Yet Another Wheel of Time Thread

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1585069' date='Nov 11 2008, 13.00']First off, the level of filler in this book is much worse than any previous volume. There are several chapters where characters are riding along arguing with one another, or discussing the plot, or making it clear how much they hate one another. These points are slammed home again and again by Robert Jordan for no clear purpose. The battles between Rand and the Seanchan are intriguing and the messy ending to the engagement is an important moment in the series, but it comes far too late in the book. Perrin's story proceeds at an absolute crawl and he barely has any screen-time in the book, whilst Mat has none. Jordan's point that Mat is recovering from his wounds and thus isn't doing anything interesting in the story at this moment is well-taken, but at the same time the ambiguity of Mat's fate in the prior volume was part of what made the book's ending powerful and interesting. It being completely ignored for four and a half years until Book 9 was annoying. However, re-reading the series now this isn't so much of a problem.[/quote]

Whoa, to be fair, some very similar things could be said about ASoIaF. For instance, it's now 8 years since we left Bran with Coldhands. That's longer than many people's marriages. A president will have come and gone (and messed up the country in the meantime) by the time we will learn more about that (if at all).

[fionwe1987]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1585069' date='Nov 11 2008, 13.00'][url="http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2008/11/path-of-daggers-by-robert-jordan.html"]EIGHT![/url] Is that the light at the end of the tunnel I see before me?[/quote]
Hmmm... nice review, but you totally missed Egwene. She had shit-loads of screen time, and an extremely important event happened in the Rebel camp that has ramifications that have still not played out. Apart from Rand, this book was clearly Egwene's. Seeing Egwene do the very things she condemned Rand for a few books earlier, and see her mature as person and a leader were the reasons why PoD worked so well for me.

[Galactus]

[quote]ASoIaF or the Malazan Book of the Fallen? "Megablood, megaguts, and meganudity"? (Well, not so much for Malazan. There's not a lot of nudity in there, is there?)[/quote]

You know, Malazan always struck me as more immature than WoT in that regard. It's just so over-the-top.

[Ran]

Shryke,

Fan-service isn't about the characters finding it normal or not. It's about the readers. If you think that Jordan had all those spanking scenes in there because it turned him on a little and he figured somewhere it might turn his fans on too (and I do), it's hard not to suppose that all these casually naked characters turned him on a little, and so the fans as well. Just because it's not sexualized in the text doesn't mean it's not there to titillate the readers. Indeed, if you look at the origins of fan-service, a random crotch shot in a manga isn't sexualized in the story -- it's just a shot, and none of the characters think anything of it ... but the readers, OTOH, take what they want out of it.

In any case, the repeated nudity can pretty safely be dropped, I think most of us would agree. It doesn't change the tone of anything if it's almost completely gone.

Fatuous,

It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a series. It's just that, as Shryke says, blood and guts and nudity are not a big part of the series. I find it very strange to find someone claiming otherwise, but c'est la vie. Mileage varies.

Galactus,

I'm not sure I'd call it immature, as such, but it's certainly over-indulgent.

[Joanna vander Poele]

[quote name='Cobblestones' post='1585744' date='Nov 11 2008, 19.36']Whoa, to be fair, some very similar things could be said about ASoIaF. For instance, it's now 8 years since we left Bran with Coldhands. That's longer than many people's marriages. A president will have come and gone (and messed up the country in the meantime) by the time we will learn more about that (if at all).[/quote]
Yes, but it doesn't mean we have to know [i]everything[/i] that happened during those eight years. Like Bran's bathing habits :leaving:

[Slurktan]

[quote]I've already mentioned Dumai's Well as the one example of graphic violence that stands out. I don't see why it's being flung at me as if I forgot about it. wink.gif But how many others? Damned few. The violence in the series is not typically gory by any stretch of the imagination. It's not even particularly gritty, for the most part.[/quote]

You want more examples of graphic violence? How about piles of dismembered corpses with all of their heads left on top as a taunt? How about a group of pacifists butchered? How about skinned bodies left as more taunting? How about a being nailed to an inn door? (It doesn't matter that it's a Myrdraal, it is nailed to a door) How about the main character calmly decapitating a woman in cold blood? How about a pacifist being brained by a Myrdraal as one of the mains looks right on? There are tons of examples of graphic violence in WoT. The fact that you don't seem to think of them as graphic....

[quote post='1585479' date='Nov 11 2008, 17.48']The nudity in WoT is the sort to make teenage boys giggle. Now to be fair to Jordan, for the most part the nudity is entirely non-sexual in the way that he presents it. That said, the fact that people keep getting naked in a non-sexual way is, to say the least, a little bit ... fan-servicey. ;)[/quote]

Other than you, who else has looked on it this way in this thread? It honestly looks like you are putting your own spin on things. I mean you don't even seem to get the purpose of the nudity in the Accepted test despite it being right in the text. Given your point about teenage sensabilities... shouldn't you look to your own ideas first? You gloss over horrific violence and go gaga over some spanking and nudity.

[Poobah]

I agree with Ran here. RJ throws in nudity and spankings every time he gets a paper thin excuse to do so.

I like WoT, but Ran's in the right here.

[Ran]

Slurktan,

There's violence. It's not graphic violence, for the most part. It's not gory, for the most part. This is graphic violence by television standards:

[quote]"Shut UP!" the Mountain howled at the stableboy's scream, and this time he swung the blade sideways, sending the top half of the lad's head across the yard in a spray of blood and brains....
The Mountain whirled. Helm, shield, sword, surcoat; he was spattered with gore from head to heels.[/quote]

This:

[quote]How about the main character calmly decapitating a woman in cold blood?[/quote]

is nothing we haven't seen on Highlander the TV series 15 years ago.

I really don't [i]understand[/i] the need for revisionist takes on WoT. The tone and the manner in which violence is depicted is, for the most part, within the bounds of what you can show on network television. ASoIaF, not quite so much, what with the entrails, the melting eyes, the pulped heads, and so on. Not all the violence is like that, of course, but in general George's depiction of the aftermaths of violence is (literally) more visceral.

[quote]mean you don't even seem to get the purpose of the nudity in the Accepted test despite it being right in the text.[/quote]

I "get" the purpose in the story. It is unimportant to the tone of Egwene's test. It does nothing to set the tone of the series. I think you would make a better case for the breast-baring scene when the Sitters have their meeting to elect the new Amyrlin or whatever it was, where the explictly ceremonial aspect and its relation to what happened at the Breaking is much plainer and much more important.

But picking out the Accepted test, I don't get it. Nothing's lost if she doesn't get completely naked. Egwene blinks when she's told to get ready, and then, "Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to get undressed." It's an after thought for the character, and I'd imagine it's an after thought for anyone thinking of producing a movie where this happens.

[Galactus]

[quote]The tone and the manner in which violence is depicted is, for the most part, within the bounds of what you can show on network television.[/quote]

I think the keyword is "For the most part". We also have stuff like the Gholam ripping throats (or is it arms?) out, Dumai's Wells, and some other rather horrific descriptions of what happens when you use the One Power as a weapon.

Agreed, *by and large* it's not that bad, but it has enough gory scenes that I'd doubt it would be allowed to air on network TV if adapted wholesale.

[Andhaira]

Its common knowledge than RJ had spanking fetishes, or something like that. He kepot itin control during the early books, but when the series became so popular and RJ realized he could get away with just about anything, he started putting in more spankings and things like that. Lengthy descriptions also started appearing, as if the author was trying to increase page count. The entire series started going downhil at around the same time.

All respect due to Mr. Rigney, and may he rest in peace, but facts are facts.

As for violence and gore, WOT is certinaly not gorey by any stretch. It is also not gritty at all (save for the borderlands perhaps.) And there is absolutely no point in comapring it to ASOIAF. I mean, just check out the descriptions of what Biter did to his victims in Affc.

Heck, arya is a 9 year old girl and look how rogre speaks to her in ACoK. ("shove the stick up your ass" or whateva)

However a story does not need gore and strewn brains to be good at all. For the first 6 books, the WOT is IMO the second best fantasy around. (the first being ASOIAF ofcourse)

[Ran]

Galactus,

I agree that if they tried it unexpurgated, it could not be on network TV, or that it would be an R film.

But the main thrust of my argument is that removing these elements would not greatly change the overall tone of the work. EotW can easily be a PG-13 film, or a network TV series, without making any great change to the narrative.

[MaesterLuwin]

[quote]I really wonder what caused Jordan to go so off track:[/quote]

I think it was when his wife started being the primary editor for the books, which I believe happened around Book 6 or 7. There were problems that were not unnoticed with the early books, but they were kept in check with good editing. Once Harriet began editing, the amount of superfluous detail went through the roof as plot slowed to a halt.

It seems like it all comes down to everyone at TOR being too much of a wuss to tell him "No," because he was selling so many books by that point.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ran' post='1586043' date='Nov 12 2008, 04.24']Shryke,

Fan-service isn't about the characters finding it normal or not. It's about the readers. If you think that Jordan had all those spanking scenes in there because it turned him on a little and he figured somewhere it might turn his fans on too (and I do), it's hard not to suppose that all these casually naked characters turned him on a little, and so the fans as well. Just because it's not sexualized in the text doesn't mean it's not there to titillate the readers. Indeed, if you look at the origins of fan-service, a random crotch shot in a manga isn't sexualized in the story -- it's just a shot, and none of the characters think anything of it ... but the readers, OTOH, take what they want out of it.[/quote]

That's just ridiculous. I mean seriously, your REALLY REALLY stretching here.

What gives you any ompression the nudity is only there to tittilate the reader? You know, other then your pre-conceived notions of anting to complain about sht in the series?

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='Ran' post='1586582' date='Nov 12 2008, 12.54']Galactus,

I agree that if they tried it unexpurgated, it could not be on network TV, or that it would be an R film.

But the main thrust of my argument is that removing these elements would not greatly change the overall tone of the work. EotW can easily be a PG-13 film, or a network TV series, without making any great change to the narrative.[/quote]

Is that even an argument? What you're saying is: if you remove the R-rated parts, it could be a PG-13 flick. Duh

Btw. could you do the same with ASoIaF? Say the stableboy-Mountain scene mentioned earlier. He could just as well hit the boy with the broad side of his sword and knock him unconscious. Will it have the precise same effect? Of course not. But is the exact sequence necessary for the narrative. No, not really. What about the sex scenes? Dany and her servant? Cersei and the swamp? Sam and the pink mast? Neither is strictly necessary. The one which comes to mind, though is the incest scene Jaime+Cersei. Hard to cut that out. Still, could you make ASoIaF PG-13? Probably. Would it lose something in the process? Probably. On the other hand, ASoIaF is neither splatter nor porn. It's medieval fantasy; it has story arcs and character development. You can show that to a good degree and keep it PG13 if needed. It won't be precisely the same, but neither would WoT.

I think what shouldn't be confused here are two things. The language of ASoIaF is oftentimes cruder, more graphic, the descriptions more evocative. However, that doesn't necessarily translate into the content being more graphic violence or sex. You have to distinguish here between the language and the content.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Cobblestones' post='1586747' date='Nov 12 2008, 20.22']Is that even an argument? What you're saying is: if you remove the R-rated parts, it could be a PG-13 flick. Duh[/quote]No, what he is saying is: You can remove the R-rated parts from WoT without denaturating WoT.

[Ran]

Shryke,

Look up fan-service. And given that I just went and said I saw the argument for the breast-baring scene as actually more important and fundamental to the series than the nudity of the accepted test, I think a careful consideration of what I wrote would inform you that it's not [i]all[/i] titillating fan service.

Just mostly. As I said, I think it turned RJ on a little, perhaps as much because it wasn't sexualized as anything else. He didn't sexualize his spankings, either, and yet they showed up damned often. Every man has a right to his kinks.

I suggest, BTW, that you consider discussing things more respectfully, or dropping out of the discussion. Lots of CAPITALIZED WORDS aren't impressing me.

Cobblestones,

[quote]Is that even an argument? What you're saying is: if you remove the R-rated parts, it could be a PG-13 flick. Duh[/quote]

No, the argument is that WoT is fundamentally at most a PG-13 series, and that the very few "R" bits aren't fundamental to it, and so can be cut. The show can be faithfully adapted and appear on network television.

ASoIaF is an R series, however. Reducing it to PG-13 would indeed negatively impact the tone. Putting it on a network would compromise it too much for the end product to be faithful.

[Rhom]

Writing about getting naked is supposed to be a turn on?

Maybe I need to write more... I think I must have been doing it wrong up till now.

[Ran]

Imagining a bunch of hot chicks standing around naked while another hot naked chick is getting switched is likely a turn on for some people. The actual process of writing it, I don't know. I haven't yet had cause to write about any such thing.

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Ran' post='1586446' date='Nov 12 2008, 11.34']But picking out the Accepted test, I don't get it. Nothing's lost if she doesn't get completely naked. Egwene blinks when she's told to get ready, and then, "Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to get undressed." It's an after thought for the character, and I'd imagine it's an after thought for anyone thinking of producing a movie where this happens.[/quote]

Do I have to draw you a picture as to what the metaphor is: the ter'angreal shaped as it is, being nude, the pouring of water? Anything yet? Come on, this is one of the easier ones.

As to the gore and grue, I came to reading the Wheel of Time from Stephen King and Clive Barker so maybe I'm a bit more in tuned to it. In fact, I would so far to say that Jordan applied the same techniques as King did in his horror novels and short stories: If you can't horrify, than shock but if you can't shock then go for the gross out.

As Jordan never intended the series to be horror, he rarely used the first one {Winternight from the first book was pretty close though. The "flicker, flicker" chapter from the Great Hunt as well} but he had some scenes that would fluctuate between shock and gross out. If this series was honestly adapted as a movie, I don't know what the ratings board would make of it. In many ways, the series reminds me of Raimi's Evil Dead movies and the first two had to go unrated in the 80s.

I do notice something odd here: Some people remember the long talky exposition scenes while I focus on the "other" stuff.

"No, the argument is that WoT is fundamentally at most a PG-13 series, and that the very few "R" bits aren't fundamental to it, and so can be cut. The show can be faithfully adapted and appear on network television.

ASoIaF is an R series, however. Reducing it to PG-13 would indeed negatively impact the tone. Putting it on a network would compromise it too much for the end product to be faithful."

"Fundamentally" you are wrong, sir. The violence of Song is more tilted towards human brutality which makes it easier to cut the blood, the spilling, the hacking and the spewing while still retaining the intent while in Wheel of Time, it's pretty much the entire point of Trollocs. And the Asha'man. And the Damane. And the Gholam and so on and so on.

And sex, well, that can just be implied without being shown.

[Shryke]

[quote]Just mostly. As I said, I think it turned RJ on a little, perhaps as much because it wasn't sexualized as anything else. He didn't sexualize his spankings, either, and yet they showed up damned often. Every man has a right to his kinks.[/quote]

But WHY do you think that? You haven't given a reason for it other then "Well, there were spankings".