that Hamas isn't just pulling shit out of its ass is nauseating.

To be clear, the simplest solution is likely tens of thousands of civilians are dead. That is what tends to happen when thousands of bombs are dropped on an area the size of Minneapolis. 

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Also, a military solution by itself did not solve nazis or the Holocaust. That's sort of the big point - that simply blowing hamas up and then doing nothing different afterwards will not solve anything and will just cause more insurgency and violence in the future. 

If you want to destroy radicalization you have to give people an alternative. With Germany and Japan in ww2 years of effort and money and resources were spent doing that, more than the actual war. The Holocaust was addressed not by military victory but by an international court, trials, and hunts. And, of course, the actual giving of Israel to the survivors. 

It's very weird to read that history and get from it that military power was all that was necessary, or that people are claiming that hamas can be reasoned or bargained with. 

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Even if there was a military only solution* to ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which notably is a separate issue from beating Hamas, if there was, the way Israel is going about it definitely isn't it. Like as I've said before, and apparently need to emphasize, this strategy is unlikely to even beat Hamas, which is barely even step one. Yet based on some of the responses, not only do some people think this is an effective way of destroying a decentralized insurgency, it's literally the only thing a military can do. Which... ouch. Like I may not have much respect for the IDF but even I don't think they're that useless.

 

*Technically there is one, but I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees it's not an acceptable option.

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not saying they're making up every death, but creating a ton of false identities is pretty easy. Just for example, Madden (the most popular NFL game) 20 years ago could generate thousands of fake people with more details than we're seeing here to simulate a fantasy draft. 

So...let's follow that train of thought through. 

Gaza is the single most monitored place on earth. Palestinians have to register with Israeli authorities upon reaching their 16th birthday. They are often required to show these documents at a moment's notice. Israel has controlled that registry for over 30 years now. Gaza isn't some random area on the map or some wildly desolate place - it is an area where people require documentation, records, credit, bank accounts. And all of that data goes through Israel. 

In addition to that, Israel has massive amounts of facial recognition, DNA recognition, cell records, internet records on every single person they can see in Gaza. Israel is the absolute pioneer at this type of technology and routinely exports it. 

Do you really believe that it is easy to make up the names, locations, and family of people who are registered with the Israeli government? And more importantly, do you really believe for a second that if Israel had the evidence that the people named on those supplied lists were fake that they would not scream it at the top of their lungs? 

Sure, it's possible that these things are fabricated, or the names as presented are real people who didn't die. That's definitely something they could do. But we have at this point an absurd amount of contemporaneous evidence that thousands of deaths are there. There are well-documented mass graves, there are well documented instances of multigenerational families being wiped out. You have the US saying that thousands are dead, and not naming Hamas as a source.

You certainly should be skeptical of any of these things, but the idea that it's just randomly fabricated as if that's easy? And it wasn't checked immediately by Israel? Please. That is pretty well absurd. 

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Former State Dept. Official Recorded Harassing Halal Food Cart Vendor

On several occasions, Stuart Seldowitz berated a man on the Upper East Side with Islamophobic comments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/nyregion/seldowitz-vendor-islamophobia-nyc.html

If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough.”

The vendor, who has not been identified, is heard on the videos asking Mr. Seldowitz to “please go” and saying that he would call the police.

 

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3 hours ago, AncalagonTheBlack said:

Former State Dept. Official Recorded Harassing Halal Food Cart Vendor

On several occasions, Stuart Seldowitz berated a man on the Upper East Side with Islamophobic comments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/nyregion/seldowitz-vendor-islamophobia-nyc.html

If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough.”

The vendor, who has not been identified, is heard on the videos asking Mr. Seldowitz to “please go” and saying that he would call the police.

 

Man, painful to watch. This guy has that sort of classic politician thing going on where he is able to smile, putting on a socially acceptable face, while spewing bile. To a passerby it might looks like a friendly conversation, to the vendor it is an odious attack. Sad to see in NYC. 

Sad to see the rise of hate, in general. 

On the topic of reported civilian deaths in Gaza...One could quibble over the exact number of casualties. One could even say that the number of civilian deaths has been inflated by some percent. But it's not really about the numbers, for some people. The fact that Hamas is believed in anything it says is the issue. To a certain extent, fair enough. Hamas has shown itself to be fucking evil, and in need of getting kicked off of Planet Earth.

However, it seems to go even further with some folks. Some people are just flat out offended that anyone would show concern for Palestinian civilians in the face of the brutal attack Israel sustained. We're all anti-Semites and Nazi enablers who should just stfu and accept whatever this Israeli government wants to do. Which is a ridiculous stance to take. 

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23 minutes ago, Relic said:

We're all anti-Semites

Ive been reading the correct refernce should be antisemitism (hyphen removed) when referencing bigotry towards Jews.

Both Jews and Palestinians can be Semitic speaking so to be an anti-Semite isnt considered as specific as some may assume.

Heres some of the explanation I read-

https://cdn.britannica.com/mendel/eb-logo/MendelNewThistleLogo.png
 Because Semitic-speaking peoples do not share any traits aside from language, use of the term “Semite” to refer to the broad range of Semitic-speaking peoples has fallen out of favour. For this reason, some critics even encourage the removal of the hyphen in the term anti-Semitism to help dispel any pseudoscientific notions of a "Semitic race." They advocate instead for the use of antisemitism to describe the hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.
 
^^^
Maybe trivial seeming but I thought it was interesting.
 
 
Edited by DireWolfSpirit
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Anywho continuing with the positive Ive heard reporting that Netanyahu has said for each additional 10 hostages released the ceasefire fire will be extended a day. So hopefully some snowballing where the cessation and diplomacy can build on each other.

Dare I hope more and more hostages can be released.

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It is good to hear about the hostage agreement, I hope that this can go some way towards easing tensions and lead to a more lasting peace. That said, I think it should be noted that there is zero evidence that the bombing of Gaza did anything to assist in the negotiations for hostages and in all likelihood killed a number of hostages who would not have otherwise died. This hostage agreement cannot be allowed to be seen as a victory for the Israeli government because they could have done this a month ago and it appears only after intense and very public pressure they buckled. Netanyahu and his hard line freak allies would have been fine with sending the hostages back to their families in match boxes after they were torn apart by Israeli bombs so long as it meant they could keep bombing Gaza and would have done just that if it weren't for public sentiment shifting against them.

According to the Guardian, sources close to the negotiations said that almost this exact same deal was on the table since the early days of this particular conflict. Apparently it was also Netanyahu who was one of the main impediments to a resolution, making harsher and harsher demands with each proposal, which is less likely to get a hostage free and more likely to get a liveleaks style video of a hostage being executed to try and get him to stop fucking around.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say

Edited by GrimTuesday
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