please help

[Eponine]

Tobin, I know and understand that you wanted to be able to save your marriage, and that is a good thing, but he has told you in multiple ways that things are over between you.

It would be easy to fault him for letting things drag out, but from what you've told us, he has been pretty clear about his intentions. He said he wanted a divorce. He made no argument to you moving out. He did not ask you to return, to reconcile, or to get counseling. And now he has changed the locks.

I fear that you will be hurting yourself to try to keep reviving a relationship that is over.

[Odie]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1606080' date='Dec 2 2008, 10.19']I fear that you will be hurting yourself to try to keep reviving a relationship that is over.[/quote]
Yes, this. It's a hard, hard pill to swallow.

Trying to save your marriage is a noble gesture... but it takes two to make it work. It can't be saved by one person is dragging the other through the process, kicking and screaming.

Focus your energy on YOU, and not him. Your greatest task right now, emotionally, is to create/re-create Tobin-The-Woman, rather than Tobin-Half-of-a-Couple. Where your lives were entwined, you need to work on letting go.

Once you realize that you're now totally in charge of the direction your life can go, it's a very liberating feeling. You've gone from being a democracy to a dictatorship, and YOU are the dictator. Thinking of it that way, you'll eventually realize just how much power you have.

:grouphug:

[DanteGabriel]

I must concur with all the others who think the lock-changing is a big indicator. It's time to start looking out for number one, Tobin. Take care of yourself.

[Kelli Fury]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1605998' date='Dec 2 2008, 09.28']I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if I don't see anything within a week or two - I'm going to call him on it.[/quote]

[i][b]What[/b][/i], in all this business, makes you willing to give him the benefit of the doubt??? He tried to convince you not to talk to a lawyer, when he was already in contact with one. He has been messing around with your emotions-on purpose. Now he has changed the locks for no reason other than to lock YOU out. He's using you because you are letting him. You need to stop giving him a pass on these things. You may not think he's a bad person, but he is seriously fucking you over. I know you love him and don't want to believe that is true, but it is. If this is what he does, you don't want him back, he doesn't respect you. Quit throwing yourself at him, don't give him a key, don't talk to him, and for the love of god HIRE THAT LAYWER.

[Angalin]

What Kay said. I don't really know why I'm posting, because she said exactly what I think, except to add my voice to those who say he is acting in bad faith and you need to look out for yourself first, last and always. And hire a lawyer; don't just consult, HIRE ONE. I bet he or his parents have had one for weeks.

[Bellis]

:grouphug: Tobin. Love sucks.

[Lisheo]

Hey Tobin. Newbie here, to offer my thoughts. Generally, while some relationships are worth fighting for, the majority are not. There is usually a reason for breakups, and from what I can see of the lock-changing and the lawyer business, this guy is taking you for a ride, if I may be blunt. Look out for yourself, and make sure you don't get hurt, because from my experience whats worse than losing a relationship is losing a resurrected relationship you had hope in.
And honestly, I agree with everyone here who says hire a lawyer. Without one, he will take you for all you have. I may sound blunt and unpleasant towards this guy, but I do hate seeing people getting hurt. Much better to be careful than get hurt. *hint hint*
Best of luck, lass. If it's any consolation, things will work out eventually. They usually do.

[davos]

Tobin, I hate to say it but as the others have said, its pretty much over. Its time to cut your losses and start looking to your future. He's done nothing that indicates that he has any real intention to try to salvage the marriage and much to show that in his mind he's already buried it. I'm afraid at this point that to continue to try for reconciliation is not only going to rob you of precious time you need to start rebuilding your life but also cloud your judgement in regards to the divorce proceedings. If you keep holding on to the ghost of the marriage and he is through with it mentally, it is likely that you will make concessions that are not good for you to make to try to keep things ameniable between the two of you. It gives him power over you that frankly he does not deserve and does not have the right to have at this point. Certainly pandering to him is not going to change his mind.

Letting go is a process that takes time. Most people can not wake up one morning, realize that their longterm relationship is over and just move on. For your own sake though right now you need to be hard and make yourself deal with that reality. You need to be thinking clearly and rationally about how to proceed and able to make the best decisions you can for your future. I feel for you because I've been there. Its unbelievably hard to let that ghost of the relationship go. I let it linger far to long and suffered the price for it. Right now the most important thing for you is to take care of yourself. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[Guest Raidne]

If you both had keys before, and he wanted you to have a key, why would he change the locks at all?

[Faelar006]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1605998' date='Dec 2 2008, 09.28']When I was over there, I noticed he had changed the locks after he told me he wouldn't.
He said he needed to make more keys before I could have one.
I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if I don't see anything within a week or two - I'm going to call him on it.
Honestly, if it gets to that point, I expect him to play it off: that he was so busy that he didn't have time to get new keys made.
I think it would be pretty conclusive.[/quote]

That reminded me of this:

[quote]He said his parents wanted a hard date of when I'd be out - he said they haven't specifically come out and said they want him to change the locks, but I'm sure they've thought about it.[/quote]

It seems to me this may be more of an action instigated by his parents rather than something he did on his own. Based on prior statements you've made, I feel that many of his actions are based on his parents having the house as leverage to make him dance to their tune. This may be why his actions seem to be so random and conflicted. It may also explain why he did not immediately have a key made for you; he may be waiting to make one "on the sly" that his parents don't know about. Did you ever give him a key to your apartment? It may be he is waiting for you to make the first move.

[quote]I keep trying to convince myself that it's still early - that things won't get better over night.
But I feel like I'm sinking - that maybe everyone is right, and I just need to face the music.[/quote]

Yeah, this is a familiar feeling.

Disclaimer: the advice I am about to give is predicated on the assumption that you sincerely want to save the marriage and goes against pretty much all the other advice given in the thread. If you don't want to, then please ignore it.

I don't know why, but the view of marriage these days seems to be more of a contractual dating relationship instead of what we idealize it to be, which is a lifetime commitment. People seem to be entirely too concerned about their "rights" in the marriage, including their "right" to be happy, to not be taken advantage of, etc. Point being: there are absolutely no guarantees when it comes to relationships. Yes, people lie to their partners, hurt them, fight with them, etc., but to me, that is just people being people.

All too often, we want to build up walls around ourselves, so we can ensure that we won't be hurt. That's fine and good, but they are impossible to maintain in a relationship. Either the walls fall or the relationship does. If you truly want to save your marriage, you have to make yourself vulnerable to him while being entirely cognizant that you could be hurt, that he could take advantage of you, etc. This is how trust is built and one person always has to make the first move. There are one of two outcomes: either he reciprocates your trust, or he does not. Either way, you will have your answer. Yes, it will be painful. Yes, the odds say that you will most likely be disappointed. What you have to decide is if the reward is worth the risk.

Right now, the ship is sinking. You're the captain and you can tell your crew that it is either all hands on board or that it's time to abandon ship. There are no half measures. You could abandon ship and bail out and you'll be okay after a while. Or, you could try to salvage it and risk going down with the ship. The great thing is, however, that even if you do go down with the ship, you'll still be okay after a while.

Good luck.

Faelar

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tobin,

I hate to say this, but if he changed the locks after you asked him not to... That's a really bad sign. Please retain counsel and start looking after your own interests. If at that point he comes back and is willing to commit to working on the marriage you can do so, if you so choose, from a position of strength.

I also agree with others who say he's using your love for him as a bludgeon. It's dirty, it's unfair, and it's not something someone who sincerely loves you would do. Even if he's doing these things at his parents instigation it doesn't matter. He should be man enough to make these decisions on his own without blaming them on mommy and daddy.

I wish you well. Stay strong, you remain in my prayers.

:)

[Eponine]

[quote name='Faelar006' post='1606416' date='Dec 2 2008, 14.50']I don't know why, but the view of marriage these days seems to be more of a contractual dating relationship instead of what we idealize it to be, which is a lifetime commitment. People seem to be entirely too concerned about their "rights" in the marriage, including their "right" to be happy, to not be taken advantage of, etc. Point being: there are absolutely no guarantees when it comes to relationships. Yes, people lie to their partners, hurt them, fight with them, etc., but to me, that is just people being people.[/quote]

I think that people in a relationship have a RIGHT to not be abused.

I am not saying that Tobin's relationship is abusive.

But it sounds an awful lot like you're saying that it's better for a person to take as much shit as can be dished out on them than give up on a marriage.

It sounds to me that Tobin has already made herself vulnerable to her husband, giving him every opportunity possible to make her part of his life again. And he has completely failed to reciprocate her trust. Would you have her wait until he picks her up and physically throws her out the door?

[Lisheo]

As Faelar says, well, no relationship is perfect. Every one of them has bumps and unpleasant periods.

But this isn't a relationship anymore, in my eyes. If it was in the middle of the marriage and there was nothing else wrong, then I would of course say stick to it, keep pushing forward.

You can stay on the sinking ship, but believe me, in the end it will be more painful for you. I know I'm being blunt here, but the more you drag something out, the worse it gets. Look after yourself, seriously. Your husband seems capable of looking after himself, or his parents are (honestly, all I can say is he should man up and stop hiding behind them as an excuse)

My one bit of advice is look after yourself, stay safe, and make sure you have a lawyer. Don't stick to the sinking ship, if you can avoid it. I know it might seem impossible, or just very difficult now, but you CAN move on, and your life will be fine, in time.

[potsherds]

Whoa whoa whoa!!! I stopped reading after the first sentence in this paragraph, rolling my eyes. Thank the gods someone else slogged through it:

[quote name='Faelar006' post='1606416' date='Dec 2 2008, 20.50']I don't know why, but the view of marriage these days seems to be more of a contractual dating relationship instead of what we idealize it to be, which is a lifetime commitment. People seem to be entirely too concerned about their "rights" in the marriage, including their "right" to be happy, to not be taken advantage of, etc. Point being: there are absolutely no guarantees when it comes to relationships. Yes, people lie to their partners, hurt them, fight with them, etc., but to me, that is just people being people.[/quote]
I really, really, [i]really[/i] don't like the implications of this paragraph, which as Eponine points out can lead to thinking that someone ought to keep trying to make an unhappy relationship work out, no matter how 'tough' it is. Bull. No one should try to make a relationship work where one or both parties obviously doesn't respect the other, or where there's emotional and/or physical abuse. I'm honestly very sorry for you, that you have this opinion. You're thinking on this issue sets you up to be very easily victimized in your current and any future relationships. I really hope that doesn't happen to you, abusive relationships are awful. :(

And Tobin should [i]not[/i] take your advice.
Sorry Tobin, but I agree with what other folks have said today. :(

[Tobin]

I didn't outright ask him not to change the locks.
He said that his parents wanted him to, but he would just make them believe that he did it.
That's why it was a bit of a surprise to see a new deadbolt set installed.
I should have expected it though. We had shopped at Walmart together earlier that week and I had seen him looking at hardware. I asked if he was thinking of changing the locks and he was noncommital.

That his parents were pressuring him into it, I could see. Since we haven't gotten a chance to talk, I haven't been able to ask to make sure.
I'm sure they told him that he wouldn't want to risk me storming into the house and "damaging" or "stealing" items.
The few times that Heika has seen me really angry has been over things his parents have said or done.


What went through my head the instant I saw the lock change:

[i]He didn't keep his word.
He doesn't trust me.
He doesn't want me walking in unannounced.
[/i]
All of those were pretty hard to stomach.
I can't even remember what he told me when I asked him about it.


It's not a question of him waiting for me to give him a copy of my key - I gave him one as a guesture of faith (against all logic and recommendations, :( ).
He hasn't repaid that in kind.

I guess it's what I deserve for being foolish.

Mom suggested today that I get the locks changed because other people had lived there before (she doesn't know he has one). Since the lock sticks anyway, it might be a good idea anyway.

Then he won't have a key anymore either.


Mom will be staying with me until Friday morning at the latest - I'll put off trying to see him until then.

[Eponine]

I'm so very sorry Tobin.

I think you should change your locks. And I think that you should cut off contact with him except through your lawyer. These are just my opinions.

I understand some of what you're going through. My ex-H also changed the locks on me during our separation. My stuff was not all moved out yet, he would not let me in to take an inventory of what was mine, and he made me make appointments through his mother to get in to get my stuff, which she made as difficult as possible. I barely even had enough clothes to wear.

[i]He said that his parents wanted him to, but he would just make them believe that he did it.[/i]

This says so much. If he was his own person, a husband to you instead of the tool of his parents, he would have told his parents that they had to respect his wishes about his own house.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tobin,

A suggestion. Stop calling him. He knows you care for him, you've shown that again and again. He needs to prove he cares for you. Let him make the next move. Talk to him if he calls but don't continue to attempt to contact him.

I [i]know[/i] how difficult this is to do, but, I sincerely believe you will be better served if you simply put the ball in his court.

[TerraPrime]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1606517' date='Dec 2 2008, 15.10']I guess it's what I deserve for being foolish.[/quote]

I don't think it's a matter of foolishness. I think it's natural that if you see something worth salvaging from the relationship that you would go for it. After all, it was a relationship that worked at one point. It's not about being foolish at all. For us, since we're not emotionally involved with him, it's a lot easier for us to see things objectively and call bullshit when we notice it. That's all. As the Chinese saying goes, the people in the game are confused, but the spectators know what is going on.

I do think, however, that every step you can take to ready yourself for the reality of the final split would be a good thing. I just don't see any genuine willingness from his end to salvage this, and you can't save a relationship with only half the party involved in the effort.

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. *hugs*

[Faelar006]

[quote name='potsherds' post='1606458' date='Dec 2 2008, 14.14']Whoa whoa whoa!!! I stopped reading after the first sentence in this paragraph, rolling my eyes. Thank the gods someone else slogged through it:


And Tobin should [i]not[/i] take your advice.
Sorry Tobin, but I agree with what other folks have said today. :([/quote]

So...you didn't even read my entire post, yet you feel confident advising Tobin not to take my advice. If you say so...

If you had finished reading my post, you would see where I first advised her to ignore my advice if she was not completely certain she wanted to attempt to salvage the relationship. I [i]then[/i] went on to basically say that, no matter what choice she makes or what happens, she'll be okay in the end.

[quote]I really, really, [i]really[/i] don't like the implications of this paragraph, which as Eponine points out can lead to thinking that someone ought to keep trying to make an unhappy relationship work out, no matter how 'tough' it is. Bull. No one should try to make a relationship work where one or both parties obviously doesn't respect the other, or where there's emotional and/or physical abuse. I'm honestly very sorry for you, that you have this opinion. You're thinking on this issue sets you up to be very easily victimized in your current and any future relationships. I really hope that doesn't happen to you, abusive relationships are awful. :([/quote]

Yes, because I'm obviously talking specifically about abusive relationships and how I think that people have too cavalier a view about getting out of them. :rolleyes:

I really fail to see how letting my guard down to my wife and making myself vulnerable to her is setting myself up to be victimized. Is it possible that my wife will betray my trust at some point in the future and hurt me badly? I absolutely recognize the possibility. Is it possible that I misjudged my wife's character and she will take advantage of that at some point? You betcha. However, I also recognize that I am a grown adult (as is Tobin), that I know my wife better than anyone else (as Tobin knows her husband), and extrapolating from my past experiences with her, I am reasonably certain that the reward far outweighs the risk (Tobin will have to decide that for herself).

In addition, and most importantly, I realize that my wife and I will never have the depth and breadth of love and relationship that I desire if I constantly feel the need to keep my defenses in place so I won't be hurt too badly. Being flawed, my wife has absolutely lied to me, has said mean and hurtful things to and about me, etc. But rather than keeping a register of wrongs to compare against the level of respect I demand for myself, I prefer to compare each individual wrong against the accumulation of positive characteristics and actions that caused me to fall in love with her in the first place. If nothing else, I find that it is less stressful and time consuming than the other, with the added benefit of letting me be more understanding of the flaws of others.

YMMV

Faelar

[Mlle. Zabzie]

*hugs*

His changing the locks does not seems like a very good sign. I'm so sorry it's turning out this way. To echo others, I would talk to that lawyer again, especially as he seems like his actions are speaking differently (or at least more compellingly) than his words. I'm glad your mother is staying with you - it sounds like she is being a huge support through this difficult time. Best of luck - I'm rooting for you.