Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 5 hours ago, SaffronLady said: But as a personal preference, my pet theory of the 3EC's true identity is Reveal hidden contents Howland Reed because, most importantly, he isn't a Targ. I'm more inclined to Benjen Stark. But anyone with two eyes is more likely than Bloodraven. Metaphorically "three eyed", represents a two eyed person with a mystical "third eye". Also "crow" may be a metaphor for a member of the Night's Watch. Bloodraven is an ex-crow; and Howland is not a crow at all. And, as @Mourning Star points out, a raven is not a crow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 26 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: Bloodraven is an ex-crow; and Howland is not a crow at all. Howland isn't a confirmed member or ex-member of the Night's Watch, yes, but there are more ways than that to be a crow. A crow on his personal coat of arms, for instance. Having an uncanny talent for sensing and profiting from death, for another. There is so little confirmed info on the man. 32 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: POVs (collectively) may be everything. But it does not follow that a POV's beliefs, as distinguished from that POV's objective observations, are everything. That was the distinction I drew, and you're kinda ignoring what I actually said. I can't ignore what you actually said, if you never clarified it to the point wherein you claim I ignored what you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 11 hours ago, sifth said: GRRM literally said in an interview, that he planned for the Three Eyed Crow to be a character connected to House Targaryen back in the first book. This alone confirmed it for me. A source might help. Then maybe we can discuss what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 3 hours ago, SaffronLady said: I can't ignore what you actually said, if you never clarified it to the point wherein you claim I ignored what you said. I can't force you to understand what I said. And it seems you don't want to. Anyway, you have your clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said: A source might help. Then maybe we can discuss what it means. You’re asking for me to find an interview from 2011. Best of luck. I just don’t believe any of the conjectures that Bran is in some crazy time loop. Edited January 18 by sifth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: Tis' about as ironic as the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise. BR is not a wise old wizard who could fix his legs. Bran chastises himself about being a child for having stupid dreams. End of story. Fix his legs, as in fix them in place? like roots of a tree? irony? 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: Do we know how "dream-crossing" works in ASOIAF magic? I don’t understand the question. 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: Is it a given that not only there are permanent "dream-selves", but the "dream-crosser" knows what their "dream-selves" look like? The 3EC in Bran’s dream talks about having wings (this alone proves it knows how it appears, and if one appearing in another’s dreams couldn’t remember anything, what would be the point?) 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: If not, it remains possible BR is both the tree and the crow. The tree and the crow are sometimes in dreams together and sometimes separate, this means they are distinct entities. 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: If not, it is entirely reasonable BR does not understand when Bran outright asks him "Are you the 3EC" without further clarification. Again, this does not fit with what we know. 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: Seriously, if your theory is not convincing people, ask before you defend. Why? People are oblivious of and believe silly things all the time… and repeat nonsense, like the idea that Bloodraven doesn’t know he’s the 3EC, when the text of the original falling dream makes clear this isn’t the case. People ignore the text where Bran says he’s pretending Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. I posted here because I hate that people still push the terrible theory that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: At least know why you're not persuading people to your position before you handwave all the little holes in your sieve of a theory away. Except I’m literally quoting the story and pointing out hard evidence that Bloodraven isn’t the three eyed crow. 15 hours ago, SaffronLady said: I fail to see from the lines you quote that shows Bran knows BR isn't the 3EC. He literally says he’s pretending. Does he know deep down, or suspect, or refuse to believe, or is confused… doesn’t really matter, call it what you want, just don’t call a raven a crow. 14 hours ago, sifth said: GRRM literally said in an interview, that he planned for the Three Eyed Crow to be a character connected to House Targaryen back in the first book. This alone confirmed it for me. Well that and the fact that Bran literally tells us that BR turns into a crow, while training him in his dreams. He even says the iconic line, that he will teach Bran how to fly. I agree that the 3EC will be of Targaryen blood, just not that this means it’s Bloodraven. But Bloodraven/Bittersteel weren’t thought of until way after the first book. The real hint in this quote, imo, is that the 3EC was a character in the story from the start. I don’t really like the idea of time traveling Bran taking to himself either. Edited January 18 by Mourning Star sifth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, sifth said: You’re asking for me to find an interview from 2011. Best of luck. I searched a bit. Found no exact words. Aparently Elio asked GRRM if he always knew BR was the 3EC, and GRRM said he always knew the 3EC had some connection to the Targs but not necessarily the specifics. Which sounds like confirmation to those already convinced. To those not convinced, it looks like a nimble dodge of a loaded question. 1 hour ago, sifth said: I just don’t believe any of the conjectures that Bran is in some crazy time loop. I'm not a fan of time loop ideas. But GRRM could disappoint me, I guess. Edited January 18 by Gilbert Green sifth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vante Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Saw video on this a while back but any theory involving Vaegon having any part in the maester conspiracy. The man just wanted to be left alone and while he wasn’t the friendly with his family he also wasn’t friendly with anyone. Lady Isis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 5 hours ago, Gilbert Green said: And it seems you don't want to. And this was entirely unnecessary. 4 hours ago, Mourning Star said: The real hint in this quote, imo, is that the 3EC was a character in the story from the start. A character already thought about at the start but with Targ connexions inserted later? 4 hours ago, Mourning Star said: don’t call a raven a crow. Bloodraven also happens to be an ex-crow. 4 hours ago, Mourning Star said: People ignore the text where Bran says he’s pretending Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. Since the relevant parts you quoted could really be interpreted either way, I'll just peace out. Today is one day out of too many that TWOW is not published. Prince of the North 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 4 hours ago, Mourning Star said: I agree that the 3EC will be of Targaryen blood, just not that this means it’s Bloodraven. I don't know, that just seems a little too convoluted if you ask me. There's hardly any Targ's even alive when the story starts and I somehow doubt Jon, Dany or Faegon are the 3EC, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, SaffronLady said: And this was entirely unnecessary. Guess so. We all say unnecessary things sometimes. 1 hour ago, SaffronLady said: A character already thought about at the start but with Targ connexions inserted later? Maybe he was thinking Benjen had Targ heritage; maybe ditto Lyanna (hence her unearthly beauty and Rhaegar's interest in her as the mother of a prophesied Targ savior). But had not worked out the details yet. It was only relatively recently that we learned that Rickard's wife was also a Stark by birth, and that Rickard (and his wife?) was in KL at around the time of Aerys' randy period of messing with other men's wives. 1 hour ago, SaffronLady said: Bloodraven also happens to be an ex-crow. Then I'd say that at the time of Bran's dream, he was not a crow any more. But who knows how far GRRM is willing to stretch his metaphors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: It was only relatively recently that we learned that Rickard's wife was also a Stark by birth, and that Rickard (and his wife?) was in KL at around the time of Aerys' randy period of messing with other men's wives. Another potential secret Targ? How many secret Targs do we have by this point in the main series? Imma facepalm a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 13 minutes ago, SaffronLady said: Another potential secret Targ? How many secret Targs do we have by this point in the main series? Imma facepalm a bit. Hot Pie is a secret Targ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyLittlePsycho Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 24 minutes ago, SaffronLady said: Another potential secret Targ? How many secret Targs do we have by this point in the main series? Imma facepalm a bit. I´d say, if every secret Targ theory comes true, they´d outnumber the Golden Company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: Hot Pie is a secret Targ. Oh gods no. Speaking of which, I really don't like bastard theories. X is bastard, Y is bastard, bastards everywhere. A bastard sword for a bastard dynasty (Blackfyre, and the whole King Aenys is a bastard theory). The way these people read the series is like ye classic Crusader Kings ever since Way of Life DLC came out. Every man and woman on seduction focus. Men seducing women, women seducing men, men seducing men, women seducing women... Edited January 18 by SaffronLady And me, gelding everyone who seduces my wife in the midst of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 32 minutes ago, SaffronLady said: Another potential secret Targ? How many secret Targs do we have by this point in the main series? Imma facepalm a bit. Why should there be a limit? It is not as though King Robert had only two bastards. And King Robert was only one man. Anyhow, Rhaegar was a secret Hasty, so it balances out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 15 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said: I´d say, if every secret Targ theory comes true, they´d outnumber the Golden Company. If every careless driver got killed, we'd all be dead. But it isn't all or nothing you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyLittlePsycho Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 14 hours ago, Alester Florent said: Hot Pie is a secret Targ. He´s actually Aegon, no wait... Grey Wind, oh no, no no, Obi Wan. Edited January 19 by PrettyLittlePsycho Lady Isis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Bolt-on How can anyone make an argument with a straight face when step one is insert hyphen into someone's name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 12 hours ago, Groo said: Bolt-on How can anyone make an argument with a straight face when step one is insert hyphen into someone's name? Maybe the theory is one thing, and the cutesy name another. Maybe the cutesy name was not the "first step". Personally, I think "Bolton" is a reference to a fictional town from the works of HP Lovecraft, and not a clue to the Boltons being very literal skin-changers. But they could still be literal skin changers, for all I know. Like the faceless men, but moreso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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