Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[House Cambodia]

26 minutes ago, sifth said:

Some believe it was destroyed by the Horn of Joramun. Listen, I think this theory is BS, but I do find it strange that people believe the Wall will be destroyed if it is blown, without any proof.

There's also the Night's Watch vow, saying they are the "watchers on the walls". Again, all this seems pretty weak, in trying to support the theory.

I'm of the same view, it's BS. Presumably, the location of the first Wall would be where the current Wall is. All you need is for the ice to melt, and you've got 300 miles of rubble. Magically re-freeze it and, bingo!

I watched a YouTube yesterday (forget which creator already) which put forward the idea that blowing the Horn of Joramun results in the Wall being BUILT, not demolished! Kinda makes equal sense as the mainstream myth.

[House Cambodia]

18 hours ago, sifth said:

That all the magic we've seen is just "technology we don't understand". This theory made no sense to me and still doesn't. If you're looking for some type of logic, to explain the The Others, The Wall and dragons, then this is the wrong series for you. They're dark fantasy, clear as day.

If you're interested, here's a YouTube released today putting forward the idea that magic does not exist (FWIW, it's not a view I go along with)

The Biggest Lie in Game of Thrones ''The Magic''

[Sandy Clegg]

9 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Precisely, why would a powerful noble lady, with likely weak and slow hands, do the deed herself? she is the one most likely to get caught.

Where one sees 'weak and slow', others may say 'calm and experienced'. Cressen was pretty old and managed it under far more stressful circumstances.

9 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

if the strangler was used, a poison ment to simulate a choaking and remove concerns of murder, a pie seems like a more logical place to put the poison in, instead of a wine, something you can't choak on.

George himself said that 'it was meant to lead people to believe he had choked on food.'

It's a wedding. There was plenty of food.

This is possibly why Margaery was so keen for Joffrey to sit down at the table - where the food was (this assumes she was in on it, of course). We can see it as a stroke of luck (for Tyrells) that he happened to consume the pie and the wine in a single stroke. So there were wrinkles, and it wasn't a plan without risk.

But killing kings is risky business. Killing dwarves is not. If Olenna or LF wanted Tyrion dead they could have done it at their leisure, at any time after the wedding, no? He's hardly difficult to kill (plot armour notwithstanding).

Joff is usually surrounded by Kingsguard. The wedding provided ample distraction (jousting dwarves, etc.) which enabled a plan which would have been incredibly difficult at any other time.

Why kill Tyrion at the wedding at all, is my question?

[John Suburbs]

On 4/1/2024 at 11:42 AM, CamiloRP said:

I'm a dumbass, I read your original comment wrong, I thought you where buying LF's story, hahahha.

I do believe the poison was in the pie and Tyrion was the target, however, I don't think that would ever be revealed, and the other explanation is wonky, sure, but not as wonky as all the "shiera seastar is gonna save the world" theories out there.

Once in this forum I argued for days with a dude who claimed Jaqen H'gar was Aegon...

I think it will come out. Lady Olenna is still alive, and we have yet to see a candid conversation between any of the Tyrells. Petyr is also alive, and he might have some reason to spill the truth to someone, maybe even Sansa. And Bran will likely be able to see all and know all some day.

My favorite poison wine excuses are that Mel poisoned Joffrey through her flames on Dragonstone, Butterbumps used is juggling skills to lob the crystal into the chalice, and that Petyre trained one of the doves to swoop in and snatch the crystal off Sansa's head and drop it it.

[Sandy Clegg]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Petyre trained one of the doves to swoop in and snatch the crystal off Sansa's head and drop it it.

I would be satisfied with this, not gonna lie.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I would be satisfied with this, not gonna lie.

I liked the Butterbumps one lol

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Where one sees 'weak and slow', others may say 'calm and experienced'. Cressen was pretty old and managed it under far more stressful circumstances.

Cressen was spotted, and there were way less people in that situation. Besides, he didn't put the poison when everyone was looking at the wine, like Olenna supposedly did.

 

Quote

George himself said that 'it was meant to lead people to believe he had choked on food.'

It's a wedding. There was plenty of food.

This is possibly why Margaery was so keen for Joffrey to sit down at the table - where the food was (this assumes she was in on it, of course). We can see it as a stroke of luck (for Tyrells) that he happened to consume the pie and the wine in a single stroke. So there were wrinkles, and it wasn't a plan without risk.

Why not put the poison in his food and avoid both the possibility of someone else consuming it (or maybe it being dunked on the floor) and the possibility of Joff seeming to choak on wine after not eating anything.

 

Quote

But killing kings is risky business. Killing dwarves is not. If Olenna or LF wanted Tyrion dead they could have done it at their leisure, at any time after the wedding, no? He's hardly difficult to kill (plot armour notwithstanding).

Joff is usually surrounded by Kingsguard. The wedding provided ample distraction (jousting dwarves, etc.) which enabled a plan which would have been incredibly difficult at any other time.

Killing Tyrion is hard. If you are discovered, Tywin will have you killed, after all he went to war because he was kidnapped. And Tyrion is generally guarded by Bronn, Vale clansmen and Lannister guards.

 

Quote

Why kill Tyrion at the wedding at all, is my question?

Same reason as Joffrey: Petyr could've sneaked some poison into Joffrey's food any other day, he owns a few of his guards, but he wanted the destraction and chaos it being at the wedding would provide, so he can steal Sansa.

 

 

 

 

Quote

• •  

Posted 16 hours ago

19 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

More to the point, how many things do you know which do dissolve in lemon cream?

Lemon cream was just an off the cuff sugestion, saliva and stomach acid are the strongest bets.

 

Quote

It's a high intensity moment, so Olenna probably had little time to act.

Precisely, why would a powerful noble lady, with likely weak and slow hands, do the deed herself? she is the one most likely to get caught.

 

Quote

I'm not saying the pie idea is impossible, just that it would require a lot more planning, which has less support in the text.

Not at all, Littlefinger had been making plans with Dontos since the previous books, if I recall correctly, it was a thurroghly planned out plan. And briving a waiter is much simpler than the whole Tyrell weird ass conspiracy.

 

Quote

Nobody inspected the lemon cream, and if it turns up two books later that 'someone remembered the lemon cream having a purplish tinge' then that's not especially great writing on GRRM's part, imo.

With this I agree, but the lemon cream was just an example, and it could be revealed in another way, or not be revealed at all.

 

 

Littlefinger is not to be trusted, so lets analyze LF's "confesion" to Sansa as if it was a fan theory. Lets say Petyr never tells Sansa what happened and, removing this "confesion", analyze what Petyr said as a fan theory..

Fan theory: Little Finger and the Tyrells work together to poison Joffrey.

I have little evidence for this theory but, we all know that Olenna grabbed Sansa's harinet, which had a stone missing, and the stones are revealed by Ptyr to be poison. So, did the Queen of Thornes removed the stone when fixing Sansa's net? It's the only suspect we have.

How did Petyr and Olenna plan this out? well, LF could've had some time alone with the QoT when he travelled to Highgarden to convince her son to wed Margeary to Joffrey. In this time together he could've revealed how cruel Joff was, after all, Olenna and Marge knew he was cruel and asked Sansa about that, it seems likely that information comes from Petyr. On the other hand Loras spent a long time in KL, the rumors can come from him, or from Renly, who was close to the Tyrells. I don't know how Petyr convinced the Tyrells to trust him tho, I mean, he was praising Joff in order to get the marriage, and the Tyrells have no reason to include him in the plan, but he obviously managed to convince them. Petyr can be very persuasive and Olenna is the only one who touched Sansa's hairnet.

So, the plan was for, before the party started, before they got in the throne room, Olenna to grab the stone from Sansa, and wait for a moment in which everyone was distracted (looking at Tyrion serving Joff the wine) to slip some poison in the wine without being seen. In the destraction Sansa would sneak away with Dontos.

Why did Petyr want to kill Joffrey? I don't know, maybe to confuse his enemies because he did something without reason. Tho this would require for his enemies to know he did it.

 

 

Now let's analyze the other theory under the same circumpstances: LF never "confesed" to Sansa:

 

Fan theory: Tyrion was the intended target in the purple wedding.

So, Littlefinger wants Tyrion dead. In AFFC Cersei thinks about how he offered to wed Sansa, and througout the story we see several instances in which he clearly is infatuated with her (touching her hair in the tourney of the hand, kissing her in the eary, etc). Sansa even thinks he looks at her with lust. But Sansa s married to Tyrion, so for her to marry LF, Tyrion needs to die first. Also Tyrion took a lot of LF's power away when he was hand, by replacing his men; Tyrion also knows about the dagger, which is a loose end; and someone tried to kill Tyrion in the Blackwater, I don't think this was Cersei, as she never thinks about that.

On the other hand, Littlefinger has no reason to want joffrey dead, Joffrey seems easy to manipulate, and tehre are a few hints he already did, as Janos Slynt (LFs man) knew Eddard was going to be executed. Ofcourse no one wanted Ned to die, except for Petyr, who wanted to start a war. Varys and Tyrion both think someone had a hand in Ned's execution and even as late as ADWD characters think about what a wrong move it was.

Also, the poison being in the chalice makes little sense: everyone was drinking from it, and it was even being emptied with no one drinking it, what if Margeary died? Or what if the poison was wasted? would the person (likely a servant) who placed the poison in the wine risk being caught again?

Finally, Joffrey ate Tyrion's pie, we all know that, and if the strangler was used, a poison ment to simulate a choaking and remove concerns of murder, a pie seems like a more logical place to put the poison in, instead of a wine, something you can't choak on.

 

 

Which theory do you found more believable?

Also, it's fine if you don't agree with this theory, I'm not one hundred percent convinced by it (tho I think it orders of magnitud more likely than the other one), but I find it weird how everyone acts like it's a closed case when George made it purposely confusing, if George didn't mean for us to think about this, why did he make Joff et Tyrion's pie while drinking the wine? why did he make Tyrion dunk the wine? wouldn't it be more incriminating for a maester to test the wine and find trace amounts of the strangler on it? I don't think this last few bits prove Tyrion was the target, but they definitely prove George wanted us to consider the possibility, that why I find it weird when people act like what LF says is inquestionably true.

You didn't answer, which theory do you find more likely?

 

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I would be satisfied with this, not gonna lie.

after all, there are some clues pointing to Petyr being a greenseer.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

after all, there are some clues pointing to Petyr being a greenseer.

No, there aren’t.

[House Cambodia]

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

after all, there are some clues pointing to Petyr being a greenseer.

Maybe you mean greenfingers. Catlyn didn't fancy him because he always had one jammed up his nose.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, there aren’t.

LEt me be clear: I don't think he's a greenseer, I think the "evidence" is plainly considence, but you could make an argument for it: he's a small and weak guy (every song must have it's balance) and he has green eyes, he also spent some time bedridden, like Jojen and Bran, and there's this quote:

Quote

The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

From Eddard XV, AGOT. Which is way too simmilar to this quote:

Quote

“Urri!” he cried. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. His brother Urrigon was long dead, yet there he stood. One arm was black and swollen, stinking with maggots, but he was still Urri, still a boy, no older than the day he died.

“You know what waits below the sea, brother?”

“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.”

Urri shook his head. “Worms … worms await you, Aeron.”

When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

In which Euron is probably sending a dream to Aeron.

 

 

Again, I don't buy it, I think Petyr is small to give him a cool nickname, he is week because the story with Brandon would make great character motivation, his eyes are just green, and a lot of people spend time bedridden. The similarities between Ned's and Aeron's dream point to... them being written by the same author writing about simmilar circumpstances (an imprisoned, regret-filled guy having fevre dreams).

[Sandy Clegg]

55 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why not put the poison in his food and avoid both the possibility of someone else consuming it (or maybe it being dunked on the floor) and the possibility of Joff seeming to choak on wine after not eating anything.

The chances would have been zero that he doesn't eat at his own wedding. And as I said Margaery was there urging him to sit down. Where there was food. Plus, it's shown that the strangler works in wine. Not food, unless we just speculate.

And ... Joffrey did eat Tyrion's pie, so how does that fit your point? Whereas nobody but the king is going to drink from the king's own cup, making innocent bystanders deaths less likely. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Killing Tyrion is hard. If you are discovered, Tywin will have you killed, after all he went to war because he was kidnapped. And Tyrion is generally guarded by Bronn, Vale clansmen and Lannister guards.

Tyrion's status was much reduced after he wasn't Hand anymore, so I think this is overstating it. But sure, let's say LF and Olenna needed to poison him. Did he have a food taster at court? We never see him take precautions of this sort. So it seems an odd choice to do this so publicly, when any of his daily meals would seem easier to get to.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

You didn't answer, which theory do you find more likely?

 

Well, not everyone was drinking from Joffrey's cup, as you state, so that looks like a big flaw. Only Margaery was sharing that goblet, and once Olenna pops the poison in she can just steer her granddaughter away.

Tyrion could have been a target, I suppose. It's not impossible. And George does like to keep things murky. Joff pointing at Tyrion's pie seems to have people confused, and this is probably deliberate too. But the purple in the wine, and the known properties of the strangler poison, and Olenna learning that Joff is a monster .... all fit too neatly. If we find out from Olenna that Tyrion was the target, then that would be a big twist as GRRM doesn't lay any groundwork for it and it hasn't been mentioned since, two books later. And it's kind of at the point where it doesn't even matter, as Tyrion is half a world away.

It seems like this is wrapped up like the Catspaw dagger, but of course as GRRM hasn't provided a definitive confession then there will always be doubts. For me the big mystery is why Tyrion poured out the wine. We are never told why he does that, which is a little odd.

[CamiloRP]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The chances would have been zero that he doesn't eat at his own wedding. And as I said Margaery was there urging him to sit down. Where there was food. Plus, it's shown that the strangler works in wine. Not food, unless we just speculate.

I didn't mean he wouldn't eat at all, but what if he drunk the wine ten minutes after the last time he ate? What would've people thought he choaked on?

Also, if it dissolves in wine, it dissolves ins aliva or stomach acids, which are more corrosive, I said this before.

In fact, this is a quote from George:

Quote

and I think that's what the murderers here were hoping for—the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something.

They couldn't assume that if Joffrey wasn't eating when he died.

 

Quote

And ... Joffrey did eat Tyrion's pie, so how does that fit your point? Whereas nobody but the king is going to drink from the king's own cup, making innocent bystanders deaths less likely. 

Margeary drunk from it, why would you asume someone would eat Tyrion's pie? everyone has their own portion.

 

Quote

Tyrion's status was much reduced after he wasn't Hand anymore, so I think this is overstating it.

It doesn't matter, Tyrion wasn't hand when he was taken by Cat, and his father did go to war over that anyway. And he has guards around.

 

Quote

But sure, let's say LF and Olenna needed to poison him. Did he have a food taster at court? We never see him take precautions of this sort. So it seems an odd choice to do this so publicly, when any of his daily meals would seem easier to get to.

I already answered this in the previous message: LF did it during the wedding to create a distraction to sneak Sansa out. Same reason they supposedly kill Joffrey, who also doesn't have food testers and could've been poisoned during his daily meals by one of the many agents LF has at court (the kettleblacks for example). Are you even reading what I write? because I already said all of this in the previous post.

Also, to clarify: I don't think Olenna was part of the poisoning, be the target Tyrion or Joffrey, it makes no sense.

 

Quote

Well, not everyone was drinking from Joffrey's cup, as you state, so that looks like a big flaw. Only Margaery was sharing that goblet, and once Olenna pops the poison in she can just steer her granddaughter away.

And what if Joff insisted Margeary drunk from it, she refused and then Joff drunk and died? Wouldn't that make Marge look guilty as hell?

 

Quote

Tyrion could have been a target, I suppose. It's not impossible. And George does like to keep things murky. Joff pointing at Tyrion's pie seems to have people confused, and this is probably deliberate too. But the purple in the wine, and the known properties of the strangler poison, and Olenna learning that Joff is a monster .... all fit too neatly. If we find out from Olenna that Tyrion was the target, then that would be a big twist as GRRM doesn't lay any groundwork for it and it hasn't been mentioned since, two books later. And it's kind of at the point where it doesn't even matter, as Tyrion is half a world away.

Too neatly? What's neat about LF convincing Mace to wed Marge to Joff at the same time he convinces his mother to kill Joff? What's neat about Olenna trusting in Littlefinger? What's neat about Olenna involving a known liar, a drunken fool and a teenage girl in a regicide conspiracy if at the end she's just gonna do the poisoning herself, praying not to be seen in front of a thousand people?

Olenna learning that Joff is a monster is just a grandmother worried about her granddaughter, there's no need for murder. And the only clue Olenna was involved is her fixing Sansas net and the word of a known liar.

There has been a lot of groundwork layed for Tyrion being the intended victim: the fact that Petyr wants to wed Sansa, the fact that he likely tried to kill Tyrion before, the fact that Tyrion is a loose end Petyr should want to eliminate, the fact that Joffrey died from poisoning while eating Tyrion's food, the fact that Petyr has no reason for wanting Joffrey dead.

 

Quote

It seems like this is wrapped up like the Catspaw dagger, but of course as GRRM hasn't provided a definitive confession then there will always be doubts. For me the big mystery is why Tyrion poured out the wine. We are never told why he does that, which is a little odd.

I don't think it's wrapped up, and Geroge doesn't seem to think it is, he said:

Quote

I wanted to make it little bit unclear what exactly has happened here, make the readers work a little to try and figure out what has happened.

This couldn't be true if the definitive answer was revealed just a few chapters later, couldn't it?

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Same reason as Joffrey: Petyr could've sneaked some poison into Joffrey's food any other day, he owns a few of his guards, but he wanted the destraction and chaos it being at the wedding would provide, so he can steal Sansa.

Stealing Sansa is much harder if Tyrion is the target. She would be next to him at the wedding, and all eyes would be on her when he died. As well as some suspicion, followed by a cell perhaps. The king's death is a far bigger 'distraction moment' during which she can be whisked away.

Plus ... how do you reconcile the fact that Littlefinger knew Joffrey was dead before being told? The bells in King's Landing toll when Joff dies  ...

When both of them were safe aboard, the cowled man slid the blades into the water and put his back into the oars, rowing them out toward the channel. Behind them the bells were still tolling the boy king's death. They had the dark river all to themselves.

But by the time they reach the dark waters where Littlefinger's ship is waiting, these bells have long since faded away:

 The shore fell away, the fog grew thicker, the sound of the bells began to fade. Finally even the lights were gone, lost somewhere behind them. They were out in Blackwater Bay, and the world shrank to dark water, blowing mist, and their silent companion stooped over the oars. "How far must we go?" she asked.

"No talk." The oarsman was old, but stronger than he looked, and his voice was fierce. There was something oddly familiar about his face, though Sansa could not say what it was.

So the people on board had no way of knowing what transpired at the wedding. Yet on boarding the ship, their first conversation shows that LF already knows that Joff is dead:

"But he saved me."

"He sold you for a promise of ten thousand dragons. Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffrey's death. The gold cloaks will hunt, and the eunuch will jingle his purse.

No conversation occurs before this in which he was told this information, as Sansa was present the entire time.

Littlefinger conspired to have a king poisoned.

The Tyrells got a nice boy king to manipulate. 

Littlefinger got Sansa.

Tyrion was who Littlefinger hoped would take the fall, leaving Sansa unwed. And so he did. I don't really see how it works any other way.

 

[CamiloRP]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Stealing Sansa is much harder if Tyrion is the target. She would be next to him at the wedding, and all eyes would be on her when he died. As well as some suspicion, followed by a cell perhaps. The king's death is a far bigger 'distraction moment' during which she can be whisked away.

That's why the jousting dwarves were hired by Petyr, he wanted to create conflict between Tyrion and Joffrey, he's an expert manipulator after all. In fact: Joffrey died near Sansa and she managed to sneak out anyway.

 

Quote

Plus ... how do you reconcile the fact that Littlefinger knew Joffrey was dead before being told? The bells in King's Landing toll when Joff dies

You answered your own question... LF was probably in the city, he didn't just arived, he would've arived sooner, because if he was delayed Sansa would've been caught and his plans foiled.

 

Quote

The Tyrells got a nice boy king to manipulate. 

Wrong, they gain 6 more years of Cersei as regent, and Joffrey is easier to manipulate than Cersei.

 

Quote

Tyrion was who Littlefinger hoped would take the fall, leaving Sansa unwed. And so he did.

No... acording to George the murderers hoped people thought he choaked.

 

Quote

I don't really see how it works any other way.

This is because you ignore all the other thing's I said:

Why would the Tyrells trust in LF?

Why would Olenna involve all those unreliable people if she was going to do the deed herself?

What does Petyr gain from killing Joffrey, whom he can likely manipulate better than Tomen?

How would LF get to marry Sansa if people thought Joffrey choaked and Tyrion continue to live?

What if Margeary drunk from the wine and died?

What if Margeary refused to drink from the wine and Joff died, implicating her?

What are we supposed to "work a little to try and figure out" if the definitive answer is given to us a chapter later?

 

[Alester Florent]

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, if it dissolves in wine, it dissolves ins aliva or stomach acids, which are more corrosive, I said this before.

If you take a bite of a pie and there's a hard stone in it, you spit it out. You don't suck or swallow it such that it dissolves inside you. If it's already dissolved in wine, you just drink the wine.

[CamiloRP]

20 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

If you take a bite of a pie and there's a hard stone in it, you spit it out. You don't suck or swallow it such that it dissolves inside you. If it's already dissolved in wine, you just drink the wine.

It can be easily pulverized, with your hand, as LF shows

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You answered your own question... LF was probably in the city, he didn't just arived, he would've arived sooner, because if he was delayed Sansa would've been caught and his plans foiled.

I don't think you read everything I posted. He was in a ship way out in Blackwater Bay. Sansa rows and rows and rows long after the bells fade. Then they come upon Littlefinger's ship, which is too far out to hear or see anything of KL. The agent of LF who rows them there knows exactly where to go, so presumably his ship must have remained in that vicinity for some time, waiting for him. It's not like they have mobile phones to tell him where to go otherwise. He was waiting on that ship out of range of KL to be seen (or heard - because sound carries on water, as Sansa is told) all during Joffey's death. Which he knew about because he planned it. Sometimes the most logical solutions are the best.

As to him being in KL, then somehow magically speeding to a point out to sea. Why would Littlefinger risk being seen in KL when he is supposed to be in the Eyrie? The whole point of the plan is for him not to be anywhere near.

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

This is because you ignore all the other thing's I said:

I don't see the Tyrells and LF's relationship as being based on trust. It's based on the fact that neither can frame the other, due to Sansa. Tyrells can use Sansa as a fall guy if LF decides to rat them out - the hairnet is proof of her involvement, and Sansa is valuable enough to LF that it is more worthwhile for him to play along than betray the Tyrells.

Likewise if the Tyrells decide to rat on LF for some reason, he can claim he was nowhere near KL at the time and anyway has no motive. They both get assurances of the other's compliance with the plan, but it's never out of something so flimsy as 'trust'.

Well, I can't really get into this any more. The accepted version just seems watertight, and has more or less been confirmed by GRRM. Check out this thread if you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it. 

[CamiloRP]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I don't think you read everything I posted. He was in a ship way out in Blackwater Bay. Sansa rows and rows and rows long after the bells fade. Then they come upon Littlefinger's ship, which is too far out to hear or see anything of KL. The agent of LF who rows them there knows exactly where to go, so presumably his ship must have remained in that vicinity for some time, waiting for him. It's not like they have mobile phones to tell him where to go otherwise. He was waiting on that ship out of range of KL to be seen (or heard - because sound carries on water, as Sansa is told) all during Joffey's death. Which he knew about because he planned it.

But he was there... He wouldn't miss a chance to catch up with his minions, and give them new instructions. It would be easy for him to get to the city unnotices, with the exception of Varys and Jaquen, no one is better equiped than him. Even Arya and Barristan managed to stay in KL unnoticed.

 

Quote

Sometimes the most logical solutions are the best.

I agree. There's no logic in LF killing Joff, and no logic in him teaming up with the Tyrells.

 

Quote

As to him being in KL, then somehow magically speeding to a point out to sea. Why would Littlefinger risk being seen in KL when he is supposed to be in the Eyrie? The whole point of the plan is for him not to be anywhere near.

But... he was near. And he wasn't cought.

 

Quote

I don't see the Tyrells and LF's relationship as being based on trust. It's based on the fact that neither can frame the other, due to Sansa. Tyrells can use Sansa as a fall guy if LF decides to rat them out - the hairnet is proof of her involvement, and Sansa is valuable enough to LF that it is more worthwhile for him to play along than betray the Tyrells.

Why would the Tyrells think Sansa is important to LF? In fact, her involvement in the murder points to the Tyrells: the ones who met with her several times and used tricks to not be spied on while talking to her. LF only talked to Sansa once, briefly, over a year ago.

 

Quote

Likewise if the Tyrells decide to rat on LF for some reason, he can claim he was nowhere near KL at the time and anyway has no motive. They both get assurances of the other's compliance with the plan, but it's never out of something so flimsy as 'trust'.

But there's no reason for LF to get involved with the Tyrells and for the Tyrells to get involved with LF, they didn't need eachother.

 

Quote

Well, I can't really get into this any more. The accepted version just seems watertight, and has more or less been confirmed by GRRM. Check out this thread if you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it. 

It's so watertight you haven't been able to respond to most of my arguments...

Also George doens't think it to be water tight.

Edited April 3 by CamiloRP

[kissdbyfire]

41 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Also George doens't think it to be water tight.

How do you reckon?