BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Maithanet]

As fascinating as the Sword Princess discussion is, I had a question that may or may not be answerable given our current supply of three PoN novels.

The Cishaurim were pretty destroyed at the end of TT, and understandably so. They seemed to (as a school) embrace the thinking that victory was the only option and death was the alternative, not defeat. Given that fact, was the Psûkhe lost at the end of the book? Are there any Cishaurim left? If so, will they be able to carry on? I feel like that might have been a pretty serious mistake to lose an entire school of learning.

Is this clear at the end of the book? Is there mention of any Cishaurim being somewhere else and I missed it?

Once lost could the Psûkhe be regained? I don't really see how, even if Kellhus does understand the theoretical underpinnings of the art. And besides, Dunyain suck at the Psûkhe, so how much help could he really provide?

[Shryke]

As fascinating as the Sword Princess discussion is, I had a question that may or may not be answerable given our current supply of three PoN novels.

The Cishaurim were pretty destroyed at the end of TT, and understandably so. They seemed to (as a school) embrace the thinking that victory was the only option and death was the alternative, not defeat. Given that fact, was the Psûkhe lost at the end of the book? Are there any Cishaurim left? If so, will they be able to carry on? I feel like that might have been a pretty serious mistake to lose an entire school of learning.

Is this clear at the end of the book? Is there mention of any Cishaurim being somewhere else and I missed it?

Once lost could the Psûkhe be regained? I don't really see how, even if Kellhus does understand the theoretical underpinnings of the art. And besides, Dunyain suck at the Psûkhe, so how much help could he really provide?

The Cishaurim are probably all dead.

There were 2 problems with them:

1) They were priests. Part of the goal of Moenghus/Kellhus' plan was to bring the human race under 1 banner. The Cishaurim, as priests of the Fanim religioin, would always be a hiderance to said objective.

2) Even they barely understood the Psuhke. It was sen by M/K as an inferior path of sorcery. A dead end of sorts. Not worth saving if it got in the way of larger goals, which it did.

[Paxter]

Can you elaborate on this?

I do certainly remember that Kellhus wanted to take the Holy War by the horns and all that, but did he and M have a larger idea about not necessarily taking over, but uniting all people together?

I suppose the assumption is that the two Anasurimbors want to unite the human race (and not just gain control control) because only a united people can hope to stand up against the Inchoroi.

As for the Cishaurim, I really do hope that some remnants of the Psukhe survived the disaster at Shimeh. The tension between the Anagogic, Gnostic and Psukhe schools of magic has been one of the highlights of the series for me so far.

[Padraig]

Well the Fanim still control a lot of territory at the end of the series IIRC, so no reason for all the Cishaurim to be dead.

[Paxter]

Well the Fanim still control a lot of territory at the end of the series IIRC, so no reason for all the Cishaurim to be dead.

I suppose the problem with this argument is that, given their knowledge that the entire Scarlet Spires were descending upon Shimeh, it is likely that the Cishaurim would have called on their entire forces to battle the Spires - leaving none in reserve. Since things didn't work out for the Cishaurim, the assumption then is that there are none remaining (or at least none with any serious ability/experience who can revive the Psukhe).

Still, you are right - there is at least some chance that there are some few Cishaurim remaining in the far reaches of Fanim territory, perhaps who were not able to make it in time to join the defence of Shimeh.

[Shryke]

Can you elaborate on this?

I do certainly remember that Kellhus wanted to take the Holy War by the horns and all that, but did he and M have a larger idea about not necessarily taking over, but uniting all people together?

That was what the Thousand-Fold Thought WAS. Only a united human race could hope to survive the Apocalypse. And the best uniter of people is ... religion. And the culture that goes with it. Hence Kelhuss becoming a religious figure, in order to unite the human race under his rule.

[Gold Storm]

I suppose the problem with this argument is that, given their knowledge that the entire Scarlet Spires were descending upon Shimeh, it is likely that the Cishaurim would have called on their entire forces to battle the Spires - leaving none in reserve. Since things didn't work out for the Cishaurim, the assumption then is that there are none remaining (or at least none with any serious ability/experience who can revive the Psukhe).

Still, you are right - there is at least some chance that there are some few Cishaurim remaining in the far reaches of Fanim territory, perhaps who were not able to make it in time to join the defence of Shimeh.

I would not be too surprised to learn that a few Cishaurim and Scarlet Spires did survive the final battle at Shimeh and are off on their own like Druss. With two of the main wizard schools destroyed in the Holy War, their could be several wizards out on their own and not being controlled by a school.

From what I have read, the next book takes place 20 years after Thousandfold and wizard schools will be totally different from before the war.

[Shryke]

Some of you guys have touched on the hope I expressed about some of the Cishaurim or SS surviving to keep things interesting. I love this idea.

Shryke - I know you used to talk to Bakker online somehow. Are you still in touch with him or was that just on three-seas.com for a while when he was still posting?

Just on Three-Seas, back when people actually posted there. There's a few on this board who've talked to him ALOT more then I ever did.

[Jacen]

So, I'm re-reading this fantastic series for the 3rd time ;now I'm about 100 pages into the TTF and want to blather about it. Need to make sure I read the “big†convo between Kellhus and Moenghus very closely.

couple random points/questions, probably been discussed many times already

1. The Nonmen :Very interesting, very tragic, and I especially want to see more of Mekeritrig. Yet…ultimately I cannot feel sorry for them at all. Their race is ultimately doomed (though I suppose they can only be killed off either violently or accidentally? Since they cannot die of old age), and their reaction to this is to nihilistically and apathetically serve the forces of evil simply for the sake of memory? Too bad they don’t have the courage to just deal with their lack of memory or better yet kill themselves. They KNOW what they are doing is wrong, but they do it anyway. That whole scene with Mekeritrig and Seswatha at Dagliash is wonderfully written, and points all this out. Mek basically admits it hurts him deeply to do what he does but he needs to for the sake of having something to remember. How selfish is that?

2. I still don’t understand the Inchoroi/Consult plan. How do you “close off†the world from the Outside? Why would the rules of damnation no longer apply if you somehow managed to kill off everyone on the planet (which would be very difficult to do anyway)? Let’s assume for the sake of discussion the Christian God is real. If something disastrous happened, and I was the last man on Earth, whenever I died, I would assume all the rules would still apply. I wouldn’t get a free pass to Heaven just because I was the only person left, would I?

Also, are the Inchoroi damned on whatever planet they came from, or do God’s and their powers only apply to individual planet’s themselves?

3. Aurang and Aurax… It seems clear to me that the monstrosity we see at the end of Warrior Prophet is the true, original form of the Inchoroi. Whichever brother that is, I forget, but the other takes the form of the bird Synthese. Is that simply a host form he can assume when neeeded?, and does he have the old Inchoroi body? I tend to think it’s a host he occupies, just like he appears to Esmenet in Sumna and sleeps with her in the form of a man. In the TTF, he brags to Cnaiur and shows him his power, and one of the images he flashes to him is of a monstrosity with high set wings, another occurrence that leads me to believe he does have a Inchoroi body somewhere, that he is not trapped in a bird body.

4. The Warrior- Prophet is the best book of the three.

5. I feel like the Fanim could have been given more “screen time†in the book. Basically, they seem to be there solely for the purpose of being slaughtered. I assume we are also going to miss entirely Kellhus’s domination of them as well. Is he going to incorporate things from Fane’s relgion in to his new system so that he can wield the Fanim as well?

6.I know Kellhus learning the Gnosis exponentially increased his personal power, but do you think it was worth it for the vulnerability to chorae?

7. Are all skin-spies male? Are all Inchoroi male? Is the skin-spy as Serwe that Cnaiur sleeps with sporting a penis?

8. Also, can Bakker go ten pages without mentioning semen?

9. How did Sakarpus survive the Apocalypse?

10. Are the Ketyai peoples dark-featured Mediterranean types or are they black? It seems like the Sasyothai (spelling is wrong I know) are the black skinned race, yet several times the Nilnameshi are described as having black skin. Yet in the dictionary they are listed as a Ketyai nation? On that note I hope we get to see Zeum. Which race of Bakker’s would correlate to Asiatic in our world? Are they the tribe that never crossed over into Earwa?

11.Bakker needs to introduce some cool Nimil swords, because fantasy nerds love cool swords made out of uber-metal.

12. I hope Kellhus dies an agonizing death.

13. The ending of the last book, with Achamian telling everybody to fuck off is one of the best endings ever. I hope, and I think he will still have a major role to play in the future books.

End rant.

[Shryke]

1. The Nonmen :Very interesting, very tragic, and I especially want to see more of Mekeritrig. Yet…ultimately I cannot feel sorry for them at all. Their race is ultimately doomed (though I suppose they can only be killed off either violently or accidentally? Since they cannot die of old age), and their reaction to this is to nihilistically and apathetically serve the forces of evil simply for the sake of memory? Too bad they don’t have the courage to just deal with their lack of memory or better yet kill themselves. They KNOW what they are doing is wrong, but they do it anyway. That whole scene with Mekeritrig and Seswatha at Dagliash is wonderfully written, and points all this out. Mek basically admits it hurts him deeply to do what he does but he needs to for the sake of having something to remember. How selfish is that?

Only SOME of the Non-men are doing that. They're called Erratics. And they'll do pretty much anything to have something to remember. Mekeritrig himself fought both for and against the Consult multiple times. They are ... Erratic. They have no sides and will switch from one to the other at a moment notice.

The vast majority of the Non-men left are holed up in the far north in their last remaining Mansion, desperately trying to hold on to their civilization.

2. I still don’t understand the Inchoroi/Consult plan. How do you “close off†the world from the Outside? Why would the rules of damnation no longer apply if you somehow managed to kill off everyone on the planet (which would be very difficult to do anyway)? Let’s assume for the sake of discussion the Christian God is real. If something disastrous happened, and I was the last man on Earth, whenever I died, I would assume all the rules would still apply. I wouldn’t get a free pass to Heaven just because I was the only person left, would I?

Also, are the Inchoroi damned on whatever planet they came from, or do God’s and their powers only apply to individual planet’s themselves?

It's unclear the exact mechanics of their plan. But the basic idea is in Kelhuss' conversation with Akka about sorcery. Souls are holes in the world. And they are, in the end, the only way for the Outside to effect the world itself. So the idea is soemthing like "If you close all those holes, you can create an area where the Outside cannot effect the world. And therefore, eternal damnation is no longer a possiblity for those inside that area."

Also, killing everyone on the planet isn't that hard when you've got the No-God on your side, who prevents anything with a soul from breeding.

3. Aurang and Aurax… It seems clear to me that the monstrosity we see at the end of Warrior Prophet is the true, original form of the Inchoroi. Whichever brother that is, I forget, but the other takes the form of the bird Synthese. Is that simply a host form he can assume when neeeded?, and does he have the old Inchoroi body? I tend to think it’s a host he occupies, just like he appears to Esmenet in Sumna and sleeps with her in the form of a man. In the TTF, he brags to Cnaiur and shows him his power, and one of the images he flashes to him is of a monstrosity with high set wings, another occurrence that leads me to believe he does have a Inchoroi body somewhere, that he is not trapped in a bird body.

Not sure on this. Their may be some truth to it, but the Non-men legends seem to indicate that their flesh might be .. malliable. We'll find out more later I'm sure.

4. The Warrior- Prophet is the best book of the three.

I liked TTT the best.

5. I feel like the Fanim could have been given more “screen time†in the book. Basically, they seem to be there solely for the purpose of being slaughtered. I assume we are also going to miss entirely Kellhus’s domination of them as well. Is he going to incorporate things from Fane’s relgion in to his new system so that he can wield the Fanim as well?

Not sure on this. I didn't think we missed much from the Fanim. I got enough sense of who they were from the bits we saw. But yes, in terms of Moenghus'/Kelhuss' plan, the Fanim were an obsticle to be removed, nothing more.

6.I know Kellhus learning the Gnosis exponentially increased his personal power, but do you think it was worth it for the vulnerability to chorae?

We shall see.

7. Are all skin-spies male? Are all Inchoroi male? Is the skin-spy as Serwe that Cnaiur sleeps with sporting a penis?

I don't know actually. I THINK they can switch genders fluidly. I'm still wondering why they needed to steal someones face.

8. Also, can Bakker go ten pages without mentioning semen?

Yes, but only when he tries really hard.

9. How did Sakarpus survive the Apocalypse?

No clue. Too out of the way?

10. Are the Ketyai peoples dark-featured Mediterranean types or are they black? It seems like the Sasyothai (spelling is wrong I know) are the black skinned race, yet several times the Nilnameshi are described as having black skin. Yet in the dictionary they are listed as a Ketyai nation? On that note I hope we get to see Zeum. Which race of Bakker’s would correlate to Asiatic in our world? Are they the tribe that never crossed over into Earwa?

Hmm, trying to remember all of this.

The Zeumi (?) are black-skinned as far as I remember and we'll see more of them in the future.

The Ketyai are, afaik, brown skinned medetarranian types.

Yes, their are tribes that never crossed over into Earwa. And I think they may come out to play later in the series. Those, I think, look asian, although I may be wrong on that.

I asked Bakker about a bunch of this back on Three-Seas forums and he answered a bunch of it.

11.Bakker needs to introduce some cool Nimil swords, because fantasy nerds love cool swords made out of uber-metal.

Much more Non-men in the next book apparently, so I'm sure your wish will be granted.

12. I hope Kellhus dies an agonizing death.

Hehe.

13. The ending of the last book, with Achamian telling everybody to fuck off is one of the best endings ever. I hope, and I think he will still have a major role to play in the future books.

Agreed. And yes, we'll see much more of Akka. In the next book, I believe he's on the hunt for the Heron Spear and trying to convince everyone that Kelhuss is a dick.

[Shryke]

Ok, I got the race thing down. The language tree in the back of TDTCB is a huge help here.

There's 5 "Tribes of Men".

Norsirai: Blond white people

Ketyai: Brown medeteranian people

Satyothi: Black people

Scylvendi: Dark-haired white people

Xiuhianna: Asian-type people. (This tribe refused to cross into Earwa with the other 4 and still lives in Eanna.

And there's also the Emwama, who were the men who were slaves of the Non-men before the migration into Earwa. They were all slaughtered and almost nothing is known about them.

[Kalbear]

Also, killing everyone on the planet isn't that hard when you've got the No-God on your side, who prevents anything with a soul from breeding.

And Kellhus's hypothesis was that you don't need to kill off everyone; you just need to kill off enough people. There's some tipping point where the Outside won't be accessible any more. Kind of like a piece of fabric; fabric has a bunch of tiny holes in it, but unless you make a big hole it won't let most things through.

[Jacen]

Shryke, thanks for your thoughts:

Yeah, I should have mentioned I do realize only the Erratics behave that way, was just saying that i think the erractics have a pathetic excuse of their actions.. We really don't know what the other Nonmen have been up to all these years.

(btw love the bit about how the Quya have used sorcery for so long they start to salt if a chorae is even near them)

Also, I didn't consider the No-God's ability to cause all children to be born dead. Assuming the No-God can survive long enough without being shot by a laser/heron spear, that would eventually insure the death of everyone on the planet, not counting the Nonmen.

As for the damnation issue, what you say makes sense. If they kill everybody off and they are immortal, the Outside has no power whatsoever over them. But on the other hand, since the Inchoroi are immortal and don't plan on dying,would damnation be a factor for them? Or is this their insurance policy in case they get offed? I would assume the ill effects of damnation require one to...well, die, right?

Can't wait to find out how this all works...

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

1. The Nonmen :Very interesting, very tragic, and I especially want to see more of Mekeritrig. Yet…ultimately I cannot feel sorry for them at all. Their race is ultimately doomed (though I suppose they can only be killed off either violently or accidentally? Since they cannot die of old age), and their reaction to this is to nihilistically and apathetically serve the forces of evil simply for the sake of memory? Too bad they don’t have the courage to just deal with their lack of memory or better yet kill themselves. They KNOW what they are doing is wrong, but they do it anyway. That whole scene with Mekeritrig and Seswatha at Dagliash is wonderfully written, and points all this out. Mek basically admits it hurts him deeply to do what he does but he needs to for the sake of having something to remember. How selfish is that?

One thing which seems strange to me is that we know that union between Men and Nonmen is sometimes fertile (only rarely so, but still). OK, Nonmen despise humans considering themselves superior race, I can believe that, but shouldn't at least some of them try to breed halfbreeds, so their race can survive, however impure?

2. I still don’t understand the Inchoroi/Consult plan. How do you “close off†the world from the Outside? Why would the rules of damnation no longer apply if you somehow managed to kill off everyone on the planet (which would be very difficult to do anyway)? Let’s assume for the sake of discussion the Christian God is real. If something disastrous happened, and I was the last man on Earth, whenever I died, I would assume all the rules would still apply. I wouldn’t get a free pass to Heaven just because I was the only person left, would I?

Also, are the Inchoroi damned on whatever planet they came from, or do God’s and their powers only apply to individual planet’s themselves?

Well, previous posters explained it quite satisfactorily, IMHO. Also, we should remember Earwa's God is not Christian God i. e. he isn't really omnipotent, but presumably has to obey laws of sorcery, such as they are.

3. Aurang and Aurax… It seems clear to me that the monstrosity we see at the end of Warrior Prophet is the true, original form of the Inchoroi. Whichever brother that is, I forget, but the other takes the form of the bird Synthese. Is that simply a host form he can assume when neeeded?, and does he have the old Inchoroi body? I tend to think it’s a host he occupies, just like he appears to Esmenet in Sumna and sleeps with her in the form of a man. In the TTF, he brags to Cnaiur and shows him his power, and one of the images he flashes to him is of a monstrosity with high set wings, another occurrence that leads me to believe he does have a Inchoroi body somewhere, that he is not trapped in a bird body.

End rant.

Yes, I also think the body we see at the ending of TWP is original Inchoroi form. It is mentioned in appendices that Inchoroi were winged monstrosities. I suspect that after all those thousand years their original bodies are rather worse for the wear, though.

7. Are all skin-spies male? Are all Inchoroi male? Is the skin-spy as Serwe that Cnaiur sleeps with sporting a penis?

End rant.

Yes, all Inchoroi and their constructs appear to be male. Not Sranc, though, because they evidently breed the natural way - but Srancs are supposed to be warped Nonmen, like Orcs in Tolkien, not totally artificial beings. Still, my crazy theory is that Inchoroi get rid of their females in long gone past, and they actually thought they are helping Nonmen by doing the same for them.

13. The ending of the last book, with Achamian telling everybody to fuck off is one of the best endings ever. I hope, and I think he will still have a major role to play in the future books.

End rant.

Seconded.

[Tarapas Amran]

One comment:

Sakarpus survived by design, it was to be a recruiting ground for the consult in terms of the few. I guess, despite the chorae they still needed sorcerers. In time, should the consult have proven victorious they would probably have slaughtered the population, but first they had a world to slay.

(And wasn't there a big chorae hord there aswell?)

[Shryke]

Aye, I think your right. That is the city with the huge hoard of Chorae.

Arithau, the other city that survived, is built on "anarcane" ground which apparently renders sorcery impotent.

[Jacen]

It's all pure speculation at this point, but it seems odd those two important Northern cities survived, surely the Consult had enough conventional forces to take the cities? They would have marched right past them as they went south to sack Kyraneas, and eventually the failure at Mengaedda.

[Shryke]

It's all pure speculation at this point, but it seems odd those two important Northern cities survived, surely the Consult had enough conventional forces to take the cities? They would have marched right past them as they went south to sack Kyraneas, and eventually the failure at Mengaedda.

I'm guessing it's the anti sorcery thing.

One is built on anarcane ground and the other has the world's biggest horde of chorae (as far as I remember).

That would be your comminality.

Why that matters? I'm sure we'll find out.

[Jacen]

Well, why would they have to use magic to take the cities? They got plenty of Sranc, bashrag, dragons, and scylvendi.

we shall see I guess.

[delete this account pls]

10. Are the Ketyai peoples dark-featured Mediterranean types or are they black? It seems like the Sasyothai (spelling is wrong I know) are the black skinned race, yet several times the Nilnameshi are described as having black skin. Yet in the dictionary they are listed as a Ketyai nation? On that note I hope we get to see Zeum. Which race of Bakker’s would correlate to Asiatic in our world? Are they the tribe that never crossed over into Earwa?

Shryke pretty much covered this I think. Nansur, Conriya, Ainon, the Fanim, Girgash and Nilnamesh are all Ketyai. Galeoth, Thunyerus, and Ce Tydonn are Norsirai. Zeum are Sayoti or however it's spelled and the Scylvendi are their own race.

13. The ending of the last book, with Achamian telling everybody to fuck off is one of the best endings ever. I hope, and I think he will still have a major role to play in the future books.

Oh yes. Those two guys that bow to him? And he SPITS on them? That was so full of awesome it's not even funny.