Yet Another Wheel of Time Thread

[superkick]

"Actually Shaidar Haran has been more or less explained. He's basically a Myrdrall possessed by the Dark One."

eh thats not exactly true, hes not a myrdraal possessed by the dark one, its been better explained as hes the physical representation of the dark one in the physical world, hence hand of the shadow. He isnt the dark one per say, but he isnt just possed by him either. Hes a manifestation of the dark one which is why he never showed up until the seals started weakening, and which is why he also has powers unlike anyone else.

And sammael is not coming back. Most theories regarding who was behind the attack put it at being moridin or another one of the forsaken posing as sammael to throw things off balance.

[Andhaira]

Hmm, since we were talkng blademasters,

How would one of the Baku-Ban-Mana (lol) fare against Galad? I mean the Baku-Ban-mana train every single waking minute for every single day of their lives. Not even Galad would be able to take him on eh?

And how would one of the war-wizards from tairy's world fare against a channler? Blaefire is badass yeah, but does it hold a candle to black lightning from a war-wizard? Heck the very edict of a war-wizard was "Cut! Cut them! Cut them down! Cut! Cut!" lol good ol' tairy.

[Werthead]

[url="http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2008/11/path-of-daggers-by-robert-jordan.html"]EIGHT![/url] Is that the light at the end of the tunnel I see before me?

[quote]The Path of Daggers was originally published in October 1998 and was released two and a half years after the previous volume (which had ended on a cliffhanger), the longest gap between books in the series at that time. As a result, expectations for this book were high. When the book finally arrived, people were taken aback by its slimness (at least compared to other books in the series) and its failure to address that cliffhanger from the prior volume. Reviews of the book were negative and even today some fans continue to cite this as the weakest book in the series (although the majority agree that that honour goes to the tenth book). For a series that had almost been immune to criticism up to this point, this book marked a serious turning point for the worse.

The book opens in the aftermath of events in A Crown of Swords. Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, has been proclaimed King of Illian after killing the Forsaken Sammael. His satisfaction is short-lived, however. The Seanchan have returned in great force and in a blitzkrieg campaign lasting several weeks have swept through the south-west of the continent, conquering the kingdom of Tarabon and capturing the cities of Amador and Ebou Dar (the capitals of Amadicia and Altara, respectively) in rapid succession. Already fearing they might march on Illian next, Rand concocts a plan to bottle them up in Ebou Dar, but is unaware that there are those in his own ranks who are preparing to move against him.

Meanwhile, in Ghealdan Perrin makes contact with Queen Alliandre as part of his mission to track down and neutralise the increasingly insane and dangerous 'Prophet of the Dragon', Masema. At the same time, the leaders of the Borderlands have led a vast host southwards for an unknown reason. Nynaeve, Elayne and their loose and fractious alliance of Sea Folk Windfinders, Aes Sedai and Kin have recovered the Bowl of Winds from Ebou Dar and now have to use it to restore normal weather to the world, unaware of the consequences of their actions. And in the White Tower Elaida walks a fine line as she is blackmailed by Alviarin into doing things that will shatter the sisterhood, whilst her secret agents continue their hunt for the Black Ajah.

A plot summary of Path of Daggers sounds exciting, and the news that the book features a significant military showdown between Rand and the Seanchan should be impressive. However, The Path of Daggers is beset by numerous problems that prevent it from being fully enjoyable. First off, the level of filler in this book is much worse than any previous volume. There are several chapters where characters are riding along arguing with one another, or discussing the plot, or making it clear how much they hate one another. These points are slammed home again and again by Robert Jordan for no clear purpose. The battles between Rand and the Seanchan are intriguing and the messy ending to the engagement is an important moment in the series, but it comes far too late in the book. Perrin's story proceeds at an absolute crawl and he barely has any screen-time in the book, whilst Mat has none. Jordan's point that Mat is recovering from his wounds and thus isn't doing anything interesting in the story at this moment is well-taken, but at the same time the ambiguity of Mat's fate in the prior volume was part of what made the book's ending powerful and interesting. It being completely ignored for four and a half years until Book 9 was annoying. However, re-reading the series now this isn't so much of a problem.

Up until The Path of Daggers, the structural and writing problems with the series could to some extent be ignored because the story was still compelling and the reader was encouraged to read on no matter what. However, at this point and through the next two books these problems start to actually interfere with the readability of the books. The pace slows to a crawl and events that would have been covered in a few chapters in previous books now span entire novels. For some reason Jordan ignored the basic writing maxim that as you build up to a series finale you have to increase the pace and intensity of events, and as a result the series becomes somewhat more difficult to read in-depth from this point on.

The Path of Daggers (**½) doesn't suffer from quite so many problems as it did on first release, but it still represents a significant failure in both writing and editing that makes it a shadow of the book it could have been. The book is available in the UK from Orbit and in the USA from Tor.[/quote]

[kcf]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1583863' date='Nov 10 2008, 11.37']Yeah, I've never entirely understood the "OMG! YOUR RPG IS UNBALANCED!" fanatics. RPGs are meant to reflect life, and life is unbalanced. In fact, it is the RPGs that go to extremes to make all classes and professions equal that feel bland and undistinctive (hello 4E!). Yeah, a channeller is more powerful than an Illianer soldier, just as in real life a mercenary armed with a rocket launcher is going to make mincemeat out of an unarmed banker.

Anyway, confirmation that [url="http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=374"]Red Eagle are total wankers[/url]:





No, you idiots, he wasn't asking if you were going to 'forgive' Robert Jordan for what he said, he wanted to know how you were going to win back the fans' trust and faith after apparently screwing over the author and insulting him. Insulting him again after he's passed away is not the best way of doing this.[/quote]


[url="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/2008/11/red-eagle-dances-on-robert-jordans.html"]I was inspird to rant at length on the blog[/url]

[Andhaira]

Good review. I agree that book 8 was where the rot that began in book 7 started to interfere with readibility. Book 9 was IMO the worst (last WOT book I read) mostly in part to faile and perrin.

Its funny, a freaking page turner of a series actually becoming UNREADABLE! One could never have believed it. I really wonder what caused Jordan to go so off track:

-Illness, affecting his creativityand basic ability. Yes RJ wasn't diagnosedat the time, but perhaps the beginnings of thedadly disease left him exhausted and unable to fully focus?

-Money? As GRRM jokingly implied in ASoS (jordayne of the tor) perhaps RJ prolonged the series into a cash grab? I pesonally never wanted to believe this, and part of me still doesn't. I mean, Jordan could always write a new Wot series after thisone was done; it would still sell like hotcakes.

-Something else? Maybe he wanted the series to goto 13 volumes, since its a mystical number in his tales. Or maybe he was trying to outdo terry goodkind, whose own series was rapdily increasnig in volumes 9and decreasing in quantity)

[superkick]

I think i msut be one of the few people that was never bothered or minded by the fact that the pace of events slowed down toa near crawl. I still thouroughly enjoyed everyone and never minded that thigns werent cleared up fast enough. Im sure after the final is released all will be well.

[cseresz]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1585069' date='Nov 11 2008, 19.00']However, re-reading the series now this isn't so much of a problem.

The Path of Daggers (**½) doesn't suffer from quite so many problems as it did on first release[/quote]

Do you write these reviews to the new audience or to old sweats?

[L'Sana]

A Wheel of Time movie is an interesting idea. It could rock, the way that LoTR did, or it could be so terrible that we'd be pining for the cinematic artistry that was Eragon. My money would be on the latter, but I never thought that LoTR could be done well, so we'll see,

I think that the first 3 books could make decent movies (the later ones are a whole different subject), with Eye of the World needing the most work. There's enough story there, but that story would need to be focused around the goal of saving the Eye. The whole "We've got to get to Tar Valon, we've got to get to Tar Valon, we've got to get to Tar Valo...oh, screw Tar Valon, I think we should go to this wacky place that we're never really going to explain instead" probably wouldn't work as a movie.

It would probably be better if they waited until about ten or fifteen years after the last book was published, but of course, if it happens, they won't wait that long. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that they haven't tried to do this already. After LoTR, I expected a whole rash of fantasy movies the way that Star Wars sparked a whole rash of sci-fi. Wheel of Time would seem like a logical piece for someone looking for the next LoTR.

[williamjm]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1584420' date='Nov 11 2008, 03.37']I've said this before but I'll say it again here: The WoT series could work as a 70-80 {at least} episode animated series but it wouldn't work in any other format. Trollocs, fades, gholams, Seanchan creatures, channeler magic, and Dragonmount itself would pose a boatload of problems on film.

Production design on creating distinct Capitals alone would be a challenge for any movie studio.

And then there's the blood, guts and nudity. You got to have the blood, guts and nudity. It's what seperates the Wheel of Time from the Lord of the Rings. And I suppose that the WoT series is unadaptable, not because of the story but because of the content. If you remove or dilute the content, you lose the flavor.[/quote]

I have to say when I think of the Wheel of Time the things that spring to mind are not 'blood, guts and nudity'. I read ASOIAF before WOT and in comparison there's not much sex or violence. I think you could do a WOT adaptation without having much gore or nudity (is there even much nudity in the books?).

In theory I think you could make a WOT TV series along similar lines to the proposed HBO ASOIAF series. I think there would have to be quite a lot of changes made to make it affordable (perhaps reducing the number of cities they need to show or cutting down on some of the more special-effects heavy scenes). A lot of subplots would also have to be lost, which perhaps is no bad thing, also you couldn't have a one-book-per-season arrangement because nobody is going to fund a 12-season series and season 10 would be really dull. If it was on HBO violence and nudity would not be a problem (in fact it's probably compulsory). I don't think an adaptation is likely to be made (at least not a good adaptation) and there would be significant challenges and it certainly wouldn't be a 100% faithful adaptation but I don't think it's impossible.

I can't see it working as a series of movies unless they completely abandon the plot of the books, there's just too much plot there even after you remove the unnecessary subplots.

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1584420' date='Nov 10 2008, 22.37']And then there's the blood, guts [b]and nudity.[/b] You got to have the blood, guts and nudity. It's what seperates the Wheel of Time from the Lord of the Rings. And I suppose that the WoT series is unadaptable, not because of the story but because of the content. If you remove or dilute the content, you lose the flavor.[/quote]

:huh: Are we talking about two different Wheel of Time-s?


Tho, I see Williamjm has preempted me.

[Ran]

Aiel have a disturbing habit of being naked quite a bit. That said, yeah, I think the nudity is just not at all a requirement for a show. The blood and guts? Not that hard to do with modern makeup and practical effects. The critters are toughest, and CGI can handle those all right.

Like William says, "blood, guts, and nudity" comes sooner to mind for ASoIaF than it ever did for WoT. The gruesome violence of WoT is actually quite limited. The worst cases are, what, a slaughter here and there, the meat grinder at Dumai's Well? The gruesome bits aren't a core part of the series, nor are they a part of its primary tone. It can be excised without compromising the series, I'm pretty sure.

[Tears of Lys]

Ah, I vaguely recall that. It all struck me as extremely asexual, hence the confusion.

[Werthead]

[quote name='cseresz' post='1585228' date='Nov 11 2008, 19.39']Do you write these reviews to the new audience or to old sweats?[/quote]

Well, whenever you write a review it is for a new audience as the people who've already read it have already read it, so it's a bit superfluous for them. However, I was trying to get across that PoD is somewhat more successful to read now than when it came out, as there wasn't a long wait for it beforehand and you can just go straight into the next volume. That's why the score isn't any lower.

[Slurktan]

[quote name='Ran' post='1585377' date='Nov 11 2008, 16.30']Like William says, "blood, guts, and nudity" comes sooner to mind for ASoIaF than it ever did for WoT. The gruesome violence of WoT is actually quite limited. The worst cases are, what, a slaughter here and there, the meat grinder at Dumai's Well? The gruesome bits aren't a core part of the series, nor are they a part of its primary tone. It can be excised without compromising the series, I'm pretty sure.[/quote]

The nudity of ASoIaF could be cut out as easily as the nudity in WoT. There is far more graphic violence in WoT, granted a good chunk of it isn't on humans but it is still graphic violence. Cutting out what the Ashaman do is in fact changing the tone. That is part of the point of the Ashaman. Same with the Damane when fighting, the point of them is that they cause horrific violence to a great many, very easily.

As well on the nudity, there is the Accepted test. I would argue very strongly that taking out the nudity in that would change the very tone of the scene.

[Ran]

[quote]The nudity of ASoIaF could be cut out as easily as the nudity in WoT.[/quote]

As easily? Yes. Without affecting the tone? No. WoT's nudity is mostly fan-service, and WoT's sex is pretty much off-camera. It's PG-13 stuff at best.

[quote]There is far more graphic violence in WoT...[/quote]

I should hope that after 11 books there'd be a lot more violence.

More graphic, though? Other than the meat grinder, I really do not think so. Kraznys mo Nakloz's eyes melting is a more gross-out image than anything that I can recall from WoT. The nastiest stuff in WoT is not the allegedly graphic violence, but the implied violence such as the various rapes at Shaidar Haran's hands.

I wasn't calling out for getting rid of all the gruesome stuff, in any case, as you might guess from my noting practical effects. That said, a handful of "gruesome" things and a bit of sophomoric naughtiness do not make "blood, guts, and nudity" high up there when I think about WoT.

[quote]I would argue very strongly that taking out the nudity in that would change the very tone of the scene.[/quote]

I wouldn't buy that argument for a wooden nickel, to say the least, but who cares really? A glimpse of them taking off their clothes, a glimpse of butt or a bare back, and you're done with making note that they're naked. This is not difficult for television to do. It does not require a hard R rating. [i]Smallville[/i] can do as much. It still doesn't lead WoT to being defined in relation to "blood, guts, and nudity".

I really don't see _how_ it sets the tone for anything, though. Women in Randland have absolutely no problem whatsoever getting down to their birthday suits around one another. Egwene's far more concerned about the Aes Sedai not finding her dreaming ter'angreal than she is about the fact that she's naked, for example.

Far more impactful to the tone for television airing would be seriously cutting back on the light BDSM, such as the various spankings, canings, and floggings. Jordan had his kinks, and maybe that one got a wee bit out of hand. ;)

[kuenjato]

Wert, good review, though I'd rate PoD around one and a half - two stars simply for those chapters where characters ride around thinking/talking about the plot and how much they hate each other.

That said, PoD could have been one of the best in the series if RJ had tossed the junk and combined books 8 and 9 into one volume.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ran' post='1585443' date='Nov 11 2008, 17.21']WoT's nudity is mostly fan-service[/quote]

What in the fuck??? How is the nudity in WOT in ANY WAY Fan Service?

Regardless, WOT has a few moments of graphic violence that are usualy quite perpuseful and a big part of the plot.

Dumai's Well is supposed to be a huge bloody horrible mess. That's kind of the point.

[Ran]

The nudity in WoT is the sort to make teenage boys giggle. Now to be fair to Jordan, for the most part the nudity is entirely non-sexual in the way that he presents it. That said, the fact that people keep getting naked in a non-sexual way is, to say the least, a little bit ... fan-servicey. ;)

I've already mentioned Dumai's Well as the one example of graphic violence that stands out. I don't see why it's being flung at me as if I forgot about it. ;) But how many others? Damned few. The violence in the series is not typically gory by any stretch of the imagination. It's not even particularly gritty, for the most part.

ETA: And hitting on the teenage thing again, just how much are people's perceptions about just how much "blood, guts, and nudity" exists as an integral element in WoT based on their first contact with the series in the teenage years? If "blood, guts, and nudity" is a pretty good triad of major elements in WoT, just what triad do you use for ASoIaF or the Malazan Book of the Fallen? "Megablood, megaguts, and meganudity"? (Well, not so much for Malazan. There's not a lot of nudity in there, is there?)

[Shryke]

I don't think blood and guts and nudity are a big part of it.

There's fairly PG-13ish violence except for Dumai's Well, which really works well BECAUSE of that. The sudden shock is what makes it work.

The nudity is just ... there. I do't see ANYTHING fan-servicy about it. It's never done for titilation, it's just a part of the story. Most of the characters seem to see it as normal, which is kind of the opposite of what your suggesting.

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Ran' post='1585377' date='Nov 11 2008, 16.30']Aiel have a disturbing habit of being naked quite a bit. That said, yeah, I think the nudity is just not at all a requirement for a show. The blood and guts? Not that hard to do with modern makeup and practical effects. The critters are toughest, and CGI can handle those all right.

Like William says, "blood, guts, and nudity" comes sooner to mind for ASoIaF than it ever did for WoT. The gruesome violence of WoT is actually quite limited. The worst cases are, what, a slaughter here and there, the meat grinder at Dumai's Well? The gruesome bits aren't a core part of the series, nor are they a part of its primary tone. It can be excised without compromising the series, I'm pretty sure.[/quote]

Song of Ice and Fire: Sex and violence
Wheel of Time: Blood, guts and nudity.

I stand by this. What, you don't think trollocs writing in human blood and entrails, painting a room with blood or using severed limbs as foodstuff counts either? And I would say the nudity is used not only to seperate different societies but also the differences between men and women's hierarchy. Is it fan service or the daydreams of a perverted man? Perhaps but I see it used culturally throughout the series, the "We're not in Kansas anymore" effect. I never said it was sexual which oddly enough makes it more important to the series and harder to cut...



"ETA: And hitting on the teenage thing again, just how much are people's perceptions about just how much "blood, guts, and nudity" exists as an integral element in WoT based on their first contact with the series in the teenage years? If "blood, guts, and nudity" is a pretty good triad of major elements in WoT, just what triad do you use for ASoIaF or the Malazan Book of the Fallen? "Megablood, megaguts, and meganudity"? (Well, not so much for Malazan. There's not a lot of nudity in there, is there?)"

Just what is your problem here? I understand like you Song more but it's not [b]mega[/b] anthing. Hell, it's not even close to complete...

Wait, sorry, I'm wrong. It's megaincomplete.