US Politics: The sides have gotten… weird

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I'm not saying he can't win.  I'm saying that voting uncommitted and criticizing Biden on Gaza do not hell Trump.  These are things in people's minds and of you sweep it under the rug or try to crush it it's not going to go away.  I'm saying that crushing public discourse and the democratic process is certainly not going to help. 

Adding on to this, to a portion of the Democratic Party, support for Gaza is not a minor issue.  They are angry that the US and their tax dollars are supporting a genocide.  I am one of them, I am angry about this.  For some people, the fact that Trump would be even worse on Israeli issues is not enough, because they are angry that their only choices are "terrible on Gaza" and "even worse on Gaza".  Biden and the WH NEED to have something to say to those voters.  Even if it's only messaging, they need to work harder to get that message out. 

I remain cautiously optimistic that they can do this, and that by November, this issue will not be the huge problem it is right now.  But thus far the WH messaging isn't working and the sooner they hear that and adjust, the better.  This helps Biden win.  Just staying silent and hoping for the best is a losing strategy. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I remain cautiously optimistic that they can do this, and that by November, this issue will not be the huge problem it is right now.  But thus far the WH messaging isn't working and the sooner they hear that and adjust, the better.  This helps Biden win.  Just staying silent and hoping for the best is a losing strategy. 

So… Biden changing his position on Israel (which I personally support) will not impact the majority of Democratic Voters who want him to support Israel?

[Maithanet]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So… Biden changing his position on Israel (which I personally support) will not impact the majority of Democratic Voters who want him to support Israel?

I explicitly said that it could be just a matter of messaging rather than a full on position change.  But do something to convince Democratic voters that care about Gaza that Biden cares too. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So… Biden changing his position on Israel (which I personally support) will not impact the majority of Democratic Voters who want him to support Israel?

I don’t think it’s about changing his position as much as it is reaching out and messaging those who oppose his position more positively and effectively. At least that’s how I understood it.

[Gorn]

17 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But that argument cuts both ways.  I don't see what the big deal is that 13% of democratic primary voters wanted to express their political opinion.  Perhaps the DNC and Biden can devote more resources to communicating with them about why they should vote for Biden in November.  It's a helluva lot better to get a signal where you stand now than Nov 5. 

Of course, that's what primaries are for.

However, 81% of Democrats in Michigan have signaled that they either support Biden's actions on Gaza, or don't care. And he cannot please the 13% without turning the 81% (or at least a significant part of them) against him. It's literally a zero-sum situation.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So… Biden changing his position on Israel (which I personally support) will not impact the majority of Democratic Voters who want him to support Israel?

No one is asking Biden to arm Hamas.  This would be a start:

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Biden and the WH NEED to have something to say to those voters.  Even if it's only messaging, they need to work harder to get that message out. 

Maybe the MI results will make him address this. 

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Hmmm said:

The main problem as I see it is a broader tendency on both the left and the right wing to not hold a firm line against extremism and entryism any longer.

Is being against the genocide of palestinians an extreme leftwing viewpoint?

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Of course, that's what primaries are for.

However, 81% of Democrats in Michigan have signaled that they either support Biden's actions on Gaza, or don't care. And he cannot please the 13% without turning the 81% (or at least a significant part of them) against him. It's literally a zero-sum situation.

I don't think it's that zero sum of a situation.  That assumes that all those Biden votes are going to change over this one issue.

Something like 70% of MI Dem voters support a ceasefire.  A bunch just voted for Biden anyway.  

 

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Gorn said:

However, 81% of Democrats in Michigan have signaled that they either support Biden's actions on Gaza, or don't care. And he cannot please the 13% without turning the 81% (or at least a significant part of them) against him. It's literally a zero-sum situation.

Politicians bring together disparate groups under one big tent all the time, it is one of their most important jobs.  Environmentalists and unions have very little in common, and quite often find themselves on opposite ends of issues.  But they're still part of the Democratic tent, because Democrats listen to their concerns and assuage them as best they can. 

It isn't always easy, and in the case of Israel-Gaza it is really difficult.  I have commented multiple times in these threads that Biden is in basically a no-win situation where no matter what, some people are going to be unhappy.  But it is good to know which prospective Democratic voters are unhappy and why, so that the DNC and WH can do what they can to at least make those people feel heard.  It might be only a slight change in messaging or policy that makes the difference between "I don't like this, but I accept I need to vote for Biden anyway" and "I cannot go along with this". 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I think you give people too little credit.  People don't like to be treated like they're stupid.  Some are, some aren't.  This is something Trump gets that a lot of DC types don't understand.  I think it's a mistake to underestimate people.  Just because you don't understand the reasoning doesn't mean it's stupid or dumb.  

Work in the field and find out lol. Most people don't know anything and would fail a civics test on the spot. The annoying part is trying not to point that out while trying to convince them to support something. And you'd be shock at how many lawyers and doctors don't know much either. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Is being against the genocide of palestinians an extreme leftwing viewpoint?

If doing so is an endorsement of indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians or claiming their are no Israeli civilians… then yes.

Edited February 28 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Gorn]

Edit: nvm

Edited February 28 by Gorn

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Does it really though? Almost 27% voted for Haley. Is it unbelievable to think that at least some of those voters are diehard anti-Trumpers? Against the 80% Biden got, I don’t know if this perception isn’t a bit of an overreaction. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But that argument cuts both ways.  I don't see what the big deal is that 13% of democratic primary voters wanted to express their political opinion.  Perhaps the DNC and Biden can devote more resources to communicating with them about why they should vote for Biden in November.  It's a helluva lot better to get a signal where you stand now than Nov 5. 

 

Everyone seems to want to ignore one very important factor in all of this over the 13% and how most should be coming back to the fold come November (I hope that's right): The media in the United States has failed, and chosen (for the most part) to continue to fail, the American people. Instead of spending a disproportionate amount of time, let alone an equal amount, on the math that is the Republican Primary results, in MI as well as SC and Iowa, etc...and how those numbers should be panicking the Republicans, were deluged with, "Why this is Bad for Biden".  And it's that narrative that helps Trump and the Republicans come November.  Because the media needs to make this a horse race, rather than simply focusing on the facts that Trump is a hefty albatross around the neck of the party that should be making it impossible for Republicans to get reelected.

So yeah, use that meaningless primary vote to express your distaste for this media, and social media, fueled perception that Biden hasn't done, and isn't doing anything, about Gaza.  The media is going to focus on the part that isn't supposed to matter, but it'll make for better ratings.  And that's going to be what helps Trump in November because people are going to become sour and stay home.

And if you think a man like Biden doesn't want to do more but is hamstrung by the overall politics of the entire situation, then not sure what you want to hear.  Yes, he needs to be a little more public about what's going on behind the scenes, but at the same time, simply pulling the funding from Israel will only serve to destabilize that entire region even faster.

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Work in the field and find out lol. Most people don't know anything and would fail a civics test on the spot. The annoying part is trying not to point that out while trying to convince them to support something. And you'd be shock at how many lawyers and doctors don't know much either. 

We've been over this before, and yes, I am fully aware of your disdain for, and your low opinion of, the hoi polloi.  There's a difference between being informed and being stupid, between education and intelligence.  I think you give people too little credit.  You under estimate them at your own peril.  

Imo most politicians treat people like fucking idiots and people don't appreciate that.  And as you acknowledge, it is transparent.  It might be annoying for you, it's insulting the people you're talking to, and they aren't stupid.  They just haven't made a hobby out politics (which is the arguably the saner route to go).  

 

6 minutes ago, Gorn said:

OK, let's suppose that only 30% of MI Dems actively support Biden's actions on Gaza. 30 is still a bigger number than 13.

Ok.  Are they only voting for him for his full throttle support of Israel?  Would they stay home if he negotiated a ceasefire?

Edited February 28 by Larry of the Lawn

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

the media

I agree that the media has failed to cover Trump well, and is failing to cover Biden's presidency very well either.  The headline on CNN this morning was "Michigan Results Show Warning Signs for Trump and Biden", which is the same stupid horseracey stuff they always do.  But I think that kind of approach would be happening whether 3% or 13% of Michigan voters went uncommitted. 

To me the media being shitty is true, but largely orthogonal to whether primary voters should express dissatisfaction with Biden's Gaza stance. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

We've been over this before, and yes, I am fully aware of your disdain for, and your low opinion of, the hoi polloi.  There's a difference between being informed and being stupid, between education and intelligence.  I think you give people too little credit.  You under estimate them at your own peril.  

Imo most politicians treat people like fucking idiots and people don't appreciate that.  And as you acknowledge, it is transparent.  It might be annoying for you, it's insulting the people you're talking to, and they aren't stupid.  They just haven't made a hobby out politics (which is the arguably the saner route to go).  

I literally just slept with someone without a college degree who said she knew as much about politics as someone with a PhD. You run into this all the time. Most people vastly overestimate what they know while doing very little work to gain rudimentary information. That's America bro. Most people I've met who even feel comfortable talking about politics are just like that which is why it's fun to meet individuals who actually know what they're talking about.

Quote

 Would they stay home if he negotiated a ceasefire?

Can't negotiated a ceasefire if Hamas says a ceasefire to them means Israel stops attacking, but they still can. 

[TrackerNeil]

1 hour ago, Kyoshi said:

This is overly simplistic and reductive.

It's weird that my statement "this situation is complicated' is "overly simplistic." But whatever blows your skirt up.

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I literally just slept with someone

Come on man.  DO BETTER.  You don't need to say things like this in the US politics thread. 

[kissdbyfire]

@Jaxom 1974, I saw only one news programme covering the "Trump is underperforming in all Republican primaries" issue:

 

 

[Hmmm]

32 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Is being against the genocide of palestinians an extreme leftwing viewpoint?

No, but supporting the intentional targeting of Israeli civilians is. Or like that guy, claiming that there are not even any real Israeli civilians. 

Well, it is actually more of an Hamas/Islamist viewpoint than a left wing viewpoint, though it can be seen that some leftwing extremists have adopted it.