Would Robert have married Lyanna even if she had already been "used" by Rhaegar?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

36 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert is rash and temperamental and wants to get his way.  I think there's a good chance he would because he wanted to. 

'Look at me, the king who eats leftovers.'  It just wouldn't fly. There's more at stake than Robert's personal wishes and if no one else did, at least Jon Arryn still had his eye on the prize. The fact that Robert made himself look ridiculous by the time the boar got him doesn't mean that he set out to look ridiculous or set out willing to be seen as ridiculous. Honestly, I think he'd be more likely to Victarion her than marry her, but again, the people around him would have saved him from that bad choice.

If he did marry Lyanna, he would have to wait a good long time to have a child with her, so moon tea every morning for a year or so. Half the kingdom would be laughing at the usurper who put his enemy's son on the throne if there was even the hint that their kid could have been Rhaegar's.  it's all too messy. Lyanna would have to be disqualified. 

 

[the trees have eyes]

20 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

'Look at me, the king who eats leftovers.'  It just wouldn't fly. There's more at stake than Robert's personal wishes and if no one else did, at least Jon Arryn still had his eye on the prize. The fact that Robert made himself look ridiculous by the time the boar got him doesn't mean that he set out to look ridiculous or set out willing to be seen as ridiculous. Honestly, I think he'd be more likely to Victarion her than marry her, but again, the people around him would have saved him from that bad choice.

If he did marry Lyanna, he would have to wait a good long time to have a child with her, so moon tea every morning for a year or so. Half the kingdom would be laughing at the usurper who put his enemy's son on the throne if there was even the hint that their kid could have been Rhaegar's.  it's all too messy. Lyanna would have to be disqualified. 

 

Well, you can think what you want but "it just wouldn't fly" is conjecture.  There is indeed more at stake than Robert's personal wishes as I pointed out (and others have) in terms of the marriage alliance binding the North to Robert's regime more effectively.

As to the bolded, this again ignores the OP (the opening statement is literally "Lets imagine that it really was a kidnapping" - at least I hope you're overlooking it) as well as the fact (pointed out in this thread as well) that the first thing Robert did on reaching WF, fifteen years after her death, was visit Lyanna's resting place in the crypts.  This is not to mention the obvious problem of Ned and Robert's relationship coming crashing down with Robert's murder of his sister and the dubious prospect of the Stark-Tully-Arryns, all joined by marriage, deciding to back the Barratheons after this.

Jeyne Westerling is to be barred from marrying for a year or more iirc, but she is not barred from marrying.  Robert would indeed be prudent (or well-advised) to wait a year before marrying Lyanna.

But there's no meaningful discussion to be had here if we are talking about different circumstances.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

18 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert would indeed be prudent (or well-advised) to wait a year before marrying Lyanna.

Robert could be known as the King Who Jacks Off while he waits.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

On 1/27/2024 at 12:13 AM, Odej said:

I always thought that under normal circumstances Robert and Lyanna's marriage would have been a disaster. If he married her despite the rape I believe this would become the elephant in the room of the relationship and the marriage would disintegrate even faster. But to get to this we return to the initial question, would he marry her?

I think it might even have strengthened their relationship. It would show that Robert is really commited to Lyanna, despite what she´s been through.

And for the societies concerns "She´s not a maiden." King Robert would have given a "FU, get out of my castle." 

 

[BlackLightning]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:13 PM, Odej said:

Let's imagine that it really was a kidnapping, Lyanna spent months being raped, she became pregnant, her son didn't survive, she didn't die, the rebellion won the war and she was rescued. It wasn't her fault, but she was no longer a maiden. Would Robert go through with the commitment?

The obvious answer seems to be yes. After all, the guy fought a war to get her back after the apparent kidnapping and Robert didn't think Rhaegar was playing cyvasse with her.

BUT, Robert was a proud man and above all, a noble man in a society where a lady's maidenhood was an asset. Would his passion for her overcome that? Would he get over knowing the man he hated had taken her before him? In the World of Ice and Fire, Maester Pycelle doubts that Tywin would have married Joanna if she were the remains of another man, in this case Aerys.

I always thought that under normal circumstances Robert and Lyanna's marriage would have been a disaster. If he married her despite the rape I believe this would become the elephant in the room of the relationship and the marriage would disintegrate even faster. But to get to this we return to the initial question, would he marry her?

Yes. Absolutely.

Especially in the scenario in which Lyanna's son dies.

That said, I do think Jon Arryn would've politely made arrangements for the wedding to take place a year after Lyanna's rescue.

A Baratheon/Stark marriage means that the North is far more involved in the governance of the realm for far longer...which means that the institution of the Night's Watch is more respectfully regarded and treated to an ample supply of men and equipment. The situations with the Others or the Free Folk don't change but the Watch is in a much better position to defend the realm.

That said, I do think that the two of them would have had some serious marital problems down the road that the likes of Varys and Littlefinger would've been all too happy to exploit; especially Littlefinger given that he holds a grudge against the Starks. Not only is Robert's shamelessly adulterous nature innate (Lyanna called it before the betrothal) but there's a good chance that it would worsen over the years as the wound to Robert's pride sinks in. And to be honest, anyone of Robert's enemies and Targaryen sympathizers in the realm and across the world would likely rub it in his face.

However, Lyanna is not Cersei so at least Robert has legitimate heirs and a respectable queen who would enjoy going on hunts with him...so he's probably in a much better headspace for the latter part of his life. That said, if the rumors and predictions about Lyanna are true, I can see the two of them fighting like cats and dogs and a big fallout between Ned and Robert. I can even see Lyanna, Robert, Ned or all three getting hurt or killed as a consequence of this fallout...

 

I do think that with this scenario, everyone in this thread has forgotten a few things. The first thing they have forgotten is that good ole rotten Lannister ambition, particularly that of Tywin and Cersei. The second thing that they have forgotten about is Stannis.

Because Robert would still be "indebted" to Tywin, he'd be pressured to appease him. Ever the scumbag, Tywin (and Cersei) would certainly make a play for both Lyanna's disenfranchisement and Robert's hand in marriage. I personally don't see Robert budging but such activities would undoubtedly piss off Robert, Hoster Tully, the Starks and Dorne. However, given that Tywin would be too powerful to offend and given the fact that Robert cannot end his betrothal to Lyanna without betraying the entire premise of his whole rebellion and instigating another...this means Robert is going to have to give Stannis the full Crown Prince treatment and make him marry Cersei.

Yikes.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Because Robert would still be "indebted" to Tywin, he'd be pressured to appease him. Ever the scumbag, Tywin (and Cersei) would certainly make a play for both Lyanna's disenfranchisement and Robert's hand in marriage. I personally don't see Robert budging but such activities would undoubtedly piss off Robert, Hoster Tully, the Starks and Dorne. However, given that Tywin would be too powerful to offend and given the fact that Robert cannot end his betrothal to Lyanna without betraying the entire premise of his whole rebellion and instigating another...this means Robert is going to have to give Stannis the full Crown Prince treatment and make him marry Cersei.

Again,  a King being indebted in the middle ages is not at all the same as a King being indebted in the modern eras.

Even in canon, the influence the Lannisters had over Robert had little to do with the money owed to them and everything to do with Cersei whispering in his ear.

 

 

On 1/31/2024 at 8:39 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

It just wouldn't fly. 

It'd certainly would if Robert wanted it to.

And as he himself states, he'd marry Lyanna if she came back alive. Robert was well aware of Lyanna... not being a virgin anymore, he still intended to marry her.

 

[Lady Winter Rose]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

It'd certainly would if Robert wanted it to.

I think what aejohn wants to say, he wouldn't want to. He loved her all these years, yes he did. But she conveniently died just at right moment. I think situation where she lived would be whole different story. We're talking about guy who had Myra while Lyanna was still alive and who probably would continue to cheat. Plus that Barra's mother who was apparently so young and was a maiden.

But he did wage a war to get her. So I think it would look bad if he didn't marry her and it would look bad if he did marry her.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

I think what aejohn wants to say, he wouldn't want to.

But we know for a fact he'd want to.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

I think situation where she lived would be whole different story.

Well yeah,  I'm not arguing they'd be happy or either of them wouldn't regret their marriage yadda yadda yadda.

But that Robert first instinct would be to marry Lyanna.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

and it would look bad if he did marry her.

I don't think so.

In fact this sentiment is held only by the Ironborn.

Westerosi men do not look kindly to non virgin women but being abused, being the catalyst of a dynasty ending civil war gives Lyanna far more leeway.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

17 hours ago, frenin said:

It'd certainly would if Robert wanted it to

Yeah, totally. I completely forget sometimes that love conquers all. Of course they'd marry.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yeah, totally. I completely forget sometimes that love conquers all. Of course they'd marry.

In this case yeah, given that it's up to Robert to make the final call and he had his mind set.

[Alden Rothack]

On 2/2/2024 at 8:42 PM, frenin said:

In this case yeah, given that it's up to Robert to make the final call and he had his mind set.

Politically he pisses off either the Stark-Tully-Arryn camp or the Lannisters and the Lannisters also want their heir back, He releases Jaime and the Lannisters will be happy to wait until his regime implodes for other reasons before coming back and making their play

There is one reason Robert would agree to set aside the bethrol, if he is told that Lyanna cannot have more children then she cannot be Queen no matter how much he loves her, it doesn't have to be the truth but he does have to believe it.

[frenin]

57 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

the Lannisters

Frankly, Tywin did not do what he did expecting a royal marriage or Jaime being released from his vows, which was unprecedent at the time.

He simply wanted to be on the winners' side.

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Frankly, Tywin did not do what he did expecting a royal marriage or Jaime being released from his vows, which was unprecedent at the time.

He simply wanted to be on the winners' side.

Yes and I think getting Jaime would have made him as firm an ally of Roberts as he was capable of being

[frenin]

50 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Yes and I think getting Jaime would have made him as firm an ally of Roberts as he was capable of being

Sure but getting Jaime was a miracle, especially after he became  the Kingslayer, it was not going to happen and i doubt he even asked for it. Jaime not being executed or send to the wall seems like a big win as it is.

[Alden Rothack]

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sure but getting Jaime was a miracle, especially after he became  the Kingslayer, it was not going to happen and i doubt he even asked for it. Jaime not being executed or send to the wall seems like a big win as it is.

I agree but he needs to go somewhere and getting him away from Kingslanding is a good idea

[Alester Florent]

Tywin's position at the end of the Rebellion is more precarious than probably at any stage since he became Lord of Casterly Rock. This isn't the Tywin of the end of Robert's reign or the start of the WotFK, who in the words of the show is "probably the most powerful man in the kingdom" (an overstatement perhaps, but not much of one). This is a man desperate to try to win Robert's favour.

He's tied up in the Targaryen regime by association, but he's also been the only great lord not to take sides in the war. He has, by all appearances, been dithering, waiting to see who won. Even the Ironborn pitched in. So he doesn't have any friends on the rebel side, but if Robert turns on him, it's hard to imagine that the loyalists would come to his aid either given that he hadn't committed his forces sooner. He is vulnerable and needs the new king's favour.

This is surely why he turns on Aerys when he does, i.e. when he recognises that the war is lost for the loyalists and that their best hope (Rhaegar) is dead anyway. And in particular it's why - as indeed he tells Tyrion - he ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's family. Tywin is a ruthless, pragmatic, man, but I don't think we can assume this was easy for him. Although Aerys had done his best to push him away, he and Tywin were friends. Tywin is not a man who had many friends, but Aerys was one of them, and Tywin had served him loyally and well even as Aerys heaped indignity upon him. He seems to have liked and admired Rhaegar, too. It may be that the reason he hung back and didn't join Robert sooner (at a point when his contribution would surely have been decisive) was because of his personal reluctance to turn on the people he still on some level had an emotional connection to. And if it wasn't that, then the fact that Jaime was an effective hostage of Aerys's can't have helpd, and he'll have known that attacking King's Landing had a good chance of killing his favourite child. Ordering the attack on King's Landing was probably the hardest decision Tywin ever made, and he does it because he's desperate.

Cersei becomes queen because Jon Arryn thinks a marriage alliance with the Lannisters will be helpful to shore up the new regime and Cersei is by far the best eligible bride available (there are no women of appropriate age available from the senior branches of any of the other great houses). But Tywin can have no expectation of Robert marrying Cersei, and if Robert marries someone else instead, Tywin can and will do squat. He'll still be lucky that Robert doesn't take Jaime's head and possibly his own.

[Alden Rothack]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Tywin's position at the end of the Rebellion is more precarious than probably at any stage since he became Lord of Casterly Rock. This isn't the Tywin of the end of Robert's reign or the start of the WotFK, who in the words of the show is "probably the most powerful man in the kingdom" (an overstatement perhaps, but not much of one). This is a man desperate to try to win Robert's favour.

He's tied up in the Targaryen regime by association, but he's also been the only great lord not to take sides in the war. He has, by all appearances, been dithering, waiting to see who won. Even the Ironborn pitched in. So he doesn't have any friends on the rebel side, but if Robert turns on him, it's hard to imagine that the loyalists would come to his aid either given that he hadn't committed his forces sooner. He is vulnerable and needs the new king's favour.

This is surely why he turns on Aerys when he does, i.e. when he recognises that the war is lost for the loyalists and that their best hope (Rhaegar) is dead anyway. And in particular it's why - as indeed he tells Tyrion - he ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's family. Tywin is a ruthless, pragmatic, man, but I don't think we can assume this was easy for him. Although Aerys had done his best to push him away, he and Tywin were friends. Tywin is not a man who had many friends, but Aerys was one of them, and Tywin had served him loyally and well even as Aerys heaped indignity upon him. He seems to have liked and admired Rhaegar, too. It may be that the reason he hung back and didn't join Robert sooner (at a point when his contribution would surely have been decisive) was because of his personal reluctance to turn on the people he still on some level had an emotional connection to. And if it wasn't that, then the fact that Jaime was an effective hostage of Aerys's can't have helpd, and he'll have known that attacking King's Landing had a good chance of killing his favourite child. Ordering the attack on King's Landing was probably the hardest decision Tywin ever made, and he does it because he's desperate.

Cersei becomes queen because Jon Arryn thinks a marriage alliance with the Lannisters will be helpful to shore up the new regime and Cersei is by far the best eligible bride available (there are no women of appropriate age available from the senior branches of any of the other great houses). But Tywin can have no expectation of Robert marrying Cersei, and if Robert marries someone else instead, Tywin can and will do squat. He'll still be lucky that Robert doesn't take Jaime's head and possibly his own.

Yes he is, that doesn't mean Robert won't give Jaime back to him though he would have to have a very good reason, such a reason does exist if Jaime can be made to admit to it

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Tywin's position at the end of the Rebellion is more precarious than probably at any stage since he became Lord of Casterly Rock. This isn't the Tywin of the end of Robert's reign or the start of the WotFK, who in the words of the show is "probably the most powerful man in the kingdom" (an overstatement perhaps, but not much of one). This is a man desperate to try to win Robert's favour.

He's tied up in the Targaryen regime by association, but he's also been the only great lord not to take sides in the war. He has, by all appearances, been dithering, waiting to see who won. Even the Ironborn pitched in. So he doesn't have any friends on the rebel side, but if Robert turns on him, it's hard to imagine that the loyalists would come to his aid either given that he hadn't committed his forces sooner. He is vulnerable and needs the new king's favour.

This is surely why he turns on Aerys when he does, i.e. when he recognises that the war is lost for the loyalists and that their best hope (Rhaegar) is dead anyway. And in particular it's why - as indeed he tells Tyrion - he ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's family. Tywin is a ruthless, pragmatic, man, but I don't think we can assume this was easy for him. Although Aerys had done his best to push him away, he and Tywin were friends. Tywin is not a man who had many friends, but Aerys was one of them, and Tywin had served him loyally and well even as Aerys heaped indignity upon him. He seems to have liked and admired Rhaegar, too. It may be that the reason he hung back and didn't join Robert sooner (at a point when his contribution would surely have been decisive) was because of his personal reluctance to turn on the people he still on some level had an emotional connection to. And if it wasn't that, then the fact that Jaime was an effective hostage of Aerys's can't have helpd, and he'll have known that attacking King's Landing had a good chance of killing his favourite child. Ordering the attack on King's Landing was probably the hardest decision Tywin ever made, and he does it because he's desperate.

Cersei becomes queen because Jon Arryn thinks a marriage alliance with the Lannisters will be helpful to shore up the new regime and Cersei is by far the best eligible bride available (there are no women of appropriate age available from the senior branches of any of the other great houses). But Tywin can have no expectation of Robert marrying Cersei, and if Robert marries someone else instead, Tywin can and will do squat. He'll still be lucky that Robert doesn't take Jaime's head and possibly his own.

Actually, I think Oberyn had the right of it, when he attributed the murder of Elia and her children to Tywin’s bearing a grudge.  He’s an extremely vindictive man.

Unless he’d already put out peace feelers to the rebels, and had been given the nod, he could not know that Robert would welcome their deaths, rather than act like Cregan Stark, and condemn men who had murdered royalty, and who were Robert’s own relatives.

As for Jaime, we know that Tywin was willing to write him off, in TWOT5K.

Edited February 5 by SeanF

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:13 PM, Odej said:

Let's imagine that it really was a kidnapping, Lyanna spent months being raped, she became pregnant, her son didn't survive, she didn't die, the rebellion won the war and she was rescued. It wasn't her fault, but she was no longer a maiden. Would Robert go through with the commitment?

The obvious answer seems to be yes. After all, the guy fought a war to get her back after the apparent kidnapping and Robert didn't think Rhaegar was playing cyvasse with her.

BUT, Robert was a proud man and above all, a noble man in a society where a lady's maidenhood was an asset. Would his passion for her overcome that? Would he get over knowing the man he hated had taken her before him? In the World of Ice and Fire, Maester Pycelle doubts that Tywin would have married Joanna if she were the remains of another man, in this case Aerys.

I always thought that under normal circumstances Robert and Lyanna's marriage would have been a disaster. If he married her despite the rape I believe this would become the elephant in the room of the relationship and the marriage would disintegrate even faster. But to get to this we return to the initial question, would he marry her?

Yes .