Do you agree that Cersei Lannister is so tragic that her Freudian Excuse alone would make her Inconsistently Heinous?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way.

You already know that Cersei Lannister is Inconsistently Heinous which is the same category under which Tyrion Lannister is listed. However, not only that, but her tragedy is considered to be such a fundamental part of the character that she is considered to be major tragic which means that even if her Freudian Excuse was her only prevention, she still wouldn't qualify as Near Pure Evil because Near Pure Evil characters can only be minor tragic.

Minor tragic means that the villain does have some tragedy, bujt it's not given that much sympathy and it is made clear that in spite of their tragedy, the villain could still move but choose not to. It still serves as a prevention from Pure Evil, but it is not enough to make the character sympathetic enough or mitigate their heinousness enough to be Inconsistently Heinous.

This is the reason why characters like Petyr Baelish, Tywin Lannister and Aerys Targaryen are listed as Near Pure Evil and are all considered to be minor tragic. There is even an entire category on the Near Pure Evil wiki called Minor Tragic which is about Near Pure Evil characters who have some sort of tragic backstory, but it doesn't make them sympathetic enough or mitigate their heinousness enough to make them inconsistently Heinous and they are still umambiguously irredeemable and evil which is why they are still Near Pure Evil.

Pure Evil characters can never have valid tragedies even if they seemingly might have one at first glance, which is why characters like Joffrey, Ramsay and Gregor are considered to be Fake Tragic and are listed on the Pure Evil wiki.

Cersei, on the other hand, unlike the examples I mentioned, is not considered to be Minor Tragic because she is portrayed as more of a victim of her circumstances than the examples I mentioned which means that her Freudian Excuse alone would be enough to prevent her from qualifying as Near Pure Evil even if she didn't have any other preventions:

Quote

• Cersei is too tragic to be Near Pure Evil:
  • She lost her mother at the age of 7 which has left her traumatized.
  • At the age of 10, Cersei received a prophecy from Maggy that all of her kids would die, that a younger and more baeutiful queen would take everything she holds dear and then Cersei herself would be killed by her younger brother. This made Cersei very paranoid about her life and the lives of her children, made her even more abusive towards Tyrion because she believes that he is the younger brother from the prophecy and caused her to become distrustful towards most other people. A lot of the crimes she commits are an attempt to prevent this prophecy from happening and saving her children and herself.
  • Her father Tywin was neglectful most of the time, barely displayed any parental love aside from a few occasions and he was a brutal ruler who taught his kids that they should be merciless, that they shouldn't care about morality only about the end results and that they should look down on small folk or anyone who isn't a Lannister. He is also strict with his expectations of her and doesn't allow her to deviate in any way from what he envisions her to be but at the same time he never disciplines her on how she should treat other people properly, never corrects her behaviour and even makes her believe that her younger brother Tyrion "killed" her mother due to simply being born which causes her to hate him. Even after she becomes a Queen, he still acts in a controlling way towards her and orders her around despite the fact she outranks him, doesn't seem to care a lot about how her husband treats her or if she is happy with her life, doesn't take her opinions into consideration most of the time and tries to force her into a second marriage despite Cersei's immense displeasure, which would also deprive her of her position as regent to King Joffrey and force her into another position where she is a powerless housewife to someone else, just because Tywin wants to increase his own power with him possibly even wanting to take the regency for himself away from Cersei. Her upbringing as Tywin's daughter causes her to have a very warped view of the world and because she feels unappreciated by her father and suffers from insecurities, she tries to emulate him in any way she can to win his approval.
  • She was married to Robert Baratheon, who cheated on her and abused her by sometimes even raping her which also has an affect on her because she feels powerless during the rapes and she doesn't want this to happen again. The affect the rapes have on her is displayed when she tries to force herself on another woman because she wants to feel powerful and learn what Robert has felt when he had done that to her but stops at the last moment because she realizes she doesn't feel enjoyment and just feels empty.
  • In the world of Westeros if it's discovered that she had cheated on her husband with Jaime, she and all of her kids would be executed while her husband also cheats on her all the time with dozens of different women which displays the double standards of Westerosi laws. The reason why she kills Robert and Ned is because she wants to protect her life and the life of her kids from execution.
  • In general, she has suffered from systematic sexism throughout her whole life starting from childhood because she was born in a highly sexist society where women are inferior to men and she and Jaime were treated differently because of their gender. Jaime was groomed to become the heir to Casterly Rock and was taught how to rule and fight while she was groomed to be married off and be a housewife despite being older than her brother. When she was married to her husband, she also suffered from the sexism of her society because her husband was allowed to cheat on her while if she was caught cheating, she and her entire family would be executed. She was also raped because there was no definition of marital rape in Westeros.

These are the reasons which make her too much of a victim of her circumstances to be labeled as minor tragic which means that her Freudian Excuse alone prevents her from being Near Pure Evil even if we disregard all of her other redeeming and sympathetic qualities which make her even more inconsistent and further prevent her from qualifying.

So, how do you feel about this and do you agree or disagree?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

No.

I would agree though that Cersei is a long way from home and she can't sleep at night.

[SaffronLady]

For those of you who don't know, murdering your husband and trying to murder all his children too is exusable if you suffer from systemic sexism. 

[Alester Florent]

I had resolved not to reply to these any further, but it's not the new year yet, so I shall allow myself this one. Fortunately it is an easy one.

No.

[kissdbyfire]

No. But I'm sure a million people replying "no" won't be able to change your opinion. And that's fine, it's absolutely okay for you to think Cersei is less awful than others think she is. What I don’t understand is why you feel the need to try to repeatedly convince others that she is not as bad as they think. 

[boltons are sick]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

For those of you who don't know, murdering your husband and trying to murder all his children too is exusable if you suffer from systemic sexism. 

Murdering your husband is absolutely fine if he rapes you repeatedly for years.

[Alester Florent]

11 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Murdering your husband is absolutely fine if he rapes you repeatedly for years.

Revenge is not a valid motive for murder.

I like how you didn't engage with the "all his children" part, too. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Alester Florent

[boltons are sick]

29 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Revenge is not a valid motive for murder.

If someone repeatedly rapes someone else, the rape victim is morally justified to kill her abuser. I don't care what the law has to say about this.

And she didn't kill him just because of the rapes but also because she was protecting herself and her family from him. He absolutely would have murdered her and her kids if he found out she cheated on him (even though he also cheated on her which makes the whole situation hypocritical and sexist), so she was acting in self-defense to protect her family.

Edited December 25, 2023 by boltons are sick

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Murdering your husband is absolutely fine if he rapes you repeatedly for years.

And trying to murder all his children too, successfully murdering some of them?

I dunno, maybe Barra could also threaten Cersei's family?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

For those of you who don't know, murdering your husband and trying to murder all his children too is exusable if you suffer from systemic sexism. 

Actually honestly…if a woman who is trapped in a marrige murders an abusive husband…I honestly think it us okay. I think the mistake here is to compare Cersei to those women. Although I agree she is abused at home, her decision to murder Robert wasn’t really about the abuse. 

The second part (the children) is of course unexcusable. But I can actually imagine someone making a compelling argument for Cersei to murder Robert. He raped her every once in ahwile when he felt like it. He also clearly will go to physical violence given “reason”. It is not a healthy relationship. HOWEVER, I think that argument quickly falls apart when actially looking st the text and Cersei’s motivations. She murderered Robert to hide her crime not to protect herself from abuse. 

[boltons are sick]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Actually honestly…if a woman who is trapped in a marrige murders an abusive husband…I honestly think it us okay. I think the mistake here is to compare Cersei to those women. Although I agree she is abused at home, her decision to murder Robert wasn’t really about the abuse. 

The second part (the children) is of course unexcusable. But I can actually imagine someone making a compelling argument for Cersei to murder Robert. He raped her every once in ahwile when he felt like it. He also clearly will go to physical violence given “reason”. It is not a healthy relationship. HOWEVER, I think that argument quickly falls apart when actially looking st the text and Cersei’s motivations. She murderered Robert to hide her crime not to protect herself from abuse. 

What crime? The "crime" of cheating on her abusive husband (who is also cheating on her) which apparently should be punishable by death? Not to mention she only started cheating to find some comfort in her life which her marriage didn't provide.

No, I don't care if she lied about the parentage of her children. If she didn't do it, she and her kids would still be executed which means she had no choice but to do it and she was forced to do it by the sexist laws of her society.

Edited December 25, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Not at all, she is one of the series' greatest pieces of work and she has no excuse for her twisted petty and evil actions.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

If someone repeatedly rapes someone else, the rape victim is morally justified to kill her abuser. I don't care what the law has to say about this.

And she didn't kill him just because of the rapes but also because she was protecting herself and her family from him. He absolutely would have murdered her and her kids if he found out she cheated on him (even though he also cheated on her which makes the whole situation hypocritical and sexist), so she was acting in self-defense to protect her family.

I feel like this is the eleventy-billionth time we've had this discussion. But no. She didn't kill him because she was concerned about her children. Ned offered to protect her and her children. If protecting her children was the priority, she had many better options than those she took.

In fact, the way she handled the situation was extremely high-risk for her children. She made no attempt to protect them, or to remove them from the capital. She knew that Ned knew about the incest, and made no attempt to silence him until after Robert was dead. If Ned had been less "nice", he could quite easily have told Robert on his deathbed, provoking exactly the consequences Cersei supposedly feared. Then, if Ned had been more competent and/or ruthless, he could have seized Cersei and all her children in an overnight coup, and handed them over to Stannis, who was even less likely to be merciful than Bob.

That Ned completely failed in his attempt to neutralise Cersei's power grab was entirely self-inflicted on his part and had nothing to do with any protective measures Cersei takes, because she doesn't take any. She simply assumed he would fail, and he did, but if she had genuinely been concerned for her kids, she should have done something to insure against his actually acting sensibly.

If she was genuinely motivated by protecting her children, then she is a complete and utter moron, because the actions she took put them in perhaps the greatest danger possible. If, however, we assume she was motivated by her own desire for power and status, and to a lesser extent revenge, they make perfect sense.

No doubt she fears for the safety of her children when they are actually immediately and obviously under threat, but she shows no signs of being able or willing to anticipate potential threats and head them off, or any genuine concern for her childrens' welfare when it doesn't obviously correlate with her own. She may justify her actions retrospectively by reference to her childrens' safety, but it's not an actual motivation in the moment. "Cersei wuvs her kids and that makes her sympathetic" is 99% a show thing, I think.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Alester Florent

[boltons are sick]

28 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I feel like this is the eleventy-billionth time we've had this discussion. But no. She didn't kill him because she was concerned about her children. Ned offered to protect her and her children. If protecting her children was the priority, she had many better options than those she took.

Ned's offer to "protect her and her children" was him just giving her a little headstart to leave the capital before he tells Robert. After that, Robert would have sent assassins after Cersei and her kids to kill them and Varys would have found their location through his magical network of spies and Cersei and her kids would have been killed. If you think I am making this part up, even Ned himself tells Cersei that Robert would never stop hunting for them.

So, no, it's not an offer to protect her and her kids as you are making it out but rather just a scrap of mercy which wouldn't have helped her in the long. Her only option to protect her kids was to stay in King's Landing, kill Robert and then find a way to silence Ned Stark (preferably by luring him to her side which is something she tried to do). 

As for the other examples you have listed, Cersei is arrogant and overconfident and she probably was convinced in her victory after Littlefinger bribed the Golden Cloaks for her. That doesn't mean she wasn't concerned about her children or that she didn't kill Robert to protect them from him. None of the examples you have given prove that Cersei wasn't acting to protect her children's lives.

Edited December 25, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Alester Florent]

I'm not going to bother arguing, because I know I won't convince you and I don't want to perpetuate this thread any longer than necessary. But suffice it to say that I do not agree that Cersei is primarily or even meaningfully motivated in any of the crimes she commits by a love for or fear for her children, nor do I find her a remotely tragic character.

Any scintilla of sympathy for her I might be able to muster is buried under such a mountain of contempt and revulsion that its effect on my opinion of her is negligible. From what we learn of her, I don't actually think Robert's abuse, even if we take that at its worst possible permutation, had a meaningful effect on her character to the extent it can be considered a mitigating factor: she was always an atrocious person and all that's changed as she's got older is that she's got more power so she can be atrocious on a larger scale. Honestly, I find I have more sympathy for Robert, just because there is at least the suggesion that at some point in his life he was actually likeable, and in what we see of him he does demonstrate at least a minimal amount of self-awareness.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Alester Florent

[boltons are sick]

19 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I'm not going to bother arguing, because I know I won't convince you and I don't want to perpetuate this thread any longer than necessary. But suffice it to say that I do not agree that Cersei is primarily or even meaningfully motivated in any of the crimes she commits by a love for or fear for her children, nor do I find her a remotely tragic character.

Any scintilla of sympathy for her I might be able to muster is buried under such a mountain of contempt and revulsion that its effect on my opinion of her is negligible. From what we learn of her, I don't actually think Robert's abuse, even if we take that at its worst possible permutation, had a meaningful effect on her character to the extent it can be considered a mitigating factor: she was always an atrocious person and all that's changed as she's got older is that she's got more power so she can be atrocious on a larger scale. Honestly, I find I have more sympathy for Robert, just because there is at least the suggesion that at some point in his life he was actually likeable, and in what we see of him he does demonstrate at least a minimal amount of self-awareness.

During her childhood, she was emotionally abused (by putting high expectations on her and then treating her the same way he treats Tyrion if she doesn't live up to them which puts a lot of pressure on her) and neglected by her father who also had a very bad influence on her by teaching her to blame her younger brother for the death of her mother, to look down on anyone who isn't a Lannister, to think that committing atrocities is ok, etc.

I have even posted about it:

• Her father Tywin was neglectful most of the time, barely displayed any parental love aside from a few occasions and he was a brutal ruler who taught his kids that they should be merciless, that they shouldn't care about morality only about the end results and that they should look down on small folk or anyone who isn't a Lannister. He is also strict with his expectations of her and doesn't allow her to deviate in any way from what he envisions her to be but at the same time he never disciplines her on how she should treat other people properly, never corrects her behaviour and even makes her believe that her younger brother Tyrion "killed" her mother due to simply being born which causes her to hate him. Even after she becomes a Queen, he still acts in a controlling way towards her and orders her around despite the fact she outranks him, doesn't seem to care a lot about how her husband treats her or if she is happy with her life, doesn't take her opinions into consideration most of the time and tries to force her into a second marriage despite Cersei's immense displeasure, which would also deprive her of her position as regent to King Joffrey and force her into another position where she is a powerless housewife to someone else, just because Tywin wants to increase his own power with him possibly even wanting to take the regency for himself away from Cersei. Her upbringing as Tywin's daughter causes her to have a very warped view of the world and because she feels unappreciated by her father and suffers from insecurities, she tries to emulate him in any way she can to win his approval.

She was also contantly subjected to sexism, being forced to witness how she and her brother Jaime got very different treatments, with him being more previleged simply because he is a boy and Cersei is forced to live with the thought the thought that she would never amount to much in life and would never be able to achieve a lot.

Also, her mother died when she was only 7, which is shown to affect her greatly.

Stop acting like she didn't have bad things happen to her at a very young age.

Also, calling a kid who is just a bully an "atrocious person" is way to harsh. There are plenty of bullies who manage to grow out of their tendencies as they age but they manage to find a supportive environment. Cersei, on the other hand, had a husband who disrespects her and rapes her which further ruins her psyche and a brother-lover who is also sexually dominating with her on certain occasions and doesn't seem to want to listen to her opinions and is interested only in having sex with her.

And, yes, Robert's rapes did affect, she literally wants to dominate other people because of them and they have made her more paranoid and fearful which affects her behavior in the 4th book when she is trying to protect her children's lives.

Edited December 25, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Alester Florent]

24 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, calling a kid who is just a bully an "atrocious person" is way to harsh.

She's not "just a bully". She's a murderer. Even if you think some people are too harsh on Cersei, the answer to that isn't to try to whitewash her. As I think I've said before, your attempts to do so actually make me like Cersei less, because it draws attention to how flimsy any of the supposed justifications are.

Like I say, there's no point arguing, because apart from anything else I'm not even sure we're reading the same books. You know where I stand. I'm out.

[boltons are sick]

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

She's not "just a bully". She's a murderer. Even if you think some people are too harsh on Cersei, the answer to that isn't to try to whitewash her. As I think I've said before, your attempts to do so actually make me like Cersei less, because it draws attention to how flimsy any of the supposed justifications are.

Like I say, there's no point arguing, because apart from anything else I'm not even sure we're reading the same books. You know where I stand. I'm out.

We don't know if she actually murdered Melara or not, so I hate when people treat it as a fact simply because they don't like Cersei and they try to make her as bad as possible.

I have seen a lot of people who also claim that Cersei is so depraved that she wants to sleep with her own son Joffrey and she would do it if she had the chance. They claim these things just because they don't like Cersei even though there is no evidence in the text that she wants to sleep with Joffrey.

The situation with Melara is the same. We don't know what happens but the fans think Cersei murdered Melara simply because they don't like her even though we don't know for sure.

Edited December 25, 2023 by boltons are sick

[SaffronLady]

20 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

We don't know if she actually murdered Melara or not, so I hate when people treat it as a fact simply because they don't like Cersei and they try to make her as bad as possible.

Fair point. However, we do know what she did do while Melara was down that well.

She stayed behind to make sure Melara is dead. I mean, yes, technically she didn't murder her, but how does that not make her not a cruel and capricious person?

Of course we could play the blame game all day, but out of all victims of Westerosi systemic sexism, Cersei has gone too far to make her actions defensible by merely that. Even Lysa Arryn nee Tully is less atrocious.

[boltons are sick]

11 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Fair point. However, we do know what she did do while Melara was down that well.

She stayed behind to make sure Melara is dead. I mean, yes, technically she didn't murder her, but how does that not make her not a cruel and capricious person?

Of course we could play the blame game all day, but out of all victims of Westerosi systemic sexism, Cersei has gone too far to make her actions defensible by merely that. Even Lysa Arryn nee Tully is less atrocious.

We also don't know if she really didn't try to help Melara because the text never mentions it. For all we know, she may have tried to help Melara, but failed to do it in time which would explain why she feels guilt and why she quickly tries to forget about it every time she starts thinking about it. I would say, wait at least until the 6th book comes out which would probably shed more light on this situation before using this to condemn Cersei based on pure speculation and fan interpretation

Edited December 25, 2023 by boltons are sick