Nation, by Terry Pratchett

[Werthead]

For me, the worst books were [i]The Last Continent[/i], [i]Carpe Jugulum[/i] and [i]The Fifth Elephant[/i]. [i]Thief of Time [/i]was also really bad. Since then, all of the books have been pretty good, even [i]Monstrous Regiment[/i] IMO.

[Lies And Perfidy]

So uh, I've been living in a cave or something. Someone want to non-spoiler synopsize [i]Nation[/i] for me? Just in the sense of which recurring characters it follows?

[delete this account pls]

Huh, i quite liked Monstrous Regiment, one of my favourite Discworld novels actually. :dunno:

[A Time for Wolves]

Well, it just speaks to Pratchett's talent at appealing to different types of people and readers, if half his readers love Book X and dislike Book Y, while the other half love Book Y and dislike Book X. :)

[kmgrey]

[quote name='Lies And Perfidy' post='1548697' date='Oct 8 2008, 21.13']So uh, I've been living in a cave or something. Someone want to non-spoiler synopsize [i]Nation[/i] for me? Just in the sense of which recurring characters it follows?[/quote]


It's actually not a Discworld novel.

[alguien]

[quote name='Iskaral Pust' post='1548160' date='Oct 8 2008, 13.37']the Tiffany Aching novels were much weaker than [i]Night Watch [/i]and [i]Going Postal[/i]. I enjoyed [i]Making Money[/i], but it was a weak copy of [i]Going Postal[/i]. I enjoyed [i]Thud![/i] a lot (huge fan of Vimes), but it wandered too close to incoherence once or twice.

That said, [i]Nation[/i] sounds great for a fan of [i]Night Watch[/i].[/quote]

Shut yer gob, ye scunner!

Feegles. Are. Awesome.

It is known. :)

Actually love the Nightwatch books just as much though, if not more.

[i]Nation[/i] was great. Finished it in two days. Loved all the knowledge thrown around by Pratchett, loved the homages to Robinson Crusoe and Moby Dick! The humor was good, but the story was better.

Crivens! Between this and Gaiman's Graveyard Book, I've been in reading heaven these past few days...

[Lies And Perfidy]

[quote name='kmgrey' post='1548792' date='Oct 8 2008, 19.23']It's actually not a Discworld novel.[/quote]
Oh, cool. That explains a lot.

[Red Sun]

[quote name='Brady' post='1548740' date='Oct 9 2008, 03.43']Huh, i quite liked Monstrous Regiment, one of my favourite Discworld novels actually. :dunno:[/quote]

I liked it as well. But then, my favorite Discworld novel is Reaper Man, which most people don't like so much.

ETA: I also like Soul Music, mostly, because it introduced the concept of "particles of inspiration", which I find hilariously fitting to the way how inspirations work.

[quote name='Werthead' post='1548610' date='Oct 9 2008, 01.49']For me, the worst books were [i]The Last Continent[/i], [i]Carpe Jugulum[/i] and [i]The Fifth Elephant[/i]. [i]Thief of Time [/i]was also really bad. Since then, all of the books have been pretty good, even [i]Monstrous Regiment[/i] IMO.[/quote]

I agree more or less. I didn't hate either of those books, because all had some interesting ideas, but I didn't really like them. Rincewind is too unchanging as a character, and it stops working after XX books of him behaving the same way. (However, I liked the allusions to Priscilla The Desert Queen in the book). [i]Carpe Jugulum[/i] was a re-hash of [i]Lords and Ladies[/i], even though I rather like Agnes.

I was very disappointed with Thief of Time.

[lokisnow]

[quote name='Red Sun' post='1548885' date='Oct 8 2008, 21.29']I liked it as well. But then, my favorite Discworld novel is Reaper Man, which most people don't like so much.[/quote]

I just got Reaper Man in the mail today, in HC. It's actually a british HC, from the bookclub, but same size as a regular HC and same cover art without a UPC. Other than Death's Eyes, I think it is probably my favorite discworld cover art of all (got about half of the series in HC).

I didn't care for Thud at all, but it's next on my reread list. I think Pratchett's most recent high points before Nation have been The Truth, Night Watch and A hatful of Sky. Going Postal was good, Making Money very disappointing (basically a mashup of Men at Arms and Going Postal). I kind of liked Thief of Time, but thought Monstrous Regiment was possibly the weakest discworld of all, though it had its moments, the ending went too far into the "In and Out" trap, imo.

Nation is set on Earth, otherwise. circa the 1880s I would guess. It's a very slightly tweaked parallel world, but for all intents and purposes it might as well be on our Earth, there's only a few plot macguffins that make the parallel even necessary.

[Artas]

[quote]ETA: I also like Soul Music, mostly, because it introduced the concept of "particles of inspiration", which I find hilariously fitting to the way how inspirations work.[/quote]

Nah, Sourcery already did that.

[Sheep the Evicted]

See, five Pratchett fans six different preferences. :lol: I wonder why we even bother reviewing him.

But barring that BoTarth shares my preferences so closely she could be my dupe. Looks like i could be lockesnow's ( it looks like i copy pasted your "review".)

Anyhow I'm in the minority that really enjoyed MR.

[MinDonner]

I also rather liked Monstrous Regiment, though the ending was REALLY weak. Couldn't stand [i]Thud[/i], thought it was just a rehash of Every Bloody Other Vimes storyline (will he lose it and become a murderer instead of a copper? Yawn yawn yawn. Much as I like Vimes, this book did not work for me), but [i]Carpe Jugulum[/i] was, I thought, a real return to form after some dropping of quality. Tiffany Aching is just too damn preachy ("Hey kids! Here's how to be responsible!") and Wintersmith was a mess.

But yeah, anyway, it's cool that everyone has such vastly different opinions on which Pratchett books are good. Maybe when I get round to reading Nation we can all argue about that, too...

[Ran]

Just a quick note for anyone interested, Terry Pratchett will be appearing in [url="http://www.secondlife.com/"]Second Life[/url] at [url="http://slurl.com/secondlife/Elysian%20Isle/128/128/2"]Elysian Isle[/url] for a Q&A of some sort, although it looks like they may not be taking any more questions. The event'll be at 12 PM Pacific Time/8 PM BST

[Fatuous]

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1549003' date='Oct 9 2008, 04.19']But yeah, anyway, it's cool that everyone has such vastly different opinions on which Pratchett books are good. Maybe when I get round to reading Nation we can all argue about that, too...[/quote]

Can we agree that Pratchett's best book is Small Gods? Probably not...

Anyway, my own preferences for the more recent books go along the lines:
Last Continent, Last Hero, Night Watch and Going Postal are the bestest stuff. Say what you want about Last Continent, I still think it's Pratchett's funniest book and Last Hero had some good pictures. Night Watch and Going Postal stand on their own but I have to add that Night Watch works because Pratchett cut back on the regular cast rather than expanding them.

Montrous Regiment, Thief of Time, Carpe Jugulum, Fifth Elephant and Thud are some of the worst novels under the "Discworld" name. I have never warmed to Susan Sto Helit, I've come to the conclusion that I like Carrot more than Vimes and Monstrous Regiment just plain sucks.

The Truth was above average but the character De Word never really went anywhere in the novel itself or the series and those "Witch in training" novels were merely cute.

I'll still waiting for the American paperback release of Making Money. That reminds me, it came out last week...

It is interesting that we all agree that the most recent books are all "hit or miss".

[marwyn]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1549735' date='Oct 9 2008, 21.42']Can we agree that Pratchett's best book is Small Gods? Probably not...

Anyway, my own preferences for the more recent books go along the lines:
Last Continent, Last Hero, Night Watch and Going Postal are the bestest stuff. Say what you want about Last Continent, I still think it's Pratchett's funniest book and Last Hero had some good pictures. Night Watch and Going Postal stand on their own but I have to add that Night Watch works because Pratchett cut back on the regular cast rather than expanding them.

Montrous Regiment, Thief of Time, Carpe Jugulum, Fifth Elephant and Thud are some of the worst novels under the "Discworld" name. I have never warmed to Susan Sto Helit, I've come to the conclusion that I like Carrot more than Vimes and Monstrous Regiment just plain sucks.

The Truth was above average but the character De Word never really went anywhere in the novel itself or the series and those "Witch in training" novels were merely cute.

I'll still waiting for the American paperback release of Making Money. That reminds me, it came out last week...

It is interesting that we all agree that the most recent books are all "hit or miss".[/quote]

I think I'd agree on the Small gods one. It's one of his best books - right below Thief of time:P
Why does no one here seem to like Susan? I always thought she was pretty funny. Doesnt she feature in Hogfather as well? That was a hilarious book.

I think if I'd have to pick a worst Discworld book it'd be Carpe Jugulum or the fifth elephant so I'd agree with you there.

I think the controversy about the newer books is that they have a lot more (dare I say it) Plot in general, while it started out purely as a humor series. The latter books seem to have much more underlying themes as well - although there's still lots of awesome jokes as well.

[Red Sun]

[quote name='Artas' post='1548969' date='Oct 9 2008, 08.42']Nah, Sourcery already did that.[/quote]

You got me there. :) I don't even remember that book, but some of the older book, I did not read so often, neither do I own them. So, it must be one of them. However, the idea was still the most interesting part of Soul Music for me.


[quote name='Marwyn' post='1549751' date='Oct 9 2008, 21.49']I think I'd agree on the Small gods one. It's one of his best books - right below Thief of time:P
Why does no one here seem to like Susan? I always thought she was pretty funny. Doesnt she feature in Hogfather as well? That was a hilarious book.[/quote]

I like her in all the book where she appears, except for The Time Thief. I thought her a bit too overused in that book.
Hogfather like all the Discworld books that deal with myths or meta about narrative structures is dear to my heart.

In fact, I like all the female characters that appear in Discworld novels, just like the male ones.

[Padreic]

I will never understand why almost everyone dislikes fith elephant. For me, this is the best discworld novel by far.. the dialogue between vimes and vetinari at the beginning alone is worth reading it.

[alguien]

I've never met a Discworld book I didn't like.

Even Pratchett's worst (which, for me, is The Last Continent) is still a damn sight better than most of the rubbish passing for fantasy that is out there.

[lokisnow]

I initially disliked Fifth Elephant because it was my first Vimes book, because I thought Uberwald was weak and I couldn't figure out the Carrot and Angua angle. Also Nobby and Fred were just sort of uselessly added, as though they were more of an afterthought. it also has a really weak/dumb title. Vimes outside of Ankh Morpork just isn't as Vimesy, really. :P I just reread it, and I think it's pretty middling for the series, though probably the weakest Watch book (or second weakest, after Thud).

Thief of Time I quite like a lot. I do like Susan, though I thought Soul Music was kind of dull. Monstrous Regiment had potential to be really great, but the ending just sort of petered out, the book seemed more half-assed than most discworld books. Maurice is okay, but nothing special, Wee Free Men is very good Hatful of Sky is one of the best discworld books, imo, and Wintersmith is solid and interesting but not remarkable.

The Truth has a lot of Gaspode, so it is automatically awesome.

[A Time for Wolves]

Aw, I liked The Fifth Elephant a lot. It was fun to see Vimes outside of Ankh-Morpork. The only annoying part was Carrot and Angua's little drama on the side. (She completely freaks out and [i]runs away from her job [/i]- not for the first time - without explaining things to [i]anyone [/i]and then she is outraged and [i]surprised [/i]when Carrot comes after her? Someone clearly does not know much about her long-time boyfriend, or about how a professional policewoman should behave)

[quote name='Marwyn' post='1549751' date='Oct 9 2008, 15.49']I think I'd agree on the Small gods one. It's one of his best books - right below Thief of time:P
Why does no one here seem to like Susan? I always thought she was pretty funny. Doesnt she feature in Hogfather as well? That was a hilarious book.[/quote]

Okay, so here's a response I wrote immediately after I read Soul Music for the first time about a year or so ago:

"I haven't read that many Discworld books yet [...] but Susan especially pisses me off. She just seems so boring and two-dimensional and Mary Sueish, and in Soul Music she basically repeats everything her father did in Mort.

It's not just that she seems to be idealized and hard to relate to, but her characterization seemed inconsistent. She keeps insisting that she's a cold, unfeeling person who has no emotions, but the reader sees her getting emotional all the time, whether it's anger or annoyance or concern over the pretty Imp and his life being replaced by music. But then she goes back in time to see her parents' death, and she feels absolutely nothing. That's one thing that I can't forgive her for. She feels all wound up over the cute rocker boy, but she can't even work up a smidgen of grief, shock or anger at her parents' deaths. Even Death seems to feel the impact more.


And Soul Music especially seems to go out of its way (and it's storyline, for that matter) to point out out how important Susan is, without ever giving the reader a reason to believe it. For example, remember that brilliant climactic scene in which Death and Mort battle, and Death laughs and turns over the hourglass? That was one of the most epic scenes in any of the Discworld books I've read so far, especially as you are left wondering what exactly made Death turn the glass over. Then you read Soul Music, and you realize that he did it for SUSAN. Nor Ysabell, not Mort, not for justice or the law or anything like that, but for SUSAN.

Honestly, that was probably the most disappointing thing in the book, one of its lowest points. It's like having someone shout in my ear, really, loudly, "SUSAN IS SPESHUL!!!!!!!"

And there's just so much of Susan that I don't agree with. Sometimes it's just small things. There's this one time when she reflects that her father was made a duke and dukes are meant to be warriors, but her father never did any warring, he just went around doing diplomatic work in other countries and city-states. And then she comments that this makes his work worthless and without pride.

Now, if that had come from Vimes, such a statement would have made sense because you always know where Vimes is coming from. But that just popped into Susan's mind from nowhere. It almost felt as if Pratchett was trying to make Susan more appealing by likening her to Vimes, or maybe he just has something against dukes. But in any case, who is Susan to say something like that? How can she justify saying something like that about her father's work? Where, in her upbringing, did she learn that warring/policing is more noble than diplomatic work? Especially if she goes to preppy Quirm College for Young Ladies?


Sorry for the rant! I just read Soul Music, and Susan annoyed me no end. Just had to get that off my chest :P"