Yet another frakkin' BSG thread

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1361873' date='May 20 2008, 08.56']I have no problem (well I do, but at least they're consistent) with them continuing to play Adama as the forgiving sap. Its just that they don't even address that shit in this episode. Usually they have Adama frowning and talking tough for half the episode before he inevitably gives in. Here there was nothing. It was just ignored.[/quote]

True, but do the producers really need to devote screen time to Adama doing what we already expect him to do? Personally, I'm more interested in learning new things than in seeing Adama, once again, let one of his crewmen off the hook. We [i]know [/i]he does that.

Also, never forget that Adama has to be very careful how he handles this matter. [i]Demetrius[/i] wasn't supposed to be out there in the first place, and certainly not chasing down Kara Thrace's visions of Earth. If Adama makes a big deal of what happened, the whole stinking mess will come tumbling into view, and then Roslin will have to deal with it.

[Wouter]

[quote name='lotuspixie' post='1361394' date='May 20 2008, 05.28']I enjoy a story being told, and enjoy watching characters exist and go about their daily lives in the universe created by the writers. why does everything have be a piece of the puzzle?[/quote]
I agree with the sentiment (hey, I like "Feast for Crows" and early to mid books in "The Wheel of Time"), Gaeta's song for example was moving and that's enough for me, whether it is plot relevant or not (and I'm not convinced it isn't).

However, BSG standalones like Black Market and especially The woman King just weren't done very well. Star Trek and SG1 do standalones much better than BSG does, also because their universe is pretty much designed for it. The problem is that there are only 2 possible ways to go with stories in BSG: trouble within the fleet or trouble with the Cylons. They can't go to a "casino planet" and meet aliens, at least not in re-imagined BSG.

With only one season remaining and many loose ends to tie up, people understandably are looking for progress on relevant plot points and big moments for characters that aren't done yet with their specific tale.

[Wouter]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1361873' date='May 20 2008, 15.56']The deal is sweet. Than have the GB (Genocidal Bitch) sell it on those terms. Don't give a worthless, sappy speech about mortality that makes no sense except in a TV universe where such nonsense is common and always converts the masses. (I fucking hate most TV/film speeches. They're almost always drivel and they almost always work. Cept for the 'call to arms/kill the enemies/go to war' speeches. Those are usually ok) GB should have just laid out the advantages frankly and directly and called it a day. 'I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but how can you pass this up?' sort of thing.[/quote]
Agreed 100%. I'm a bit disturbed by Natalie's speech, because I have the impression that we (the audience) are supposed to take it quite seriously, but what she said made very little sense. As if we would want to be mortal - Roslin especially should have a big problem with that, if she could have her own resurrection process she wouldn't be undergoing chemical treatment now! That life only has meaning if there is death? Not true. What would Gaeta say if you told him that having a leg only has meaning if you have to lose it at some point? I'd think he'd strike you.

It only makes sense if you view it from a very religious point of view (that is, not dying stops you from reaching God or some such). That's why it's at least consistent for the very religious number 6, and the similarly loopy models 2 and 3 (8 and 5 appear to be more lukewarm believers, while 1 and possibly 4 seem more like atheists). So I could at least believe she herself believed what she was saying, weird as this Cylon model is. If you have to play devil's advocate for the Cylons, the best defense would probably be to insist they're insane and as such not really responsible for their actions. Cause most of them seem to be batshit crazy.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1362301' date='May 20 2008, 13.06']Agreed 100%. I'm a bit disturbed by Natalie's speech, because I have the impression that we (the audience) are supposed to take it quite seriously, but what she said made very little sense. As if we would want to be mortal - Roslin especially should have a big problem with that, if she could have her own resurrection process she wouldn't be undergoing chemical treatment now! That life only has meaning if there is death? Not true. What would Gaeta say if you told him that having a leg only has meaning if you have to lose it at some point? I'd think he'd strike you.[/quote]
I can honestly say that I have been on the brink of death and that doing so made me value my life all the more. I can also say that being close to death was something that made me re-evaluate myself and what I value. There is something to that, that we really don't "know" how valuable something is until we are confronted with the fact that it can easily be taken away.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1362301' date='May 20 2008, 13.06']Agreed 100%. I'm a bit disturbed by Natalie's speech, because I have the impression that we (the audience) are supposed to take it quite seriously, but what she said made very little sense. As if we would want to be mortal - Roslin especially should have a big problem with that, if she could have her own resurrection process she wouldn't be undergoing chemical treatment now! That life only has meaning if there is death? Not true. What would Gaeta say if you told him that having a leg only has meaning if you have to lose it at some point? I'd think he'd strike you.

It only makes sense if you view it from a very religious point of view (that is, not dying stops you from reaching God or some such). That's why it's at least consistent for the very religious number 6, and the similarly loopy models 2 and 3 (8 and 5 appear to be more lukewarm believers, while 1 and possibly 4 seem more like atheists). So I could at least believe she herself believed what she was saying, weird as this Cylon model is. If you have to play devil's advocate for the Cylons, the best defense would probably be to insist they're insane and as such not really responsible for their actions. Cause most of them seem to be batshit crazy.[/quote]

YOU don't have to buy the reasoning. You just have to buy that the character buys her own reasoning. I'm sure Roslin thinks it's mostly shit, but why say so to her face? It gains you nothing, and potentially loses you a very sweet deal.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1362310' date='May 20 2008, 13.14']I can honestly say that I have been on the brink of death and that doing so made me value my life all the more. I can also say that being close to death was something that made me re-evaluate myself and what I value. There is something to that, that we really don't "know" how valuable something is until we are confronted with the fact that it can easily be taken away.[/quote]

There's something else I have noticed in regards to this. The more time you have, the less you get done. I've seen that time and time again in both my personal and professional life, and from a variety of people. People are always saying, "Oh, someday I'll do that," and then of course they never do, until they're vividly reminded of their own mortality. When I imagine a race that [i]has [/i]no mortality of which to be reminded...well, I envision a bunch of people who don't do much, don't change much, don't accomplish much. And, if you think about it, the Cylons have accomplished nothing that isn't related to humanity. Everything they do, and the only thing they do, is related to their creators. They made themselves look like humans, they live to kill humans, they want to live on a human world...it's ridiculous.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]YOU don't have to buy the reasoning. You just have to buy that the character buys her own reasoning. I'm sure Roslin thinks it's mostly shit, but why say so to her face? It gains you nothing, and potentially loses you a very sweet deal.[/quote]

Just what the hell was her reasoning though? In my mind that speech ranks up there with the Ms. Teen America abomination as one of the dumbest things to ever pass through human (or cylon) lips. Why the hell should the governing council of a species you nearly exterminated give a shit about your personal growth? Why would even a semi-nuts religious fanatic believe that would be persuasive?

And what was the Council's reasoning in remaining silent before, during, and after...something they absolutely never do. If I were confronted with such idiocy from a mass murderer seeking my aid, you'd bet there'd be a fricken reaction.

I don't buy the internal 'show' explanations. This is bad writing, nothing more. TV speeches that make no points, serve no purpose, yet still succeed in convincing others are an awful cliche that the medium should be permanently barred from using. Oddly enough, BSG was one of the few shows able to produce one of those speeches that actually made a valid point and could conceivably have worked. (Boy Adama: 'We're not a government, we're a gang'...or something like that)

[Shryke]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1362349' date='May 20 2008, 14.38']Just what the hell was her reasoning though? In my mind that speech ranks up there with the Ms. Teen America abomination as one of the dumbest things to ever pass through human (or cylon) lips. Why the hell should the governing council of a species you nearly exterminated give a shit about your personal growth? Why would even a semi-nuts religious fanatic believe that would be persuasive?[/quote]

Why wouldn't she? People in the real world believer alot stupider things. And the Cylons have always been immature and they've never really understood humanity that well. I imagine their lack of mortality makes understanding concepts like "genocide" on the same level we do damn near impossible.

[quote]And what was the Council's reasoning in remaining silent before, during, and after...something they absolutely never do. If I were confronted with such idiocy from a mass murderer seeking my aid, you'd bet there'd be a fricken reaction.[/quote]

They were stunned by her naivete? They knew better then to open their mouths and potentially fuck up a good deal? Roslin made it explicit at the start that this was an explanation, not a Q&A?

[quote]I don't buy the internal 'show' explanations. This is bad writing, nothing more. TV speeches that make no points, serve no purpose, yet still succeed in convincing others are an awful cliche that the medium should be permanently barred from using. Oddly enough, BSG was one of the few shows able to produce one of those speeches that actually made a valid point and could conceivably have worked. (Boy Adama: 'We're not a government, we're a gang'...or something like that)[/quote]

Who was convinced? The speech did a great job of showing the Cylons point of view on the subject. Whether any of the Quorum swallowed it isn't really known. We know Roslin certainly didn't.

[TrackerNeil]

EHK -

Although I see your point, like Shryke I agree that sometimes dialogue is as much for the benefit of the viewers as the storyline. The writers clearly felt we, the audience, needed to hear about this shift in Cylon thinking so as to better understand them. And we do.

Also, Cylon thinking is a bit strange in itself. Remember when Rebel Six was trying to convince the Two and the Eight not to take hostages, as they'd planned? Her reasoning was not that the humans deserved better, but that the Cylons [i]shouldn't sink to that level[/i]. A race that had committed genocide, conducted scientific experiments on sentient creatures, tried to enslave a refugee people they'd promised to leave alone has this idea that they hold the moral high ground. Although I think that's downright crazy, it's pretty consistent with Cylon thinking. In the Cylon mind, they can do no wrong, or even if they do they're still better than humans. ::shakes head:: Crazy.

[Shryke]

It's not just for our benefit. It's perfectly consistent with their character.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]It's not just for our benefit. It's perfectly consistent with their character.[/quote]

Which doesn't stop it from being perfectly stupid. Nor does it make the Council reaction any less baffling. I just wish that writers would sit down and ask themselves 'how would this character (or if they're not developed, how would an ordinary person) react in this situation?' And if the 'must advance this plot point' reaction doesn't fit, than they should find a way to make it fit. And if that's not possible, chuck the damned plotline and go another way. I'm sick of this 'round peg in the square hole', and 'when all else fails, use magic' style of writing.

[quote]Her reasoning was not that the humans deserved better, but that the Cylons shouldn't sink to that level. A race that had committed genocide, conducted scientific experiments on sentient creatures, tried to enslave a refugee people they'd promised to leave alone has this idea that they hold the moral high ground. Although I think that's downright crazy, it's pretty consistent with Cylon thinking.[/quote]

Except I don't think that's the message RDM wants us to take away from that. Given his past heavy-handedness, I suspect the intended message is 'hey look, the Cylons backed off of betrayal while humans didn't. They're not so different from us, eh? Maybe we're worse, EH!?' He's been shooting for moral ambiguity all the damned time whether it fits the context or not. I also doubt he intended that speech to be the irrelevant ramblings of a religious fanatic, but rather a thoughtful and moving speech that won over the council and audience alike. All of this 'in character' crap (whether true or not) seems little more than fan rationalization. Yeah it might make SLIGHT sense in that context, but I doubt that's what they were shooting for.

[Shryke]

Or your idea that it's supposed to be a "thoughtful and moving speech that won over the council and audience alike" is nothing but rationalization.

We'll see how it develops.

[Wouter]

The problem is that they started the series with a genocide, for which the Cylons had no reasons (but extreme religious fanatism and some vague revenge feelings from a 40-year old war). They probably had to, because the original BSG started this way, and they couldn't very well have it be BSG and not do it.

But indeed, I think RDM wanted to gun for ambiguity from the very start. And now he is trying to ignore the genocide as much as possible, because he regrets they used this to start the show (as powerful as it made the miniseries, it makes developping complex and sometimes sympathetic antagonists difficult). I also think this is part of the reason we quite often see character say "remember how bad New Caprica (Iraq) was, what they did to us there!" but very rarely do we see someone referring to the actual holocaust. The show tries to ignore its premise at times, a bit like Voyager, ironically enough.

But in the end, both BSG and Voyager are enjoyable (though very different, Voyager being a standalone champ) shows if you can live with the somewhat warped/failed original premise being mostly ignored.

[Shryke]

The Cylons thought Humanity was a flawed creation that they were to replace.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1362544' date='May 20 2008, 14.33']Except I don't think that's the message RDM wants us to take away from that. Given his past heavy-handedness, I suspect the intended message is 'hey look, the Cylons backed off of betrayal while humans didn't. They're not so different from us, eh? Maybe we're worse, EH!?' He's been shooting for moral ambiguity all the damned time whether it fits the context or not. I also doubt he intended that speech to be the irrelevant ramblings of a religious fanatic, but rather a thoughtful and moving speech that won over the council and audience alike. All of this 'in character' crap (whether true or not) seems little more than fan rationalization. Yeah it might make SLIGHT sense in that context, but I doubt that's what they were shooting for.[/quote]
I actually thought Athena shooting 6 was a counter point to that. It wasn't the humans that betrayed anything, it was a Cylon shooting a Cylon.

[potsherds]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1362485' date='May 20 2008, 19.55']EHK -

Although I see your point, like Shryke I agree that sometimes dialogue is as much for the benefit of the viewers as the storyline. The writers clearly felt we, the audience, needed to hear about this shift in Cylon thinking so as to better understand them. And we do.

Also, Cylon thinking is a bit strange in itself. Remember when Rebel Six was trying to convince the Two and the Eight not to take hostages, as they'd planned? Her reasoning was not that the humans deserved better, but that the Cylons [i]shouldn't sink to that level[/i]. A race that had committed genocide, conducted scientific experiments on sentient creatures, tried to enslave a refugee people they'd promised to leave alone has this idea that they hold the moral high ground. Although I think that's downright crazy, it's pretty consistent with Cylon thinking. In the Cylon mind, they can do no wrong, or even if they do they're still better than humans. ::shakes head:: Crazy.[/quote]
Heh. Religious fundies are certainly crazy. I love the parallel, even after 4 seasons.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

potsherds,

[quote name='potsherds' post='1362700' date='May 20 2008, 17.49']Heh. Religious fundies are certainly crazy. I love the parallel, even after 4 seasons.[/quote]

All of them, eh?

:rolleyes:

[Relic]

[quote name='EnlightenmentHK' post='1362544' date='May 20 2008, 15.33']Which doesn't stop it from being perfectly stupid. Nor does it make the Council reaction any less baffling. I just wish that writers would sit down and ask themselves 'how would this character (or if they're not developed, how would an ordinary person) react in this situation?' And if the 'must advance this plot point' reaction doesn't fit, than they should find a way to make it fit. And if that's not possible, chuck the damned plotline and go another way. I'm sick of this 'round peg in the square hole', and 'when all else fails, use magic' style of writing.



Except I don't think that's the message RDM wants us to take away from that. Given his past heavy-handedness, I suspect the intended message is 'hey look, the Cylons backed off of betrayal while humans didn't. They're not so different from us, eh? Maybe we're worse, EH!?' He's been shooting for moral ambiguity all the damned time whether it fits the context or not. I also doubt he intended that speech to be the irrelevant ramblings of a religious fanatic, but rather a thoughtful and moving speech that won over the council and audience alike. All of this 'in character' crap (whether true or not) seems little more than fan rationalization. Yeah it might make SLIGHT sense in that context, but I doubt that's what they were shooting for.[/quote]


Word.

It's so rare that i read thru one of your posts without rolling my eyes dude

:P

:cheers:

[Xanrn]

Well haven't they turned Lee into an interesting character, yep...

I am now sure, they didn't want to write the character anymore, didn't want to kill him, so turned him into a background character.

He should be a uniform, called Apollo and there in the thick of it with Starbuck. Apollo + Starbuck relationship if one of the best bits of both BSG. But no they fucked it up, to have Lee wear a shit suit and playing politics with thoose idiots who doesn't seem to realise Roslin is a dictator and doesn't give a flying monkey about them however much they babble nonsense.

[Mack Kilimaro]

It is now Tuesday night and there's still no sign of this past Friday's episode on SFC's website. I might have to give in and go read a recap somewhere, because this is just ridiculous.