ASOIAF vs WOT

[Ouroboros]

Even with the dragons, they'd still be able to get popped by even the lower tier Ashaman and Aes Sedai, never mind the Forsaken and higher level channelers.

[Slurktan]

I'd guess Gholam are controlled rather simply once you know what works. What works? Silver. Mat's Medallion hurts it because it is silver, not because it is anti-power. Gholam are essentially Dracula style vampires in WoT.

[HammerOfGod]

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1583118' date='Nov 9 2008, 13.41']Well, I wouldn't say that, since we don't know their composition, and they are artificially created creatures.

Sure, it takes "Super-science" and the One Power to make them, but this doesn't mean they're built to be immune to cold, or that they're strong enough to smash through a block of ice when frozen inside.

Sure, Superman and the Flash can do it, but I don't think the Gholam are that powerful.[/quote]

The one problem for a Gholam is speed and mobility...and WoT only has one Gholam...and I doubt that a Horse would let a Gholam on its back...I have always wondered if you deprived a Gholam of its food source would it die...or freeze up...it has to have warm blood...

[Galactus]

[quote]If you are including every thing from WOT, then lets assume the Freehold of Valyria with ALL of its dragons and dragon-highlords also joins the fray.[/quote]

Dude, in that case the WoT world gets everything from the Age of Legends as well.

This is what people who like to have fictional wars between fictional characters tends to refer to as a "curbstomp". Not qutie as bad as if it was say... Silver Surfer, but still pretty lopsided.

[Ouroboros]

[quote name='HammerOfGod' post='1583248' date='Nov 9 2008, 17.47']The one problem for a Gholam is speed and mobility...and WoT only has one Gholam...and I doubt that a Horse would let a Gholam on its back...I have always wondered if you deprived a Gholam of its food source would it die...or freeze up...it has to have warm blood...[/quote]
Actually there are a couple of Gholam in existence, its just that only one has been found...

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1583262' date='Nov 9 2008, 22.13']Actually there are a couple of Gholam in existence, its just that only one has been found...[/quote]

Six, IIRC. Three male and three female.

[Mister Manticore]

Six where made.

All or none of the others could have survived.

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1583262' date='Nov 9 2008, 17.13']Actually there are a couple of Gholam in existence, its just that only one has been found...[/quote]

I would phrase it differently: We have knowledge of one Gholam and then we have the vague "pre-Gholam" scene from Lord of Chaos. I'd say the series has two.

[AverageGuy]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1583249' date='Nov 9 2008, 16.47']Not qutie as bad as if it was say... Silver Surfer, but still pretty lopsided.[/quote]
If [url="http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7823/wow13lt8.jpg"]that's[/url] your criteria, ASOIAF might have a chance.

[No. Now it ends.]

How does SOIAF have better generals? Mat could easily defeat Eddard, Tywin, Tarly and whoever else you want to throw out. Not because of his explosives or magic or anything. You could just put him in charge of a typical Westerosi force and he would make them all look stupid.

[Ouroboros]

The Westerosi show very little tactical outside of 'charge' and 'counter-charge' when you think about it. They have piss poor management of peasant troops, barely utilize basic bowmen to their full potential, and only use the most basic in siege tactics.

They don't have sappers, they don't dig trenches or build much in the way of fortification pre-battle, and rely far too heavily on the charge to gain a victory. Cavalry, in reality, are some of the poorest units to use in a battle. The pikeman killed mass heavy cavalry charges, and Randland is pretty much brimming with pikes.

Gareth Byrne, Mat, Agelmar, Pedron Niall, all of the Great Generals and many of the Seanchan, they could all eat Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark for breakfast on the battlefield.

[Joanna vander Poele]

Please. Battles are only one-half of winning. And I think we're forgetting a certain man with little fingers ;)

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Joanna Nox' post='1583362' date='Nov 9 2008, 19.08']Please. Battles are only one-half of winning. And I think we're forgetting a certain man with little fingers ;)[/quote]

Cadsuane would gut him.

[No. Now it ends.]

[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1583306' date='Nov 9 2008, 18.23']The Westerosi show very little tactical outside of 'charge' and 'counter-charge' when you think about it. They have piss poor management of peasant troops, barely utilize basic bowmen to their full potential, and only use the most basic in siege tactics.

They don't have sappers, [b]they don't dig trenches or build much in the way of fortification pre-battle[/b], and rely far too heavily on the charge to gain a victory. Cavalry, in reality, are some of the poorest units to use in a battle. The pikeman killed mass heavy cavalry charges, and Randland is pretty much brimming with pikes.

Gareth Byrne, Mat, Agelmar, Pedron Niall, all of the Great Generals and many of the Seanchan, they could all eat Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark for breakfast on the battlefield.[/quote]

Probably not the best idea to argue with the people that agree with me...but don't we see evidence of trenches and temporary fortifications being built when Jaime is going to finish the siege of Riverrun? I think one of the places they stop he says that he wants the camp to be trenched, one of his commanders objects because supposedly there aren't any threats around but Jaime insists because he vowed never to be taken unawares again since the Whispering Wood.

[Andhaira]

Mat is ridiculous. He's ok forthe seies, but nothing liek the battlehardened veterants of ASOIAF. Heck, Khjal Drogo with his Khalasar of Dothraki Screamers would sweep over all the Seanchan lands, wiping them out. And whatever Seanchan manage to escape via sea, they will finds the IronBorn, led by Euron awaiting them.

[sologdin]

[i]forgetting a certain man with little fingers [/i]

i can't recall very well, but does jordan concern himself very much with how the warfare in his books is financed? these concerns are always an express limitation on quality and quantity of armies in martin, after all--it's almost like martin's quasi-realism is a disability in the confrontation against jordan's economic surrealism. of course jordan's militaries would win the engagement, because they have apparently limitless amounts of time, money, and materiel to wage war, not to mention that every person in the story has magicke faerie powers--a fey socialism, say. martin's magicke faerie powers, on the other hand, are distributed much more believably along market principles.

[CelticBrennus]

Eh, drop Tywin or Littlefinger into Randland and within two weeks they would be ruling the world while convincing Matt and Rand that they thought of it.

[Galactus]

[quote]i can't recall very well, but does jordan concern himself very much with how the warfare in his books is financed? these concerns are always an express limitation on quality and quantity of armies in martin, after all--it's almost like martin's quasi-realism is a disability in the confrontation against jordan's economic surrealism. of course jordan's militaries would win the engagement, because they have apparently limitless amounts of time, money, and materiel to wage war, not to mention that every person in the story has magicke faerie powers--a fey socialism, say. martin's magicke faerie powers, on the other hand, are distributed much more believably along market principles.[/quote]

It seems to be mainly a matter of financing by booty actually. There's some talk about it in some of the Aes Sedai politiciking chapters, IIRC.


[quote]Mat is ridiculous. He's ok forthe seies, but nothing liek the battlehardened veterants of ASOIAF. Heck, Khjal Drogo with his Khalasar of Dothraki Screamers would sweep over all the Seanchan lands, wiping them out. And whatever Seanchan manage to escape via sea, they will finds the IronBorn, led by Euron awaiting them.[/quote]

The Seanchan have [i]torm[/i], that horses simply cannot get near. They have [i]damane[/i] and it seems (from the descriptions) far better ship than the Ironborn. Not to mention that the Seanchan army probably outnumbers the entire population of the Iron Islands.


Not to mention that the ASOIAF world has nothing like the experience that Randland has with channelers. (Channelers are, for better or worse, a fact of life there, and anyone has to at least *consider* how to deal with them) Imagine the effect on a surprised army that does not even know anything like it exists.

They'd be torn to shreds.

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='sologdin' post='1583689' date='Nov 10 2008, 10.18'][i]forgetting a certain man with little fingers [/i]

i can't recall very well, but does jordan concern himself very much with how the warfare in his books is financed? these concerns are always an express limitation on quality and quantity of armies in martin, after all--it's almost like martin's quasi-realism is a disability in the confrontation against jordan's economic surrealism. of course jordan's militaries would win the engagement, because they have apparently limitless amounts of time, money, and materiel to wage war, not to mention that every person in the story has magicke faerie powers--a fey socialism, say. martin's magicke faerie powers, on the other hand, are distributed much more believably along market principles.[/quote]

Actually, I just finished a couple a chapters of PoD yesterday evening, and in one of them Egwene complains about lack of fund and three proposals by Aes Sedai how to deal with it (not paying the soldiers, taxing the surrounding villages, and getting support from nearby noble houses). But I don't think it is ever resolved.

[Ran]

Jordan's militaries are drawn from later historical time periods than Martin's. So, for example, most nations have a significant standing national military force, an innovation that showed up in Western Europe only at the end of the Middle Ages. For various reasons, the size of armies grew increasingly large as time passed, and I suppose Jordan's militaries sort of fall within this range.

So, accepting that Jordan's looking at basically a 17th century military model (less gunpowder, for the moment), the size of his military forces don't seem out of line. Your typical well-off Westlands kingdom, like Andor or Tear, is more densely populated and richer than your typical Seven Kingdoms region.