Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[astarkchoice]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:23 PM, sifth said:

Varys being a Targ, who shaves his head bald. I just hate this theory, though I'm not really happy that fAegon exists either, so what do I know.

Naah faegon at least gives varys actions a motivation and  good backstory. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Naah faegon at least gives varys actions a motivation and  good backstory. 

Yea, because Varys helping Dany and Viserys from afar wasn't doing that already.

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Potsk said:

I see your "Illyrio is Aerion's grandson" and raise you: Illyrio is the Tattered Prince's son, and the Tattered Prince is Prince Maegor, son of Aerion.

Hear me out: Bloodraven and Shiera had a daughter, who was the lover of Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf. They had a child together, the Tattered Prince, who (obviously) is the father of Illyrio. Now the backstory of Illyrio's mother is complicated, because this woman was the granddaughter of Alys Rivers and Aemond Targaryen trough their son, who got abducted as a child by the greem men of the Isle fo Faces, but left after a hundred years on an important quest. This guy, still young (magic), married the daughter of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre, and the two had a daughter, Illyrio's mother, and a son. We'll return to this son soon, but let's go back to Illyrio, who as a part Targaryen, part Blackfyre and part Stark, found himself finding his long lost Blackfyre cousin Serra Blackfyre, the older sister of Vaerys Blackfyre. Their parents were Maegor Targaryen and the secret daughter of Maelys the Monstrous (quite a beauty, actually. Remember, the Blackfyre line only died out on the male line, becaus ethey forgot about his secret daughter). Anyway Illyrio is the father of Young Griff, but this line ends here, because, I hope you can follow me on this, we still have to talk about the son of the Tattered Prince, because Tattered Prince Jr. met the descendant of Bellegere Otherys and Aegon IV, who became the mother of the current Black Pearl of Bravos and Jaqen H'ghar, the faceless asassin, whose real name is Rhaevaegaerys. 

That's it for today, I'm still figuring out what's the connection between this branch and the bastards fathered by Aerion during his exile. One of these supposed bastards, who (obviously) existed, might have been the mother of Maelys the Monstrous. Who was a Targaryen-Blackfyre hybrid, hence the two heads. The reason the two heads are exclusive to Maelys and are absent in the case of Illyrio's Targaryen-Blacfyre mother is because the son of Alys Rivers and Aemond Targaryen weren't the descendants of Aegon IV. 

Edited March 17 by Daeron the Daring

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, because Varys helping Dany and Viserys from afar wasn't doing that already.

Yeah but he had 0 reason to

Faegon as ilyrios lil bastard   gives him  a a good reason 

By contrast  varys being a targ himself  theory is a terrible one.

Edited March 17 by astarkchoice

[sifth]

45 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah but he had 0 reason to

Faegon as ilyrios lil bastard   gives him  a a good reason 

By contrast  varys being a targ himself  theory is a terrible one.

So explain to me why Dany got the dragon eggs from Illyrio then? Assuming Faegon existed in GRRM's mind back in the early 90's while writing this story, there's no way Illyrio wouldn't have saved one of his three dragon eggs for Faegon.

I mean we even have proof that he's a last minute addition to the story, thanks to Gsteff, reading the original drafts of ADWD at the Cushing Library and posting the details on reddit. Faegon doesn't exist in any of the early drafts, expect for the one GRRM published in 2011.

 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

So explain to me why Dany got the dragon eggs from Illyrio then? Assuming Faegon existed in GRRM's mind back in the early 90's while writing this story, there's no way Illyrio wouldn't have saved one of his three dragon eggs for Faegon.

I mean we even have proof that he's a last minute addition to the story, thanks to Gsteff, reading the original drafts of ADWD at the Cushing Library and posting the details on reddit. Faegon doesn't exist in any of the early drafts, expect for the one GRRM published in 2011.

 

Because he has 0 reason to believe theyl come alive.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Because he has 0 reason to believe theyl come alive.

They were worth a fortune and could buy Young Griff several armies. It makes no sense for Illyrio to give them to some girl he expects to die on the Dothraki Sea.

Edited March 17 by sifth

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

They were worth a fortune and could buy Young Griff several armies. It makes no sense for Illyrio to give them to some girl he expects to die on the Dothraki Sea.

They are expensive but not that much man, we know he has 3 ships filled to the brim with rare expensive shit at the very bare minimum and the finest largest merc force in all of planetos at his back.

[sifth]

22 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

They are expensive but not that much man, we know he has 3 ships filled to the brim with rare expensive shit at the very bare minimum and the finest largest merc force in all of planetos at his back.

I mean Jorah tells us they're one of the most expensive thing on the planet. That Dany would be wealthy for the rest of her life if she sold them. Still doesn't explain why Illyrio would just throw something so valuable away, if he expected Dany to just die in the waste.

Also, you ignored my second point, that we literally have proof that GRRM invented Faegon at the last minute, from him not appearing in any of the earlier drafts of ADWD; thanks to Gsteff and all the notes they gave us. The Jon Connington POV was also something invented at the last minute as well, same with Barristan. GRRM also constantly changes his mind about killing off Victarion.

Edited March 17 by sifth

[astarkchoice]

26 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Jorah tells us they're one of the most expensive thing on the planet. That Dany would be wealthy for the rest of her life if she sold them. Still doesn't explain why Illyrio would just throw something so valuable away, if he expected Dany to just die in the waste.

Also, you ignored my second point, that we literally have proof that GRRM invented Faegon at the last minute, from him not appearing in any of the earlier drafts of ADWD; thanks to Gsteff and all the notes they gave us. The Jon Connington POV was also something invented at the last minute as well, same with Barristan. GRRM also constantly changes his mind about killing off Victarion.

They are but rare goods seem to be his thing plus he needs a suitably lavish wedding gift for his drogo misdirection.

 

Yep if he wrote it afterwards q¹s22varsy 'decret targ or targ lover

Edited March 17 by astarkchoice

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

They are but rare goods seem to be his thing plus he needs a suitably lavish wedding gift for his drogo misdirect

There are much cheaper gifts. Like the ones Illyrio gives her in the original draft. In the original chapters, Illyrio is suppose to give Dany a chest of fine silks, gold and gems. Dany is suppose to find the Dragon Eggs in a cave, when she gets scared and runs from Drogo. All of this changed in the published book however.

Edited March 17 by sifth

[astarkchoice]

8 hours ago, sifth said:

There are much cheaper gifts. Like the ones Illyrio gives her in the original draft. In the original chapters, Illyrio is suppose to give Dany a chest of fine silks, gold and gems. Dany is suppose to find the Dragon Eggs in a cave, when she gets scared and runs from Drogo. All of this changed in the published book however.

He later gives her 3 ships worth of goods combined worth probably far far more than the eggs and cheap isnt the point the wedding is supposed to be lavish...gifts fit for a dragon queen and what appears to be the man who'l soon control the entire dothraki nation and thus virtualy corner the slave supply  market!! 

He already has 10k of the finest troops on planetos backing him and based on the 3 ships of treasure could probably double that  with a mix of lesser merc companies

 

 

Edit on thinking the other isdue is we are assuming jorah and his 3 servants with dany wont life the eggs should she die, if she doesnt die hes made an amazingly useful+  powerful ally for life...thats shit you dont go cheap on

Edited March 18 by astarkchoice

[sifth]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

He later gives her 3 ships worth of goods combined worth probably far far more than the eggs and cheap isnt the point the wedding is supposed to be lavish...gifts fit for a dragon queen and what appears to be the man who'l soon control the entire dothraki nation and thus virtualy corner the slave supply  market!! 

 

He didn't give Dany those ships, she took them from him and Illyrio was just alright, with her basically stealing from him. You have to remember those ships were just suppose to bring Dany back to Pentos. While on her way to Pentos, Dany takes command of them and orders them to Slavers Bay.

Listen, we're going around in circles here. I will admit, that Illyrio and Varys conversation in the first book, does tell us that both of them are working for a 4th faction. I'm just saying that as far as ADWD goes, Faegon was created at the last minute, by all current evidence we have available. Simply put, GRRM hinted at this 4th faction in the first book, but couldn't make his mind about it, until towards the end of his writing of ADWD. That's the only point, I was making.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

He didn't give Dany those ships, she took them from him and Illyrio was just alright, with her basically stealing from him. You have to remember those ships were just suppose to bring Dany back to Pentos. While on her way to Pentos, Dany takes command of them and orders them to Slavers Bay.

Listen, we're going around in circles here. I will admit, that Illyrio and Varys conversation in the first book, does tell us that both of them are working for a 4th faction. I'm just saying that as far as ADWD goes, Faegon was created at the last minute, by all current evidence we have available. Simply put, GRRM hinted at this 4th faction in the first book, but couldn't make his mind about it, until towards the end of his writing of ADWD. That's the only point, I was making.

Thats true but the point was he had far more wealth in them than 3 dragon eggs and he probably has far far more in his manse and on  all of his other ships.

Even so its still a better backgroind and motivatiom for varys and ties illyrio in nicely

Edited March 18 by astarkchoice

[JoyfulJoy]

If it's any help, according to this post, varys has purple eyes in the grapic novel, GRRM had a say in how the characters look, if Varys didn't have purple eyes he could have changed it to them being brown or something, Varys eyes won't ever stated (most fans drew them as being brown since that's the most basic color), so it might be possible he is hiding them, the thing that makes me stop, is that whenever a character had a secret eye color, it was shown as something like "in certain lights it looked purple", however GRRM might be holding onto it.

That is unless Vary's eye color isn't purple lol, or he's from Lys who has purple eyes.

That said, even is Varys is a secret Valyrian, I think it's most likely he's a Brightflame, Aerion was exiled to Lys, and GRRM specially stated that he might have had bastards.

Here is the post BTW there is another hint/theory in the comment:  

 

[FantasyCreature]

Hi there! I'd written this out long ago, but back then I wasn't a member and it didn't get posted. Um, so this is my first post, I hope I'm not breaking any rules.

Anyway, I've lurked on this site a lot, and other places too, and I've know of many theories, if I might say so myself. I have a big bunch of theories I dislike (I don't really hate any of these, unless I say so). A few of the ones I will mention are going to be just throwaway lines on some post, and some will be very familiar to you all as they're fully fleshed out. Let's get started. 

 

- Secret Identities 

1. Coldhands is... yep, Benjen Stark. Please. It's been disproved over and over again.
2. Melisandre is actually Shiera Seastar. Too far-fetched... and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have that reaction when she saw Bloodraven in the flames.
3. The dusky woman is Euron's spy, or even better, Euron Greyjoy himself. Wow, excellent. At least being a spy is plausible. As for Euron... More incest, anyone?
4. Speaking of Euron: Euron Greyjoy is Daario Naharis. What, can the guy teleport or something?
5. The Jeyne that Jaime Lannister met is not actually Jeyne Westerling. Y'know, because of her hips. I don't buy it, and it was stated to be an error anyway.

Actually, there are lots and lots of secret identity theories I don't like. Mance is Rhaegar? Varys is Theon? For goodness' sake, Roose Bolton is the legendary Night King, or an immortal vampire? (the last one is just absurdly funny to me) Maybe the main reason for my dislike just how overused it is... If everyone is someone else, then where do whores go? Sorry, bad joke. But of all plot devices, secret identities are some which should be used very sparingly, or it loses its effect. 

 

- Character Pairings 

1. The Blackfish will impregnate Jeyne Westerling and pass off the kid as Robb's heir. Ugh, please no.
2. Tyrion Lannister and Penny will eventually get involved romantically. Our dear dwarf, without whom whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock, has stated he isn't interested in Penny several times. Pretty sure he means it. Also, another one: Tyrion will have sex with Lanna (the Sailor's Wife's daughter, in a brothel in Braavos), who may or may not be his own daughter. 
3. The Stark in Winterfell in the end is going to be Sansa and Littlefinger's child. No comments. 
4. Bran Stark will warg into Hodor and rape Meera Reed. I mean, it makes sense as it seems Bran is on the way to breaking all rules of warging, but he's just a kid, there's other ways to break that rule, and I'm not sure even ASoIaF would contain something like that. Hmmm, it might, actually.
5. Jon and Sansa will end up together. Sorry, JonSa shippers. I might be prejudiced, but the "proof" given for this pairing seems wishful and doesn't convince me. 

 

- Deaths / Not Deaths

1. Oberyn Martell died willingly. Apparently because he knew that if he won the trial, Gregor would be beheaded, but as Oberyn wanted him to die in agony over a long time, he let himself die after poisioning Gregor. Like, what?
2. Sansa Stark is the one who killed Joffrey (or poisoned the pie/wine anyway). Apparently she blocks out the memory and that's why we don't see it in her PoV. I don't believe in it, and it's very unlike her. She didn't even know her hairnet had poison crystals.
3. Shireen will be burned alive by Stannis Baratheon. I know, I know, it's probable (apparently one of the things George RR Martin supplied to the show), but I hate thinking about it, and Stannis' character still hasn't reached that point yet. As of now, it would be very out of character for him to do it.
4. Theon Greyjoy will be sacrificed to a heart tree. Also probable, but I feel there's more to Theon's character. His "redemption arc" and retaking his personality still hasn't been finished.
5. Ned Stark (love that Ned is his official name in the fandom) is alive and in hiding. No. Ned's death was one of the biggest and most important moments of the series. It shouldn't be undermined like that.
6. The dead people Arya Stark came upon while she was blind are Loras Tyrell and Olenna Tyrell. Much too unlikely, and isn't really a fitting end for the characters. This death doesn't add anything to the story at all.
7. Character X is alive. Gods, who is dead?

This "not actually dead" thing is also overused like the secret identities thing. To be fair, many of them are quite interesting and probable, but there's so much tinfoil and cracked pots here. Oh, so everyone is actually alive, except for the people who you want dead. Arthur Dayne is alive, Syrio Forel is alive, and Shiera Seastar is most definitely fit and fine and pretending to be someone else. Hellooo? Open your ears: valar morghulis!

 

- Miscellaneous / Prophecy Related

1. Loras Tyrell is the valonqar. Uhm, excuse me? Prophecy twists are great (like Jaime being the actual valonqar instead of Tyrion), but Loras? A waste and a let-down, if it happens. He's not Cersei's valonqar anyway (but well, it wasn't mentioned specifically that it would be her brother).
2. The Doom of Valyria was caused because the mages maintaining the Fourteen Flames died, probably assassinated by the Faceless Men. I'd rather keep the mystery. Moreover, an additional aspect to this theory is that the mages were killed because of the political rivalry in Valyria. So, the Valyrians thought, "Ok, I must harm my rival, and the best way to do it is... hmmm... oh, Eureka! Why don't I assassinate one of the guys who keeps our city safe from being blown up? That'll teach the rascal a lesson!" 
3. The mages in question were half-dragon. As an extension, Melisandre is half-dragon. Interesting, but horrifying. That means human females were mated with dragons, which, um, I'm not sure how it works. But ah well, Valyrians had their ways.
4. Maesters (or the Citadel and the archmaesters) have been actively plotting against Targaryens (or magic in general). I've strongly disliked it since I first heard of it, so it may cloud my judgement now. But I don't find the offered proof very convincing, and what would they gain personally?
5. Robert Strong is undead Gregor Clegane, and he has Robb's head. I'm all aboard the first part, but the second? Well, it never was mentioned what happened to Robb's head... But this doesn't really serve any purpose, and would be an useless link between them. It may be that Strong is made up of various humans, but I think (and hope) the Young Wolf isn't one of them.
6. Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven, is evil and the mastermind behind everything. Please, give the guy a break. He has done some bad things, but so has pretty much everyone in the series. At least, unlike many others, Brynden had the realm's peace as his purpose. Even now, he's just sitting away in a cave far away from humanity, trying to teach a kid the ways of greenseeing so he can finally retire and die in peace. 
7. Hot Pie is Azor Ahai— oh, nooo, I'm sorryyy, this shouldn't be on the disliked list. Our chubby little baker is the Prince that Was Promised!

Alright, I think I'm done. If I think hard enough, I'm sure I'll find more.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on my offerings!  (I have been waiting for so long to use the emojis on this site, they're so adorable!)

[Prince of the North]

I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote.  And welcome!

[kissdbyfire]

Colour me impressed, that was a pitch-perfect inaugural post! Welcome!

3 hours ago, FantasyCreature said:

Theon Greyjoy will be sacrificed to a heart tree. Also probable, but I feel there's more to Theon's character. His "redemption arc" and retaking his personality still hasn't been finished.

He won’t be sacrificed in front of the heart tree. That said, Stannis will have him brought there perhaps w/ that intention but Stannis and whoever else is with him are in for a big surprise.

[JoyfulJoy]

“Melisandre is actually Shiera Seastar. “

Order of the greenhand said that, it doesn’t even make sense, Melisandre has memories of being sold as a child, why would she shapeshift into a child?

Edited March 30 by JoyfulJoy

[FantasyCreature]

5 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote.  And welcome!

Glad you agree, and thank you 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Colour me impressed, that was a pitch-perfect inaugural post! Welcome!

He won’t be sacrificed in front of the heart tree. That said, Stannis will have him brought there perhaps w/ that intention but Stannis and whoever else is with him are in for a big surprise.

Hehe, I'm happy you liked it. Thank you too. I certainly hope so, I don't want Theon to die yet.

31 minutes ago, JoyfulJoy said:

“Melisandre is actually Shiera Seastar. “

Order of the greenhand said that, it doesn’t even make sense, Melisandre has memories of being sold as a child, why would shapeshift into a child?

Excellent point!