Westerosi Superiority ... or Inferiority?

[astarkchoice]

On 4/3/2024 at 9:47 AM, Aldarion said:

Superior: best military in the known world, more humane society than most other places in the world (very low bar, I know)

Inferior: apparently inferior economy, little trade (?)

Note that "little trade" even if true is not necessarily a bad thing considering what medieval trade typically brought with it as a side-effect (namely, bloody plague).

Quality wise the free cities sellswkrds are at least on par with westeros forces but for overall size  yes almost no one is matching a united westeros on land (bravos and maybe quarth can at sea though) .....on land  maybe yi-ti but we dont know the scale of their current civil war, military wise if they are a medieval china rip.off then theyd be on par man for man.

The only other force that could concievebly match a unjted westeros on land would  be the jojos nhai being like the dothraki but without any of their stupid self imposed handicaps!!

 

Economy wise ( outside bravos )essos is on a larger scale but is more slavery focused which is less efficent overall.

[The Hoare]

Westeros is inferior in everything except military. I think Westeros is to the Free Cities what medieval England was to the italian republics.

 

[sifth]

I mean it depends where you live. For example I think Dorne is the most advanced part of Westeros. Equal rights for women, bastards are treated as part of the family, it's even implied they have no issue with gay people. There's no slaves and the royal family, seems to be mostly good people. Like the rest of Westeros, they don't believe in public fights to the death and are more interested in skill at arms.

If we're talking about Essos, well Braavos is the most advanced of the free cities; no slaves, The Iron Bank, known for being friendly to the poor and less fortunate, many seem to have a strong sense of honor; while equal rights aren't exactly a thing here, it's still a lot better than many places, since Arya is allowed to join the Faceless Men.

Edited April 9 by sifth

[Vaegon the dragonless]

On 4/3/2024 at 9:36 AM, House Cambodia said:

It does seem to be the dominant religion on the continent, with no sign of being particularly radical. Contra Alden, I wouldn't say we know next to nothing, as we get a fair dose of Moqorro's beliefs when he's picked up by Victarion. It's interesting to see where he differs from Melissandre. With the Iron Born captain being more than happy to sacrifice men by flinging them overboard (and later in The Forsaken chapter we see Euron having all sorts of designs on sacrificing people), Moquorro never suggests burning anyone.

If I recall correctly Victarion does burn alive a few slaves girls has a sacrifice to R'hollor, and my guess is that Moqorro is the one that gives the idea of burning them alive, I could be wrong but it does seem so. So we have 2 Red Priest who do it and if I recall Thoros was by is own admittance a bad priest so there is a good chance he was not exactly very devoted. So it could be a niche practice that only some factions of the follower of R'hollor actually practice, but that the majority don't.

[Aldarion]

On 4/9/2024 at 4:02 AM, sifth said:

I mean it depends where you live. For example I think Dorne is the most advanced part of Westeros. Equal rights for women, bastards are treated as part of the family, it's even implied they have no issue with gay people. There's no slaves and the royal family, seems to be mostly good people. Like the rest of Westeros, they don't believe in public fights to the death and are more interested in skill at arms.

 

Except for lack of slaves, everything you have listed isn't "more advanced" but merely "different".

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Except for lack of slaves, everything you have listed isn't "more advanced" but merely "different".

Equal rights for both genders and no discrimination for bastards, isn’t advanced, lol

[Aldarion]

12 hours ago, sifth said:

Equal rights for both genders and no discrimination for bastards, isn’t advanced, lol

Not inherently, no. Equal rights for both genders are kinda dumb in a premodern society (equal status not necessarily, but equal rights definitely are). As for "no discrimination for bastards", just the fact that some bastards turn out decent doesn't mean discrimination is illogical. Family is crucial in a premodern society, and a person who doesn't feel like he belongs will try to prove himself - by any means necessary. So yes, discrimination against bastards, while it often misses the mark and makes the problem worse than it would have been otherwise, is not entirely baseless.

Stop looking at everything through lens of 21st century Western individual whose biggest problem is having your Internet connection cut off.

[sifth]

42 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

 

Stop looking at everything through lens of 21st century Western individual whose biggest problem is having your Internet connection cut off.

It's the only way I can see the world. I can't pretend I live and was raised in the middle ages, that you seem to be able to.

Simply put, the people of Dorne are more evolved, compared to the rest of Westeros, by not being bigots, to which I rather like.

Edited April 19 by sifth

[Aldarion]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

It's the only way I can see the world. I can't pretend I live and was raised in the middle ages, that you seem to be able to.

You don't need to pretend. You just need to try and understand the conditions they were living in. Most of the things that are normal today would be absolutely insane in Middle Ages, because they would lead to quick extinction of any group that attempted to do these things. Thanks to our technology, we live in a time of unprecedented safety and wealth, and are thus able to do stupid shit with relatively little to no practical consequence. But life before the invention of steam engine and advanced agricultural tools was a life on edge. There was no room for playing around and conducting social experiments.

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Simply put, the people of Dorne are more evolved, compared to the rest of Westeros, by not being bigots, to which I rather like.

Everything can be and is bigoted, depending on time and conditions, so "not being bigoted" is absolutely useless for determining how good a society is, and is thus not something I care about.

Quality of life, personal freedom and safety. Those are the three basic characteristics one should judge a society by. And to return to the topic, Westeros is massively superior to most of Essos (excepting Braavos, perhaps) in at least two of these, and usually in all three.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

You don't need to pretend. You just need to try and understand the conditions they were living in. Most of the things that are normal today would be absolutely insane in Middle Ages, because they would lead to quick extinction of any group that attempted to do these things. Thanks to our technology, we live in a time of unprecedented safety and wealth, and are thus able to do stupid shit with relatively little to no practical consequence. But life before the invention of steam engine and advanced agricultural tools was a life on edge. There was no room for playing around and conducting social experiments.

Everything can be and is bigoted, depending on time and conditions, so "not being bigoted" is absolutely useless for determining how good a society is, and is thus not something I care about.

Quality of life, personal freedom and safety. Those are the three basic characteristics one should judge a society by. And to return to the topic, Westeros is massively superior to most of Essos (excepting Braavos, perhaps) in at least two of these, and usually in all three.

That’s well-reasoned.

Being a chattel slave is objectively worse (not just a matter of opinion), for the typical inhabitant of Essos, than being a peasant is, for the typical inhabitant of Westeros.  And in a slave-owning society (especially one where slaves so outnumber free people), levels of violence and insecurity will be far greater than in peacetime Westeros (slaves are essentially subject to permanent war).

Neither condition is desirable, to any inhabitant of a 21st century industrialised democracy, but one is clearly worse than the other.

[Aldarion]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

(slaves are essentially subject to permanent war)

Yep. I am rather surprised that entirety of Slaver's bay doesn't have an institution similar to Spartan krypteia, seeing how ancient Sparta was the only place in premodern history where free-to-slave ratio was similar to that of the Slaver's Bay.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Yep. I am rather surprised that entirety of Slaver's bay doesn't have an institution similar to Spartan krypteia, seeing how ancient Sparta was the only place in premodern history where free-to-slave ratio was similar to that of the Slaver's Bay.

The Ephors honestly acknowledged the position of the helots by annually declaring war on them.

Yunkai’s and Astapor’s elites, who are joke soldiers themselves, would be swiftly overthrown.  My impression is their Meereenese counterparts are more militarised.  The fight for the city was tough, and the Harpies are effective insurgents.  New Ghis most resembles Sparta.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Yep. I am rather surprised that entirety of Slaver's bay doesn't have an institution similar to Spartan krypteia, seeing how ancient Sparta was the only place in premodern history where free-to-slave ratio was similar to that of the Slaver's Bay.

Well they do have assasin cults , ex gladiator muscle , roboticly obedient unsullied guards , sellswords etc to help stamp out growing slave rebellions! Volantis leaders  for example seem to be leaning towards the golden company to wipe out the fire priests for them.

The  sudden and slick organisation of the harpies seems to hint maybe the slavers have done something similar before to keep slaves down  just probably smaller scale (and without so many ex gladiators to employ as extra   killers) 

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Ephors honestly acknowledged the position of the helots by annually declaring war on them.

Yunkai’s and Astapor’s elites, who are joke soldiers themselves, would be swiftly overthrown.  My impression is their Meereenese counterparts are more militarised.  The fight for the city was tough, and the Harpies are effective insurgents.  New Ghis most resembles Sparta.

I dont think mereen is any more militarised its just a bit bigger and its harpy movement has ex gladiators to bulk its ranks. Yunkais elite seem to be stupidly giddly with an assured victory over danys mereen hence they have turned vast parts of their army into a  joke carnival parade of clowns...  but their inital stance vs dany outside their city by contrast seemed competently handled and winnable for them.

As for troops outside the niche gladiators and assasins slavers bay seems to produce 3 types of troops

the stupidly niche unsullied

mass produced 'not worth the swords they carry'  that the clanker lords have dressed up sections stupidly ..although we do hear of a lot of crossbows among them (tyrion mentions as useless vs the dragons) which are a good way to make even worthless troops semi effective

And the cities guard + military forces, like the volantis tiger guards  professional and probably way  better treated than most slaves to the point the masters can trust them to put slaves down to keep the status quo intact!

 

New ghis seems to be the exception and for it is far more martial, being largely  cut out of the constant swathes of slaves driven by the dothraki to the bay has stopped them going as soft!!

 

Other than that we see the man who fought on horseback vs strong belwas seems.to be a leftover of what was once a military /martial culture among the slaver nobles!

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 4/1/2024 at 7:36 AM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

In what ways are the 7ish Kingdoms of Westeros superior and/or inferior to the rest of the known world?

They don't own slaves.  That looks like progress to me.  The Meerenese, Qartheen,  and Volantines have more culture.  They live elegantly, bathe more, are generally more educated, and such.  But underneath they are more cruel in my opinion.  So take your pick.  What do you consider more advanced?  Elegant living with slavery or less- educated but no slavery.

[Northern Sword]

On 4/1/2024 at 6:36 AM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

In what ways are the 7ish Kingdoms of Westeros superior and/or inferior to the rest of the known world?

Superiority - The 7 Kingdoms don't have slavery. The military is superior, at least in terms of armor(Knights would wreak havoc in the east-Just thinking of Ser Barristan alone, what if there were a thousand knights in Danny's forces), organization(The Golden Company is the best Merc's in the business) and numbers(A united 7K army would field a larger force then any city state). Security, Westeros doesn't have to worry about hoards of Dothraki sweeping away towns and taking slaves. 7K's also has the best Wall.

Inferiority - Tolerance maybe. Just thinking religion wise. Also, trade seems more integral to the east then west. Magic, there seems more magical variety out east. Due to slavery, Artisans would/should be more specialized. Whores- Its like a religion in the east.

[astarkchoice]

22 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Superiority - The 7 Kingdoms don't have slavery. The military is superior, at least in terms of armor(Knights would wreak havoc in the east-Just thinking of Ser Barristan alone, what if there were a thousand knights in Danny's forces), organization(The Golden Company is the best Merc's in the business) and numbers(A united 7K army would field a larger force then any city state). Security, Westeros doesn't have to worry about hoards of Dothraki sweeping away towns and taking slaves. 7K's also has the best Wall.

Inferiority - Tolerance maybe. Just thinking religion wise. Also, trade seems more integral to the east then west. Magic, there seems more magical variety out east. Due to slavery, Artisans would/should be more specialized. Whores- Its like a religion in the east.

Hmmm well the ironborn have slaves.

The finest armour is supposedly made in essos and most of the sellsword companies men will be essosi born and bred.Numbers would be interesting 

Securiry wise you sre right but wallwise we dont hesr much of the  huge  essosi wall and its  5 forts to make a comparsion!

[Northern Sword]

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Hmmm well the ironborn have slaves.

The finest armour is supposedly made in essos and most of the sellsword companies men will be essosi born and bred.Numbers would be interesting 

Securiry wise you sre right but wallwise we dont hesr much of the  huge  essosi wall and its  5 forts to make a comparsion!

hmmm. I guess that is true about the Iron Born. But they are not indicative of the 7K's as a whole. Slaves, religion and culture are all significantly different from the 7K's.

The east may make good armor, yet they don't use plate armor at all. Seems unique to Westeros. I think of Old man Barristan fighting that pit fighter in the pyramid while taking the king hostage. I don't remember exactly, but he thought this guy is younger, stronger and faster... but he cant touch me in armor. So in my mind it is a significant advantage.

There is only 1 wall of ice 700 ft tall or whatever absurd height it is. I'm sure those 5 forts are neat though

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

hmmm. I guess that is true about the Iron Born. But they are not indicative of the 7K's as a whole. Slaves, religion and culture are all significantly different from the 7K's.

The east may make good armor, yet they don't use plate armor at all. Seems unique to Westeros. I think of Old man Barristan fighting that pit fighter in the pyramid while taking the king hostage. I don't remember exactly, but he thought this guy is younger, stronger and faster... but he cant touch me in armor. So in my mind it is a significant advantage.

There is only 1 wall of ice 700 ft tall or whatever absurd height it is. I'm sure those 5 forts are neat though

True

 

Remebrr the bulk of sellsword companies will be essosi born and bred and they wear armour.  The pit fighter barristan fought had never e countered plate but we do see they can make armoir for pit fighters , slave troops and even the man belwas kills outside mereen! Seems.more that pitfighter just hadnt seen plate, his niche was rippimg out and esting hearts so he was probably.never matched vs armour wearers either!

Says the forts have fused stone walls 1000ft high! Just like westeros  its clear something horrible.came.to essos a long lomg time.ago

[Lord Varys]

While Westeros does have also a culture of gigantic architecture, Essosi architecture is vastly superior to Westeros'. And not just in Yi Ti and Asshai, obviously, but also in Qarth and even Volantis and Braavos. Just think about the size of the great cities of Yi Ti or the comparison of the Red Temple of Volantis to the Red Keep. Or, more importantly, the comparison of the towns along the Rhoyne to the cities of Westeros.

Yes, they have slavery, but we don't know how crucial slavery is to YiTish culture, say. Westeros is stuck in perpetual feudalism with effectively no social mobility and no education for anyone living outside a castle or a city - which is the bulk of the people.

The Free Cities do have social mobility for adventurers and bravos (not only) via the free companies, it also allows for the rise of humble merchants and scoundrels to the level of magisters (Rego Draz, Illyrio Mopatis). And you can also rise to prominence via piracy. Something like Davos' career is a very lucky accident which only happens in a civil war setting when you have the luck to help a crucial member of the victorious faction. 

City culture is also more an Essosi thing - and in that sense Oldtown would also more an Essosi city as it seems clear that the entire city culture there was shaped by developed due to the trade connections and cultural exchange between the place and Valyria and its colonies (and the Summer Isles, etc.).