Could Orell's hatred of Jon pass to Bran, through Varamyr?

[Sandy Clegg]

Just what the title says really. We know that the hatred Orell feels for Jon lived on in his eagle, which varamyr claimed. It seems that strong emotions may linger like a virus within wargs.

Quote

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well.

Varamyr's spirit then went into his wolf One-Eye.

Quote

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

One-eye's wolfpack are then subdued by Summer, who now leads the pack.

So is there a possibility that Bran may at some point warg into One-Eye, and be touched by Orell's hatred of Jon, as the emotions 'linger' within warged beasts? And if so, might this have any consequences for any future contact between Bran and Jon?

Edited April 28 by Sandy Clegg
spilleng

[KingStoneheart]

It's possible, my only thought behind it is that realistically Bran should at some point become the master of warging, weirwood network, etc. and so really should be able to remove this hatred / virus from his feelings. On the topic of this, I can't see future Bran actually having much feelings at all and can see him just being a literal tree inside the body of a broken boy.

[House Cambodia]

I see the thinking, but for me Summer being in proximity to One-Eye doesn't give any reason to warg into the weaker wolf, unless Summer were to experience sudden death syndrome, like Varamyr's eagle.

[Willam Stark]

I don't think he would ever warg into One-Eye, but if he does then it's possible.

Edited April 29 by Willam Stark

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

It's possible, my only thought behind it is that realistically Bran should at some point become the master of warging, weirwood network, etc. and so really should be able to remove this hatred / virus from his feelings.

Hopefully he'll be able to master this, but I guess the Varamyr prologue's function was at least in part to set up the mechanisms for warging and the possible dangers one can face when doing so. In this sense it feels like the 'leftover hatred' might be a significant piece of foreshadowing, if not from One-Eye then maybe as a separate plot point. 

Wargs who take over a previous warg's beast are basically opening themselves up to a (mild?) form of emotional infection. 

[LongRider]

Here is what Bloodraven explains to Bran after Bran had warged his first raven:

Then he realized he was not alone.
"Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."
"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you." 
"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bloodraven assures Bran that the warg's spirit in the raven will not harm Bran, is this also the same for Orrel's eagle?   

[Sandy Clegg]

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Bloodraven assures Bran that the warg's spirit in the raven will not harm Bran, is this also the same for Orrel's eagle?   

It seems as though Varamyr and Bloodraven provide conflicting testimony here.

Perhaps Bloodraven is being specific, and that particular raven will not harm Bran rather than all ravens? Orell's hatred wouldn't really hurt Bran either, I suppose, just taint his feelings somewhat towards Jon slightly. I guess we'll find out.

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

It seems as though Varamyr and Bloodraven provide conflicting testimony here.

Perhaps Bloodraven is being specific, and that particular raven will not harm Bran rather than all ravens? Orell's hatred wouldn't really hurt Bran either, I suppose, just taint his feelings somewhat towards Jon slightly. I guess we'll find out.

Bloodraven is telling Bran that ravens warged by the CotF won't hurt him.  Ravens warged by other than the CotF could be a different story. I would think that the Free Folk wargs, and the CotF wargs would have varying traditions and practices for warging.  That may make a difference.  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I would guess that it would come down to where Bran is on his journey as a skin changer/ greenseer when it happens.  Now that you put it out there, I could see it as a potential problem that Bran will have to deal with at a perhaps inopportune moment. Varamyr does say something like some of his own animals hate him and one would tear him up if they could (the bear?), so for a mature warg these problems do arise, but are surmountable.

[kissdbyfire]

On 4/29/2024 at 11:09 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Hopefully he'll be able to master this, but I guess the Varamyr prologue's function was at least in part to set up the mechanisms for warging and the possible dangers one can face when doing so. In this sense it feels like the 'leftover hatred' might be a significant piece of foreshadowing, if not from One-Eye then maybe as a separate plot point. 
 

I think the Varamyr prologue does just that, but I don’t see it as a set up for an artificial Jon-Bran estrangement or something. 

 

On 4/29/2024 at 11:09 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Wargs who take over a previous warg's beast are basically opening themselves up to a (mild?) form of emotional infection. 

You mean skinchangers, right? 

Anyway, I’m not so sure about the emotional infection as you put it.  

[kissdbyfire]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:18 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Perhaps Bloodraven is being specific, and that particular raven will not harm Bran rather than all ravens? Orell's hatred wouldn't really hurt Bran either, I suppose, just taint his feelings somewhat towards Jon slightly. I guess we'll find out.

I don’t think it would… because Bran would understand that those were someone else’s feelings. It happens throughout the books, instances where Jon or Bran are aware of what Ghost and Summer are feeling. Their bonds with other animals will be different, sure, the relationship could never be as it is between the boys and the direwolves. Still, I’d find it extremely odd if all of a sudden Bran develops some weird anti Jon feelings that he “caught” second-hand from an animal he skinchanged into w/o realising those are not his own feelings. 

[Sandy Clegg]

On 4/29/2024 at 9:42 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Varamyr does say something like some of his own animals hate him and one would tear him up if they could (the bear?), so for a mature warg these problems do arise, but are surmountable.

This made me look at Mors Umber, who wears a bear's skin (complete with head) and has a white eye patch with an obsidian eye beneath. Could GRRM be using him as a way of linking Varamyr (who often went inside a bear's skin) and Euron (another arcane character who dreams of falling/flying and wears an eye patch). 

[LongRider]

On 4/30/2024 at 1:05 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Perhaps Bloodraven is being specific, and that particular raven will not harm Bran rather than all ravens?

While BR may have been specific for that one raven, by the time Bran and Jon meet up (if they do meet up) he will have had the chance to warg many different ravens, so he would have experienced the residual of many different personalities.  

On 4/30/2024 at 1:05 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think it would… because Bran would understand that those were someone else’s feelings.

Agree, he would have the experience to understand that, and not be overwhelmed by Orell's hate.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 03:54 PM by LongRider

[Ring3r]

On 4/28/2024 at 3:09 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Just what the title says really. We know that the hatred Orell feels for Jon lived on in his eagle, which varamyr claimed. It seems that strong emotions may linger like a virus within wargs.

Varamyr's spirit then went into his wolf One-Eye.

One-eye's wolfpack are then subdued by Summer, who now leads the pack.

So is there a possibility that Bran may at some point warg into One-Eye, and be touched by Orell's hatred of Jon, as the emotions 'linger' within warged beasts? And if so, might this have any consequences for any future contact between Bran and Jon?

It's a good idea, but that's really not the way that wolves work.  Once the leaders of a pack (alpha male and female) accept a member, that member is expected to follow their lead.

Given that we're two "generations" of skinchanger down, with each becoming more like their animal over time, I can't imagine there's very much hate of Jon left...and what little there is would probably be very quickly subsumed by the wolf-instinct to follow the alpha.

Fun idea though.  Makes me wonder what on earth is going to happen if Summer, Nymeria and Ghost all meet...who is going to be the alpha?  I have to assume it'll be Ghost, but who knows.  For all we know, GRRM's original outline (which included Jon and Arya falling in love) could have shifted to their WOLVES falling in love....which would be super awkward for the humans.

[LongRider]

 

36 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Fun idea though.  Makes me wonder what on earth is going to happen if Summer, Nymeria and Ghost all meet...who is going to be the alpha? 

Good question, as currently, Ghost is a lone wolf, Summer has found a small pack, and Nymeria is reported as leading a huge pack of wolves.  Plus, Arya has wolf dreams where Nymeria and her pack kill men.  Below is a link to her wiki page which discusses her.  It includes reports of a 'huge female direwolf leading a large pack' Arys's wolf dreams of her dragging Cat out of the river after being murdered at the Red Wedding, and of her and her pack killing the men hunting her.  She may not be an alpha male, but I doubt that either Ghost or Summer will best the she beast.   You go girl!  

Nymeria's wiki page link:   Nymeria (direwolf) - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

 

 

Edited Saturday at 01:22 AM by LongRider

[Ring3r]

Just now, LongRider said:

 

Good question, as currently, Ghost is a lone wolf, Summer has found a small pack, and Nymeria is reported as leading a huge pack of wolves.  Plus, Arya has wolf dreams where Nymeria and her pack kill men.  Below is a link to her wiki page which discusses her.  It includes reports of a 'huge female direwolf leading a large pack' Arys's wolf dreams of her dragging Cat out of the river after being murdered at the Red Wedding, reports of her and her pack killing the men hunting her.  She may not be an alpha male, but I doubt that either Ghost or Summer will best the she beast.   You go girl!  

Nymeria's wiki page link:   Nymeria (direwolf) - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

Yeah, that's why I find it so interesting.  Cuz....wolf packs are lead by an alpha male AND female.  The rest of the wolves treat them as equals.  So I assume Nymeria is the alpha female.....I suppose my question is....who is the alpha male?  Summer?  Or Ghost?  Ghost is, almost by definition....the lone wolf....but he's also the largest.  Even in the first book, he was growing faster than the rest.

Super interesting topic, but we just don't have enough info yet.

[LongRider]

6 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Summer?  Or Ghost?  Ghost is, almost by definition....the lone wolf....but he's also the largest.

Let's not forget Shaggy Dog.  If he ever appears again in the story, he could be quite a wild wolf.  The direwolves do seem to reflect their Stark handlers' personalities.  Nymeria, like Arya, doesn't want to take shit from anyone, leads and protects her pack, like Arya did when crossing the Riverlands.   Ghost, hmm, like his Stark, he's less aggressive though will fight if he needs too.  Summer is more like Bran, who is currently not leading or fighting any battles.   Have to agree with you, the direwolves will be interesting.  Moreso than the dragons, as I see it. 

[Sandy Clegg]

10 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Given that we're two "generations" of skinchanger down, with each becoming more like their animal over time, I can't imagine there's very much hate of Jon left...and what little there is would probably be very quickly subsumed by the wolf-instinct to follow the alpha.

Well that's the point. We aren't given much info on how these emotions fade with generations. I do think it might be more of a foreshadowing idea than an 'Orell's revenge' arc, though. Skinchanging magic surely follows one of George's favourite metaphors: a sword without a hilt - effects may go both ways, but to what extent?

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

On 4/28/2024 at 4:09 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Just what the title says really. We know that the hatred Orell feels for Jon lived on in his eagle, which varamyr claimed. It seems that strong emotions may linger like a virus within wargs.

Varamyr's spirit then went into his wolf One-Eye.

One-eye's wolfpack are then subdued by Summer, who now leads the pack.

So is there a possibility that Bran may at some point warg into One-Eye, and be touched by Orell's hatred of Jon, as the emotions 'linger' within warged beasts? And if so, might this have any consequences for any future contact between Bran and Jon?

I really feel like this is teeing up something different. I think you are correct that George is foreshadowing something like this, but with different characters. different wolves.

Robb is dead, but it still nags me that we never saw Greywind die. We are told he died, but the Freys have lied about so much of the red wedding, why should we trust them when we hear they say they killed the wolf. they could have sowed any wolf head onto Robbs corpse, and maybe thats just something the small folk made up, like they do. They shot Grey, like they shot Robbs squire, but Robb's squire fell into the ford, his body never recovered, so why not Greywind? They shot it, it fell in the water, why not assume it dead?

The other wolves cant sense it because Greywind ended up at Greywater Watch (wholly appropriate naming in this case), which is magically protected, like the wall.

Its Jon who will inherit someone else's feelings, Robbs living will. The will of his brother who named him king.

Edited Sunday at 03:10 AM by Club-foot cleft-lips

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Sounds extremely far-fetched to me.