Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said: What I'm getting from Ty and Scot is that it's stupid and wrong to voice dissent with Joe Biden on anything I have no problem with voicing dissent. I’m saying voting in a way that demonstrates Biden is weak is much more dangerous than simply voicing discontent with Biden. Jaxom 1974 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I have no problem with voicing dissent. I’m saying voting in a way that demonstrates Biden is weak is much more dangerous than simply voicing discontent with Biden. I do not agree with that at all. The only vote that matters is the general. He's essentially running unopposed in the primary. These aren't votes for whatever Kennedy failson is out there. Why even fucking have primaries? Why not just let the parties pick the candidate [if] you're so scared about the perception of weakness? Eta: maybe it's not "voting in a way that demonstrates Biden is weak", maybe it's "Biden is and always has been a weak candidate but some people are blind to it and would rather scapegoat voters than hold the president to any kind of scrutiny". Edited February 28 by Larry of the Lawn kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Larry of the Lawn said: Why even fucking have primaries? Why not just let the parties pick the candidate of you're so scared about the perception of weakness? I have disliked Primaries and the State paying to facilitate private organizations picking candidates for general elections for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I have no problem with voicing dissent. I’m saying voting in a way that demonstrates Biden is weak is much more dangerous than simply voicing discontent with Biden. But the Michigan primary didn’t do that, did it? It showed there’s a portion of the state’s electorate that are not happy but at the same time he won “bigly” w/ 80%+ of the votes. In fact, according to msnbc he won bigger than mango won the republican primary - by ~ 69%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 (edited) 7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: But the Michigan primary didn’t do that, did it? It showed there’s a portion of the state’s electorate that are not happy but at the same time he won “bigly” w/ 80%+ of the votes. In fact, according to msnbc he won bigger than mango won the republican primary - by ~ 69%. And a sizable chunk of the highly localized demographic in Michigan (Muslim American Voters)(a tight margin swing state) either sitting out or switching to Trump could flip Michigan to Trump. It creates the perception of “electoral opportunities” for Trump. We don’t want that perception to exist. Further, As @mormont points out there is also an electoral cost to Biden not offering support to Israel… even though I agree he should oppose Netanyahu’s Government actions in my earnest opinion. [eta] It could also give perceived weight to Trump’s inevitable lies about having “won” Michigan if he loses. Edited February 28 by Ser Scot A Ellison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) Wasn't there also a 10-11% uncommitted vote in Michigan's primary back in 2012 with Obama on the ballot? I don't think the 13% uncommitted in Michigan in 2024 is going to seriously hurt Biden in the general - I expect that the vast majority of those who voted uncommitted will vote for Biden over Trump in the general. Edited February 28 by Consigliere Larry of the Lawn, mormont and Kyoshi 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, Consigliere said: Wasn't there also a 10-11% uncommitted vote in Michigan's primary back in 2012 with Obama on the ballot? I don't think the 13% uncommitted in Michigan in 2024 is going to seriously hurt Biden in the general - I expect that the vast majority of those who voted uncommitted will vote for Biden over Trump in the general. I hope you are correct. Prince of the North 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I have disliked Primaries and the State paying to facilitate private organizations picking candidates for general elections for quite some time. Is your dislike for primaries because of the state funding? Or is it something else? Curious because iirc you were saying recently that you think people should be able to vote in multiple primaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said: Is your dislike for primaries because of the state funding? Or is it something else? Curious because iirc you were saying recently that you think people should be able to vote in multiple primaries. I think it reinforces the existing “two party” structure. It creates the percolation that the only “real” candidates are those who were tested and won primaries when that isn’t the case. If primaries are going to exist anyway… I do think registered voters should be able to vote in all primaries being run by the State. Edited February 28 by Ser Scot A Ellison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And a sizable chunk of the highly localized demographic in Michigan (Muslim American Voters)(a tight margin swing state) either sitting out or switching to Trump could flip Michigan to Trump. It creates the perception of “electoral opportunities” for Trump. Does it really though? Almost 27% voted for Haley. Is it unbelievable to think that at least some of those voters are diehard anti-Trumpers? Against the 80% Biden got, I don’t know if this perception isn’t a bit of an overreaction. 5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: We don’t want that perception to exist. I see. Don’t you think that sounds a wee bit fashy? 5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Further, As @mormont points out there is also an electoral cost to Biden not offering support to Israel… even though I agree he should oppose Netanyahu’s Government actions in my earnest opinion. No one can deny it’s a tough balancing act but perhaps part of the problem is that some voters are not really seeing any/much effort to actually balance it at all. I’m no political consultant but maybe going on late night shows to claim you’re a diehard Zionist is not the smartest strategy given the moment. Ser Scot A Ellison and Larry of the Lawn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 18 minutes ago, mormont said: I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I just think there's a narrative sometimes that suggests that a switch on this issue would be net positive for Biden, that fails to understand there's a cost to him electorally that is bound to be part of the explanation of why he isn't moving as far and as fast as they would like. I think this "from the river to the sea" folks fail to understand that most Americans really don't know much about this issue--hell, I'd argue that most of the protestors don't know, either. I remember going cross-eyed reading a summary of Israeli history, and it was then I realized that nothing about that situation is simple. But if you are of a certain mindset, you think it's all cut and dried, and you cannot understand how anyone could think otherwise. Well, lots of people do...if they think about it at all. Biden is trying to walk a tightrope here, and pretending that rope isn't there doesn't mean Biden can't fall from it. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I think it reinforces the existing “two party” structure. It creates the percolation that the only “real” candidates are those who were tested and won primaries when that isn’t the case. Gotcha. What's the alternative? I'd imagine that if we didn't have publicly funded primaries we wouldn't all be able to vote in primaries, or they would be a total farce. I'm pretty sure both parties would just rig the voting, or only allow select people to vote, or whatever makes the donors/ party higher ups happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: I see. Don’t you think that sounds a wee bit fashy? Not wanting a perception to exist and legally restraining such actions are not the same things. The latter is absolutely “faschy”. The former is merely aspirational. kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Are you cool with holding all Israelis personally responsible for everything the Likud government of Israel is doing as this individual appears to have endorsed? I always thought “collective punishment” was a bad thing… is that no longet the case? I don't know if you're reading any of my posts, and I'm honestly genuinely confused by this response. I have no idea what's happening right now. So I'm just going to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said: Gotcha. What's the alternative? I'd imagine that if we didn't have publicly funded primaries we wouldn't all be able to vote in primaries, or they would be a total farce. I'm pretty sure both parties would just rig the voting, or only allow select people to vote, or whatever makes the donors/ party higher ups happy. Honestly… let parties pick their candidates however they want to. Don’t lend the perception of legitimacy that comes from State run elections to private political parties… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Not wanting a perception to exist and legally restraining such actions are not the same things. The latter is absolutely “faschy”. The former is merely aspirational. Aspirationally faschy? Joking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Kyoshi said: I don't know if you're reading any of my posts, and I'm honestly genuinely confused by this response. I have no idea what's happening right now. So I'm just going to move on. I’m asking you a question because I don’t know the answer to that question. The man who immolated himself stated online that there are no civilians in Israel. I’m asking if you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said: Biden is trying to walk a tightrope here, and pretending that rope isn't there doesn't mean Biden can't fall from it. Totally agree. I've said before that this issue is basically no-win for Biden. Either he supports Israel and pisses off leftists and Arab-Americans or he supports the Palestinians and pisses off the (larger) portion of the electorate that is broadly supportive of Israel. Biden has been trying to walk a tightrope between the two that is basically 85% pro-Israel, and thus far it isn't working. I am very much hoping that the Biden administration and the international community at large can convince the Israelis to agree to a ceasefire, conditions will improve in Gaza and Biden can move past this issue by November. That seems possible, but by no means certain. Prince of the North, Ser Scot A Ellison and Ormond 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: Aspirationally faschy? Joking! Booooo… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Maithanet said: working. I am very much hoping that the Biden administration and the international community at large can convince the Israelis to agree to a ceasefire, conditions will improve in Gaza and Biden can move past this issue by November. That seems possible, but by no means certain. Why would Netanyahu do anything that didn’t give aid and comfort to his fellow dictatorial aspirational buddy… Trump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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