ASOIAF vs WOT

[alguien]

What someone said above, if the Randlanders invaded Westeros, they'd be cut off from the Source, and infected by a reality more "real" than their own. I think their skills might adjust to this as well.

Then they (the Randlanders) would be amazed at how every single person people they met had an [u]actual[/u] personality and fall to their knees, worshipping the beautiful depth and cunning insight of Hodor.

[CelticBrennus]

[quote]Like I said before, Westeros uses medieval tactics, European medieval tactics, which were very simplistic and mostly revolved around heavy cavalry.[/quote]

Not really. First of all heavy infantry played a major role in the majority of European nations during most of the middle ages, especially in England, the Low Countries, Italy, Germany and the Nordic countries. And dont knock the threat posed by those heavy cavalry, they dominated the battlefields of Europe for over a thousand years for a pretty good reason - it was very hard to find enough infantry well trained enough to be able to stand in front of a charge without breaking. And when you did get those guys, to have them be good enough to stand without breaking or even developing cracks in the line after being subjected to long range arrow fire or infantry engagements.

Ok, Randland has pikes, so the knights charge, and if the pikemen dont shit their pants and run, the knights pull short, and withdraw - like in real life. They dont go run onto pikes like in Braveheart.

Medieval tactics, much like modern tactics are usually pretty simple - find the enemy and hit them as hard as you can. In a world where there is little in the way of high speed accurate message services it can actually be pretty damn hard to find an enemy army and actually make them fight you. If one side didnt want to fight, they simply retreated, and force the other to pursue, sometimes for weeks on end - like Henry at Agincourt being chased by the French for quite some time before finally being forced to stand and fight (winning because it rained the night before).

The overarching problem of a Randland army invading is that they cant feed themselves. With no source, the Westerosi lords and lordlings shut themselves in their castles, and let these massive Randland armies wander around trying not to starve. Rand and Co find massive, well fortified and highly defended castles scattered around the countryside, and are forced to decide whether to storm them, or besiege them - balancing the time that would need with the amount of food they are able to find before starvation or disease sets in.

[Galactus]

[quote]The overarching problem of a Randland army invading is that they cant feed themselves.[/quote]

Depends entirely on what army we're talking about. If they have Asha'man or Aes Sedai (like just about every side does in the later stages of the series) they can bring in provisions via gateway.

And note that feeding an army was all but impossible in any case with medieval-ish logistics. Even a "friendly" one would strip the countryside bare within weeks.

[quote]With no source, the Westerosi lords and lordlings shut themselves in their castles, and let these massive Randland armies wander around trying not to starve.[/quote]

Except that cannons, or channelers, are going to tear through those castles like their walls were made out of paper. We aren't talking [i]trace italienne [/i]fortresses here after all.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I have to say I agree the choice of field is key. If the Randlanders can't channel they are eaten alive by Westrosi forces.

[VarysTheSpider]

Fuck the battles. To see the cast of WoT try and play politics in Westeros would be utterly hilarious.

[Slurktan]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1585022' date='Nov 11 2008, 12.18']I have to say I agree the choice of field is key. If the Randlanders can't channel they are eaten alive by Westrosi forces.[/quote]


Why? Because they have heavy cavalry? So do the Randland troops. What else do the Westerosi have? Pikemen? Sure so does the Randlanders. Longbows? I can't remember if there is any in Westeros. They certainly have them with the Two Rivers contingent though. You can't count Dothraki as they wouldn't fight with the Westerosi. So the Saldeans, Aiel, and Legion of the Dragon would feast on any army Westeros could muster. Honestly the Legion by itself would murder any Westerosi army.

And I haven't even brought in the cannons, or Grolm or the flying beasts I can't remember the name of, or the snake skinned tigers.

That's all without Channeling. Obviously with Channeling Westerosi have no chance in hell.

[CelticBrennus]

[quote]Depends entirely on what army we're talking about. If they have Asha'man or Aes Sedai (like just about every side does in the later stages of the series) they can bring in provisions via gateway.[/quote]

Hence the "no source" comment. I mean come on, when you give one side magic, it kinda makes things a little one sided. Unless Mel is popping out shadow babies on a pretty regular basis to knock off Rand and co.

[quote]And note that feeding an army was all but impossible in any case with medieval-ish logistics. Even a "friendly" one would strip the countryside bare within weeks.[/quote]

Which was why most medieval armies were pretty small compared to the number of soldiers there were around, most of the fighting was very small scale, and long term sieges were pretty rare.

[quote]Except that cannons, or channelers, are going to tear through those castles like their walls were made out of paper. We aren't talking trace italienne fortresses here after all.[/quote]

Depends on the cannons, the thickness of the walls, the size of the cannonballs, the amount of powder used, how many cannons there are etc....Its not like Mat is going to be wheeling up some WWI or WWII Krupp or Skoda artillery here or anything. Then you still get to try to figure out if you are going to be able to knock down enough of the walls in time to storm the castle before the besiegers start starving or plague breaks out. Or that the Maesters wont figure out gunpowder themselves in short order.

[Andhaira]

The castl eof Storms End can withstand any canons or channler weaves, since it was built to withstand magic. Furthermore the Children of the Forest can summon up their tsunamis to wipe out any randland force. The dothraki horselords can take on the aiel. The ironborn will ensure the seanchan die on the water before they reach land. As for channlers, the faceless men will figure out ways to take them out enmasse.

[Character Zero]

[quote name='Andhaira' post='1585063' date='Nov 11 2008, 12.52']The castl eof Storms End can withstand any canons or channler weaves, since it was built to withstand magic. Furthermore the Children of the Forest can summon up their tsunamis to wipe out any randland force. The dothraki horselords can take on the aiel. The ironborn will ensure the seanchan die on the water before they reach land. As for channlers, the faceless men will figure out ways to take them out enmasse.[/quote]
Now you just sound ridiculous.

[Galactus]

[quote]Hence the "no source" comment. I mean come on, when you give one side magic, it kinda makes things a little one sided. Unless Mel is popping out shadow babies on a pretty regular basis to knock off Rand and co.[/quote]

Of course. If your argument is "Full-strength westeros beats a crippled Randland" then yeah, I'd agree.

[quote]Depends on the cannons, the thickness of the walls, the size of the cannonballs, the amount of powder used, how many cannons there are etc....Its not like Mat is going to be wheeling up some WWI or WWII Krupp or Skoda artillery here or anything. Then you still get to try to figure out if you are going to be able to knock down enough of the walls in time to storm the castle before the besiegers start starving or plague breaks out. Or that the Maesters wont figure out gunpowder themselves in short order.[/quote]

You don't *need* Krupp or Skoda artillery. You need artillery functionally equivalent to late 15th century one. (given that Mat is actually planning on using cannons with explosive shells it seems he's actually ahead of that)

It might not take out Storm's End, true, and the Aerie might hold out in any case, but any lesser castle is toast. You need an entirely different type of castle to deal with artillery.

[quote]Furthermore the Children of the Forest can summon up their tsunamis to wipe out any randland force.[/quote]

We haven't actually seen them do any of this. And given that we would also give Randland Mosk and Merk's "Lances of fire" that levels entire cities.... :P

[quote]The ironborn will ensure the seanchan die on the water before they reach land.[/quote]

No they don't. The Ironborn ships are *very* clearly longships. Bigger than normal yes, but still with the same profile. The Seanchan ships (as described) are galleons or at least cogs.

The norwegian king actually did call out the old-style dragon ships against the cogs of the Hansa at one point. They got sunk. Quickly.

[Ran]

I'm pretty sure the Seanchan ships are [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)#15th-17th_century_junks_.28Ming_Dynasty.29"]junks[/url], actually, and more along the size of Zheng He's massive ships. The Seanchan vessels are described as huge, boxy, and featuring multiple ribbed sails.

In Europe, explosive shells are from the mid-late 16th century I think.

[Shryke]

The Legion of the Dragon are all armed with crossbows.

I don't see the Westeros forces enjoying that.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

Correct me if I'm wrong but Westeros is already dealing with Crossbows. Doesn't the kid at the inn hold a crossbow on Jamie while they're getting food on their way to KL?

[Slurktan]

There may be crossbows in Westeros. There is no evidence however of a trained professional 10,000 man (at least) army made up entirely of crossbowmen. Everything in Westeros would die very, very quickly upon fighting the Legion on an open field.

And then having the Legion backed up by trained professional pikemen (not militia, the Band of the Red Hand), Heavy Cavalry, cannon, Trained Light Cavalry (9k Saldean Cavalrymen), and oh let's go as few as 3 clans so roughly 50k Aiel. honestly how would the Weesterosi even remotely have a chance?

[CelticBrennus]

[quote]There may be crossbows in Westeros. There is no evidence however of a trained professional 10,000 man (at least) army made up entirely of crossbowmen. Everything in Westeros would die very, very quickly upon fighting the Legion on an open field.

And then having the Legion backed up by trained professional pikemen (not militia, the Band of the Red Hand), Heavy Cavalry, cannon, Trained Light Cavalry (9k Saldean Cavalrymen), and oh let's go as few as 3 clans so roughly 50k Aiel. honestly how would the Weesterosi even remotely have a chance?[/quote]

And, as pointed out, without magic, they all starve to death.

There have been, in Real Life, armies that had thousands of crossbowmen that accompanied them, and the crossbows themselves couldnt turn the tide, even massed longbow fire only was truly effective in situations that severely hampered the ability of cavalry in the first place - deep mud or atop large hills. Unless those crossbows are at least as well trained and have a better rate of fire then did Napoleonic era muskets, and the cannon more effective, they will not stop a cavalry charge.

Nevermind that if those cannons are either going to be very large, so as to be a threat to break down walls, and thus very heavy and hard to move around, or very small and light, and thus relatively little threat to a castle wall. I mean, the guns that the Ottomans used to break the walls of Constantinople were massive, weighing something like 10-20 tons each.

[Mister Manticore]

Hey, why are they fighting anyway?

Let's have them go invade D'hara instead!

[sologdin]

have melly pop out some shadowbabies and then cue the queen cover band.

[Slurktan]

[quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1585438' date='Nov 11 2008, 17.18']And, as pointed out, without magic, they all starve to death.

There have been, in Real Life, armies that had thousands of crossbowmen that accompanied them, and the crossbows themselves couldnt turn the tide, even massed longbow fire only was truly effective in situations that severely hampered the ability of cavalry in the first place - deep mud or atop large hills. Unless those crossbows are at least as well trained and have a better rate of fire then did Napoleonic era muskets, and the cannon more effective, they will not stop a cavalry charge.[/quote]


Ahh so you ignore the pikemen then.

[fionwe1987]

Hmmm... I agree that such a comparison makes no sense, but its fun!

Lack of food: The Aiel should survive. They are capable of carrying loads of food, rationing their use, and they use very little water. They managed a four year campaign in the Westlands with no supply train.
The Seanchan are a highly organized army that has done pretty well in an entirely hostile land. They do not use their channelers to get food, so the absence of channelers won't cripple them in the food department.

On their own, either the Aiel or the Seanchan can wipe out Westeros. They are too disciplined, well armed, and large to face many problems. The castles may be a problem for the Aiel, though the formidable defences of Cairhein seemed to faze them not at all. As for the Seanchan, they possess siege weapons, as well as raken. Raken make any defenses pretty useless.

[Vendetto]

Westeros has dragons. Raken vs. Dragons.... 3 dragons? laid an entire army to waste? The army was what probably 100,000 people? I think we understand that fully grown dragons are pretty huge... I don't think raken could compete with them.