The beginning and the end of the Darkness

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

It's ridiculous that anyone makes excuses for this person at all.  It's so easy to see where all the lurid anti Stark fabrications come from. 'If my hero is evil enough to do all of this and dismiss it, then the wolves have to be so much worse!'

Hey Dany, how do you feel about all of those executions, wasn't that a little arbitrary and murderous?

"If I look back I'm lost"  She's even cut herself off from reflecting on her actions.

And she had two people tortured in front of their father to force a confession. Daenerys is acting like a dictator, there is no doubt about it. She even buys into her own cult of personality.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

And she had two people tortured in front of their father to force a confession. Daenerys is acting like a dictator, there is no doubt about it. She even buys into her own cult of personality.

Yeah, she's pretty brutal. Maegor with teats as they like to say. I better quickly  go write up something about Arya's dark evil heart or I might have to acknowledge it or something.

[Mourning Star]

The series begins with the prologue, in a dark wood where the easy way was lost.

This is how Dante's Divine Comedy begins, which is also what inspired Frost's poem, Fire and Ice, from which the A Song of Ice and Fire series get's its name.

I would be shocked if the series didn't end with some play on, "By the Love that moves the sun and the other stars."

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The series begins with the prologue, in a dark wood where the easy way was lost.

This is how Dante's Divine Comedy begins, which is also what inspired Frost's poem, Fire and Ice, from which the A Song of Ice and Fire series get's its name.

I would be shocked if the series didn't end with some play on, "By the Love that moves the sun and the other stars."

'The things I do for love.'?

[Lissasalayaya]

Quote

 

The children fought back as best they could, but the First Men were larger and stronger. Riding their horses, clad and armed in bronze, the First Men overwhelmed the elder race wherever they met, for the weapons of the children were made of bone and wood and dragonglass. Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.

Or so the legend says.

Most scholars do agree that Essos and Westeros were once joined; a thousand tales and runic records tell of the crossing of the First Men. Today the seas divide them, so plainly some version of the event the Dornish call the Breaking must have occurred. Did it happen in the space of a single day, however, as the songs would have it? Was it the work of the children of the forest and the sorcery of their greenseers? These things are less certain. Archmaester Cassander suggests elsewise in his Song of the Sea: How the Lands Were Severed , arguing that it was not the singing of greenseers that parted
Westeros from Essos but rather what he calls the Song of the Sea—a slow rising of the waters that took place over centuries, not in a single day, and was caused by a series of long, hot summers and short, warm winters that melted the ice in the frozen lands beyond the Shivering Sea, causing the oceans to rise.

Many maesters find Cassander’s arguments plausible and have come to accept his views. But whether the Breaking took place in a single night, or over the course of centuries, there can be no doubt that it occurred; the Stepstones and the Broken Arm of Dorne give mute but eloquent testimony to its effects.

—The World of Ice and Fire

 

Considering the motif that the maesters ruin the fantasy reader's Fantasy Fun by providing mundane explanations for fantastic events, (Hammer of the Waters magic = Cassander's 'Melting Ice Caps'), it seems telling that the Others are written such that the prevailing expectation in the audience is that the Others are supposed to play a role allegorical of a climate crisis.

GRRM has massaged his readers into an unwitting alliance with the Fantasy-Fun-ruining maesters. This does not bode well for the prevailing expectation.

[Darth Sidious]

Bran is the dark lord of the north. He will be an evil entity and he will require the northmen to feed him human blood through the trees. 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:21 PM, Kierria said:

A Game of Thrones began with a Bran chapter and ended with Daenerys and the birth of her Dragons.  I think it is also the way the story will end. 

It seems that is indeed the structure of the series of novels.  Bran is the prince of darkness who will bring misery and suffering to the people while Dany brings back the light and the hope. 

[House Cambodia]

17 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

It seems that is indeed the structure of the series of novels.  Bran is the prince of darkness who will bring misery and suffering to the people while Dany brings back the light and the hope. 

For me, this sounds too "Lord of the Rings". GRRM seems to be against this sort of Good v Evil trope.

[StarkTullies]

I disagree with almost everything in the original post.  Starks aren't the villains, and Dany is not a bringer of hope.

The only thing I agree with is that the first and last chapters of A Game of Thrones are introductions of two main elements of the story.  The actual first chapter in the book (not Bran, but the Prologue) introduces the ice threat of the Others, and the last chapter introduces the fire threat of the dragons.

Dragons aren't hope.  Their deadly fires can't be used for anything but death and destruction.  Ice and fire may be opposites, but opposites can both be deadly.  Here are two quotes from "pro-fire" characters warning of its dangers.

"Fire consumes.  It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing." - Beric Dondarrion, worshipper of the "fire god"

"I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves."  - Aemon Targaryen, from the "House of Fire"

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I disagree with almost everything in the original post.  Starks aren't the villains, and Dany is not a bringer of hope.

The only thing I agree with is that the first and last chapters of A Game of Thrones are introductions of two main elements of the story.  The actual first chapter in the book (not Bran, but the Prologue) introduces the ice threat of the Others, and the last chapter introduces the fire threat of the dragons.

Dragons aren't hope.  Their deadly fires can't be used for anything but death and destruction.  Ice and fire may be opposites, but opposites can both be deadly.  Here are two quotes from "pro-fire" characters warning of its dangers.

"Fire consumes.  It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing." - Beric Dondarrion, worshipper of the "fire god"

"I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves."  - Aemon Targaryen, from the "House of Fire"

Dragons can be used to burn peasants - or to burn an invading pirate fleet to the waterline, or a tyrant in his castle at Harrenhall.

Hargaz is a “hero” to the elite of Meereen, for his attempt to kill Drogon.  The freedmen spit at the mention of his name.

I see dragons as neutral, like any other weapon.  A war can be unjust or it can be just, but either way, you prosecute it to the best of your ability.

Warfare is not made gentler, by the absence of dragons.  The War of the Five Kings is as brutal as the Thirty Years War or the Deluge.  Every army, Lannister, Stark, Greyjoy, Tyrell, Baratheon perpetrates atrocities - with edged and pointed weapons.

And the worst atrocity of all is inflicting death by starvation.

By way of comparison are direwolves symbols of death and destruction, given that Nymeria and her pack, and Summer, kill and eat people?

I likewise disagree with the O/P that the Starks are villains.  But I see no ethical distinction between them and Daenerys, or between House Stark and House Targaryen, in general.  One House conquered a continent, the other conquered half of it.  The similarities between the families outweigh the differences.

Edited March 30 by SeanF

[StarkTullies]

54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I see dragons as neutral, like any other weapon.

Yes, the dragons are being used as weapons, and that's my point.  A "good guy with nukes" may cause "bad guys" to submit or surrender, but saying that a weapon of mass destruction "gives hope", makes "beautiful music", cause the land to "bloom again" is just silly, and those were the claims used in the original post.

I agree the dragons in themselves are neutral... but I don't think they will be used neutrally.  Dragons can be used for evil, or they can be neutral, but they have never been used for good.

54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Hargaz is a “hero” to the elite of Meereen, for his attempt to kill Drogon.  The freedmen spit at the mention of his name.

How do we know the freedmen spit at his name?  Barristan Selmy is hardly an unbiased viewpoint character.  He militantly denied that Daenerys publicly laughed at Quentyn, which she did do, so I take none of his worshipful perceptions of Dany as truth.  This is the man who had blind loyalty to Mad King Aerys and would have continued his blind loyalty to King Joffrey had Joffrey not fired him.

Drogon killed 214 people flying out of the fighting pit after eating Barsena in front of everyone, to the horror of all.  Drogon didn't discriminate between elite or freedmen, and he burned or maimed 3x as many people as he killed.  Now Rhaegal is setting fire to Meereen as well.  Of course the people who hate Dany also hate her dragons, but I find it extremely likely that a huge portion of the freedmen don't hate the dragons as well.  The father of Hazzea, at the very least, considers Harghaz a hero.

54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

By way of comparison are direwolves symbols of death and destruction, given that Nymeria and her pack, and Summer, kill and eat people?

Comparing wild wolves to wild dragons is a fair comparison.  Comparing wild wolves to a weaponized dragon who will burn down entire castles or villages if their rider commands them to is not a fair comparison.  If Nymeria is actively warged by Arya and Nymeria leads an army of wolves into battle, which I think is a likely possibility, that is a better comparison.  So far that hasn't happened.

Regardless, my response about the dragon's fires (not dragons themselves) leading to nothing but death and destruction is a response to the repeated claim that "ice is death but fire is life".  No, both are death: try walking into a burning house while making a claim that "fire gives life".

I don't hate dragons as living creatures.  I liked Grey Ghost who minded his own business and ate fish, and so far I like Viserion who rather hang out with his "mother" than fly around eating small children like Dany's favorite child.  But in this story dragons are weapons, and so far the wolves are not.  Ghost has done many good deeds: the dragons do nothing but kill or induce submission from their ability to kill.

Edited March 30 by StarkTullies

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Yes, the dragons are being used as weapons, and that's my point.  A "good guy with nukes" may cause "bad guys" to submit or surrender, but saying that a weapon of mass destruction "gives hope", makes "beautiful music", cause the land to "bloom again" is just silly, and those were the claims used in the original post.

I agree the dragons in themselves are neutral... but I don't think they will be used neutrally.  Dragons can be used for evil, or they can be neutral, but they have never been used for good.

How do we know the freedmen spit at his name?  Barristan Selmy is hardly an unbiased viewpoint character.  He militantly denied that Daenerys publicly laughed at Quentyn, which she did do, so I take none of his worshipful perceptions of Dany as truth.  This is the man who had blind loyalty to Mad King Aerys and would have continued his blind loyalty to King Joffrey had Joffrey not fired him.

Drogon killed 214 people flying out of the fighting pit after eating Barsena in front of everyone, to the horror of all.  Drogon didn't discriminate between elite or freedmen, and he burned or maimed 3x as many people as he killed.  Now Rhaegal is setting fire to Meereen as well.  Of course the people who hate Dany also hate her dragons, but I find it extremely likely that a huge portion of the freedmen don't hate the dragons as well.  The father of Hazzea, at the very least, considers Harghaz a hero.

Comparing wild wolves to wild dragons is a fair comparison.  Comparing wild wolves to a weaponized dragon who will burn down entire castles or villages if their rider commands them to is not a fair comparison.  If Nymeria is actively warged by Arya and Nymeria leads an army of wolves into battle, which I think is a likely possibility, that is a better comparison.  So far that hasn't happened.

Regardless, my response about the dragon's fires (not dragons themselves) leading to nothing but death and destruction is a response to the repeated claim that "ice is death but fire is life".  No, both are death: try walking into a burning house while making a claim that "fire gives life".

I don't hate dragons as living creatures.  I liked Grey Ghost who minded his own business and ate fish, and so far I like Viserion who rather hang out with his "mother" than fly around eating small children like Dany's favorite child.  But in this story dragons are weapons, and so far the wolves are not.  Ghost has done many good deeds: the dragons do nothing but kill or induce submission from their ability to kill.

Chaining up the dragons emboldened the slavers, and led the Second Sons to switch sides..  Those who are demanding their deaths are 200 Great Masters, the Yunkish, and the Green Grace. A freedman knocks a master to the floor, when he calls Harghaz a hero.   I’ve no reason to believe that Barristan is lying to himself about the state of affairs in Mereen. (Dany was not mocking Quentyn.  She was laughing at the coincidence between his being called Frog, but actually being a Prince, and the fairy tale.  Gerris chose to treat it as mockery, and Barristan was right to correct him).

As for the Pit, it’s worth noting that Drogon was not the aggressor.  He was attacked by Harghaz, and other guards, egged on by Hizdahr.  It may have disgusted them to see Barsena being eaten, but they were perfectly content to see her being gutted by a boar, and perfectly happy to get off on seeing dwarves being chased and eaten by lions, so my sympathy is limited.

The old slave who talked to Tyrion was clear that it was the masters who gave him “a show”, as he and other slaves looked down from the upper tier.  The elite aficionados were in the front rows, closest to the action.

Edited March 30 by SeanF

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Bran and Jon will be the traitors to mankind who will send the Wights to attack Westeros.  Revenge is the usual motive behind what the Starks do.  Jon is already asking Arya to avenge his death.  "Stick em with the pointy end".  More than likely she will die before reaching the Wall and Jon will rage and open the passage for the Wights. 

[Texas Hold Em]

The resolution at the end is a state of balance between ice and fire.  Dany's journey follows our protagonists learning about history, cultures, and her family's past.  Bran is learning as well but his immaturity is a hurdle.  The success of the negotiation will depend on Dany's skills at handling an immature and angry Bran.  A lot will be on Bran's shoulders.  Any hopes of reconciliation and peace are very small as long as Jon and Arya are alive.  Bran will need to put his bastard brother and big sister on a short leash for reconciliation to have a chance.