BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Gold Storm]

Well, why would they have to use magic to take the cities? They got plenty of Sranc, bashrag, dragons, and scylvendi.

we shall see I guess.

Could be the ground that the cities are built on, maybe something that hurts their magic or deflects their creatures like dragons and sranc or something like that. It could be where Achamian goes to find out more about the Apocalypse and Kellus.

[Lies And Perfidy]

I suspect that the anarcane ground might weaken or destroy the No-God's power over the Sranc and other minions, and reduce them to a gibbering horde (as opposed to a gibbering horde with purpose.)

[koudoulis]

i am also rereading PoN (slowly though) and was thinking about seswatha. they have his heart under attyersus which clearly is an artifact of sorts, containing his soul maybe? and also bakker says that seswatha lives inside every mandate schoolman. does this mean that seswatha isnt entirely dead and has appointed his soul to agonize every night until the second apocalypse comes? that woud be one hell of a torture

i have yet to imagine a satisfing and appropriate end for kehllus and cant blame the book for lack of brutal deaths

[Paxter]

5. I feel like the Fanim could have been given more “screen time†in the book. Basically, they seem to be there solely for the purpose of being slaughtered. I assume we are also going to miss entirely Kellhus’s domination of them as well. Is he going to incorporate things from Fane’s relgion in to his new system so that he can wield the Fanim as well?

I agree. Apart from one (awesome) scene where Skauras meets his end after the Battle of Anwurat and the scene where Xerius meets up with the Chishaurim, we really see nothing of the Fanim in the whole series. They really are just there to get slaughtered while Bakker pays a lot more attention to the conflict with the Consult and the two love triangles (Kellhus+Akka+Esmi and Kellhus+Cnaiur+Serwe).

12. I hope Kellhus dies an agonizing death.

...at the hands of Akka. Agreed.

[Liffguard]

12. I hope Kellhus dies an agonizing death.

I've heard this sentiment crop up a lot and personally I don't really get it. Sure, by regular human standards he's done some horrible things and comes off as extremely arrogant and, yeah, basically a dick. But I find I can't really hate him in the same way because I don't really see him as human. Of course, he's biologically a homo sapien but psychologically, culturally and morally he's an alien, raised by a completely isolated culture of passionless utilitarians. I just don't see it as productive to hold the character to our standards.

[Tears of Lys]

I don't get the Kellhus hate either. Especially since it seems as though he's the only hope the humanity of Earwa has. Even with his cold and calculating skills, you still see flashes of humanity (or weaknesses) once in a while - which is a wonder, when you think about it.

I wonder too how the relationship between he and Akka is going to play out in the finale. Is Kellhus going to be the savior? or Akka? or will there even be a savior?

[Kalbear]

I'd like to see Kellhus taken down because he is, simply, a villain. He's a sociopathic monster. And even if it dooms humanity, it's still very human to destroy him.

Yes, I also think the body we see at the ending of TWP is original Inchoroi form. It is mentioned in appendices that Inchoroi were winged monstrosities. I suspect that after all those thousand years their original bodies are rather worse for the wear, though.

I don't think Inchoroi have an 'original' form any more. I think Aurax's form at the end of TWP is just another thing that they used, a battle form or commander form, just like the synthese is more of a spy form. Remember that when the first nonmen met the Inchoroi they didn't have mouths to even speak; they had to shape themselves so that they could actually talk with the Nonmen.

My suspicion is that the Inchoroi are beyond a specific flesh form. Flesh is mutable and ephemeral to them, the way clothes are to us. Flesh is simply a means of getting something special done. Hence their tastes; they can change into bodies like taking a recreational drug.

[TakLoufer]

I don't get the Kellhus hate either. Especially since it seems as though he's the only hope the humanity of Earwa has. Even with his cold and calculating skills, you still see flashes of humanity (or weaknesses) once in a while - which is a wonder, when you think about it.

I wonder too how the relationship between he and Akka is going to play out in the finale. Is Kellhus going to be the savior? or Akka? or will there even be a savior?

I always thought one of the most saddest parts of TWP was when Kellhus was strapped to Serwe's body on the Circumfix and starts to weep but doesn't understand what he's doing.

Kellhus definately has humanity, it's just that the Dunyain conditioning has left it repressed.

[Jacen]

Alright, perhaps I was a little harsh on Kellhus. I'm not sure I really want an agonizing death for him. I just do not understand what motivates a character like him. Why is he bothering with any of this? Isn't the sole goal of the Dunyain to obtain the absolute? But he is not just a Dunyain anymore is he?

If, that is true, what changed him? The circumfixion?. Does he care about anyone or anything? Is leading the fight against the Consult merely an attempt at self preservation, or does he now actually care about humanity, and want it to survive? Does he really believe any of this Warrior-Prophet biz, or is it merely, yet again, another tool he masterfully uses to claim dominion over people?

He shows some signs of wanting to change mankind for the better by enlightening them, , by explaining and showing to them some of the concepts behind the Dunyain's philosophy, but all of that seems ultimately self-serving. Even still, the common people will never be anything like him because they lack both the breeding and the demented training to become true Dunyain. Nor would Kellhus want them to become too self-aware, because then more people might see through his sham. Also, many of his "revelations" are done merely for the sake of granting him more power, more access, more false-divinity and ultimate trust in his leadership and teachings. We can see that with his removing the taint of damnation from sorcerors and raising the status of women. Both of those moves are to secure more power. Now, he can wield and attract powerful sorcerers to his banner with no negative social effects, he can get rid of the divisive schools and religious hatred towards them, and he can employ intelligent women like Esmenet in roles they previously would have been barred from. Everything he does that seems kind or benevolent or liberating is truly not, beneath the surface.

In the Thousand Fold Thought, he treats Akka so gently, so respectfully. Is this because he feels bad about stealing Esmenet from him? No, he just needs to soothe Akka's wounds so that he can learn the Gnosis. In turn, does Kellhus truly love Esmenet? No, he just recognizes that her strength and intelligence make her a prime candidate for breeding him powerful sons. There are hundreds of more examples of these types of actions in the books, I need not repeat them here.

It's difficult to describe what it is about Kellhus that makes me dislike him so. Perhaps it is the numerous occassions when he shows a remarkable cruelty and callousness towards those who have ceased to be useful to him. Leweth is but the first example of this. Or, maybe it is just the fact that I don't like phony people, and he is the ultimate phony. He uses everyone to serve his own ends, does nothing that doesn't somehow benefit him. In our own lives, we could all better our lives by trying to act more rationally, logically, and intelligently. There IS something to be said for cold, logically made decisions, for questioning the origin of our own thoughts and feelings. But the Dunyain take it way too far. What good is supreme logic without a heart? As much as custom, history, and passion damn us, they also give meaning to our lives and make us human.

I don't know if I want an agonizing death for Kellhus, but how about an agonizing feeling? I want something to hurt him, or move him, or cause regret, and if that never happens then he truly is as alien as the Inchoroi and beyond our understanding.

Achamian once said that is was doubt, and not truth, that set's one free. The Dunyain know nothing of doubt.

[Kalbear]

In this, I think that Bakker has set up an odd choice. Go with Kellhus and save humanity at the cost of them having a sociopathic, power hungry monster as their leader (and setting them up for years of God-emperor type rule) or go with the Consult/Dunyain and have most of humanity wiped out.

What I want is the third choice - Akka's choice. I want the rejection of Kellhus' false morality and objectivism, and I want the rejection of genocide. I want the removal of the Consult as an issue and the removal of those who would callously manipulate humanity like so many pieces.

[Shryke]

Alright, perhaps I was a little harsh on Kellhus. I'm not sure I really want an agonizing death for him. I just do not understand what motivates a character like him. Why is he bothering with any of this? Isn't the sole goal of the Dunyain to obtain the absolute? But he is not just a Dunyain anymore is he?

If, that is true, what changed him? The circumfixion?. Does he care about anyone or anything? Is leading the fight against the Consult merely an attempt at self preservation, or does he now actually care about humanity, and want it to survive? Does he really believe any of this Warrior-Prophet biz, or is it merely, yet again, another tool he masterfully uses to claim dominion over people?

The thing is that at the end, we don't know anymore. He seems to have come to believe in himself as teh savior of humanity. Or maybe not. We're deliberately left wondering.

But at the end, when his father calls him Dunyain he says "No, I am more.".

/shurg

We'll see.

[Jacen]

That is all true Shryke, Bakker deliberately gives us less and less insight into Kellhus's thought process.

Which could be a blessing in itself, hopefully in the next book series we will not have to read about how amazing, penetratingly intelligent, insightful, skillfull and god-like Kellhus is every couple of pages.

[Happy Ent]

The thing is that at the end, we don't know anymore. He seems to have come to believe in himself as teh savior of humanity. Or maybe not. We're deliberately left wondering.

No we’re not. When he leaves the final battle to confront his father, a twig is caught in his sandal. (This also happens in book 1, if I remember correctly.) He considers the twig. One one of the branches is a leaf. Or something like that. Maybe I’m making it up now. But the imagery is that he decides right there that the two paths are not equal.

Up to that moment, I’m not sure if he really committed to one branch or the other: help his father or kill him. But he chooses, in the terminology of that other great author of epic fantasy with a strong philosophical undercurrent, life. All the tree-metaphors of Dunyain thinking converge to that single decision. Two branches. One death, the other life. Kellhus makes the choice.

(I need to find the exact quote to see how much I’m making up here…)

[Shryke]

No we’re not. When he leaves the final battle to confront his father, a twig is caught in his sandal. (This also happens in book 1, if I remember correctly.) He considers the twig. One one of the branches is a leaf. Or something like that. Maybe I’m making it up now. But the imagery is that he decides right there that the two paths are not equal.

Up to that moment, I’m not sure if he really committed to one branch or the other: help his father or kill him. But he chooses, in the terminology of that other great author of epic fantasy with a strong philosophical undercurrent, life. All the tree-metaphors of Dunyain thinking converge to that single decision. Two branches. One death, the other life. Kellhus makes the choice.

(I need to find the exact quote to see how much I’m making up here…)

Ahh yes, your right. I always forget that bit.

[Tears of Lys]

That is all true Shryke, Bakker deliberately gives us less and less insight into Kellhus's thought process.

Which could be a blessing in itself, hopefully in the next book series we will not have to read about how amazing, penetratingly intelligent, insightful, skillfull and god-like Kellhus is every couple of pages.

That's most definitely a reason why so many can't stand him! Seeing him through others' eyes, worshipfully, while knowing what Cnaiur knows, makes the reader feel towards him as Akka does now.

But he's been changing throughout all three books - subtly, but steadily. He can't help but change. If the Dunyain were concerned about the contamination that Moenghus' contact threatened, then what contamination does contact with the world do to Kellhus? The Dunyain's programming is powerful, but once outside Ishtual, he's open to other influences. True, he's not a young man, 35-ish, IIRC, and so his character is formed, but he's not frozen. You can see, for example, how he's surprised by the fact that the Dunyain have been wrong about things such as sorcery. Given that "mistake," is it impossible for him to question them on other issues? So far, their teachings have served him well in getting what he wants and/or needs; but why does Bakker make him an Anasurimbor? If a Dunyain was all that was needed to get across the point of the story, then why link him to this powerful past? He IS definitely "more."

[delete this account pls]

Yeah, as others said I don't think we know enough about Kellhus anymore to guess at what his motivations are. He gets more and more distant from the reader as the series continues, I think.

I don't think it's wrong to hate him, but I guess I just don't feel that way. I see what kal is sayingabout him being a sociopathic monster, but then I think - who are the alternatives? Cnauir? A rapist mass murderer. Conphas or Xerius? Eleazaras? Saubon? Of all the possible Three Seas leaders, only Proyas seems vaguely stable, and even he has a lot of problems.

I like the solution Kal proposes - choosing the third path like Akka has done, but it remains to be seen how successful he'll be. And if Bakker is setting up Akka as the modern Seswatha ... well, Ses didn't exactly have clean hands.

[Shryke]

Actually, Happy Ent is right. Well we may not fully understand his reasons, at this point he has committed himself to saving humanity.

That's what the 2nd "Twig in the sandal" scene is showing.

In the first time, in the prologue, he pulls it out of his sandal and stares for hours at the myriad branching paths.

The second time, at the end, he pulls it out, and sees one side bare and the other side with a leaf. And he follows the branching paths again for a moment, but as he does so he thinks "But the paths were not equal".

He's come, in some way, to care about which way he's taking humanity.

[delete this account pls]

I agree, but I don't think we know *why* he's chosen this path - whether he actually now believes his own PR or not. Kel's thinking becomes more obscure during the latter half of WP and throughout TTT, and now even we don't know how much of what he does is Dunyain manipulation or actual miracles (the heart ripping thing, finding water in the desert, etc)

[Shryke]

Yeah, the question now is what does he believe himself to be.

And, more importantly, is he really the Savior or not?

[Happy Ent]

(continued from this thread.)

One of the things I like about Thorsten’s theory is that it addresses a questions we’ve mulled over on this board a few times: Were the Inches already doomed on their home planet?

Expanding on Thorsten: no. Each world, Eärwa and Inchworld, has its own bubble of ethics, locally shaped by the consciousnesses of the inhabitants. The Outside of Inchworld must be a pretty funky place!