The New New NFL thread

[Jaime L]

I agree there's often a tacit assumption that Pats fans are bandwagon fans where it may not be warranted, but I also think there's a reason for it. First of all anyone seen only supporting a team when it's on top of the league is generally seen as potentially a bandwagoner. Even if they're from that city. I know plenty of bandwagon Redskin fans who live here. Haven't seen 'em since 6-2 to be honest. Not that I hold it against 'em...too much anyway. It's only natural to be more excited and vocal about a team when it's going well. It happens to greater or lesser extents in all of us.

Not to mention for those of rooting for losing teams, won of the few silver linings we have is knowing we'll never be accused of being bandwagon fans (Y-Dub in the hizzy!) But it also makes us suspicious of those having happier fan experiences.

And on this board there are 4-5 times as many Pats fans as any other team. For whatever reason. Maybe every last one was crying into their Tony Eason/Drew Bledsoe footie pajamas. Maybe there's something about A Song of Ice and Fire that they can relate to their fan experience. (EX: A lot of Redskin seasons remind me of the Red Wedding) And maybe others jumped on when the team started getting better. No shame in that. I think 90% of us started rooting for a team during its salad days..it's only natural to get swept up in the excitement of an emerging bandwagon.

But really, if someone's accusing you of being a bandwagon fan, and you know that's untrue...should be fun to smack 'em down and prove 'em wrong. I've seen plenty of posts on this board that reflect the longterm suffering certain individuals have experienced with their team of choice. And y'also prove 'em wrong by knowing your stuff and not saying stupid shit...which I don't feel like folks do that much around here to be honest. Think there's a lot of good fans 'round here.

And maybe it's something I'm not sensitive to, because my team isn't good enough to get my fanhood questioned. But if it ever were, I'd be excited by that. What a chance to just unload...:P

[Bronn Stone]

Jaime only loves Alexis now that she is beautiful. He'll dump her like old laundry after the first wrinkle or grey hair.

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Jaime L' post='1621477' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.09']But really, if someone's accusing you of being a bandwagon fan, and you know that's untrue...should be fun to smack 'em down and prove 'em wrong. I've seen plenty of posts on this board that reflect the longterm suffering certain individuals have experienced with their team of choice. And y'also prove 'em wrong by knowing your stuff and not saying stupid shit...which I don't feel like folks do that much around here to be honest. Think there's a lot of good fans 'round here.

And maybe it's something I'm not sensitive to, because my team isn't good enough to get my fanhood questioned. But if it ever were, I'd be excited by that. What a chance to just unload...:P[/quote]
I'd rather just avoid the fanhood sincerity evaluations altogether. It's the football thread equivalent of politicians questioning each other's patriotism.

[Jaime L]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1621480' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.11']Jaime only loves Alexis now that she is beautiful. He'll dump her like old laundry after the first wrinkle or grey hair.[/quote]

There's no question I'm a total fair weather fan when it comes to Alexis.

Which [i]proves[/i] my love of the Redskins run deeper.

(Though Alexis, if you're reading this...[i]I can change[/i])

[quote name='DanteGabriel' post='1621484' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.15']I'd rather just avoid the fanhood sincerity evaluations altogether. It's the football thread equivalent of politicians questioning each other's patriotism.[/quote]

Ideally yeah.

But using the same analogy and you're in a political debate with someone who doesn't know crap about the issues, of course you'll question their sincerity. (Note: I'm not saying anyone here is like that). I'll give more credence to those opinions I believe reflect the perspective of years following the sport.

[Kalbear]

[quote]That means you lived through the "Mike Ditka Overrated" years, the "Mike Ditka Yelling A Lot But Not Doing Anything" years, and the "Mike Ditka is a Profound Embarrasment and Maybe the Saints Will Be Stupid Enough To Hire Him" years[/quote]Ditka is a god and you will learn to show the proper respect, boy.

Okay, it was all Buddy Ryan and some exceptionally good defense recruiting talent along with having one of the best running backs to ever play the game. He was damn entertaining though, and he was Chicago, through and through.

As to the bandwagon thing - part of it is that I think we all know That Guy. I certainly do. This was the guy who decided that he liked the Pats in 2001 during the superbowl - and is 30 and lived in Minnesota for most of his life. Who roots against Minnesota when they play the Pats. Who is now a rabid Pats fan and cried when Brady got hurt. (okay, he might not have cried, but he did throw his hat). I don't think Nora is a bandwagoner; I remember her talking about how she started liking the Pats, and it made sense. I know Rock isn't. But there are definitely a whole hell of a lot of Pats fans who are, and they're already trying to find the next team they love.

[Rockroi]

[quote]And on this board there are 4-5 times as many Pats fans as any other team. For whatever reason. Maybe every last one was crying into their Tony Eason/Drew Bledsoe footie pajamas. Maybe there's something about A Song of Ice and Fire that they can relate to their fan experience. (EX: A lot of Redskin seasons remind me of the Red Wedding) And maybe others jumped on when the team started getting better. No shame in that. I think 90% of us started rooting for a team during its salad days..it's only natural to get swept up in the excitement of an emerging bandwagon.[/quote]

1: I am a little miffed here. As unfulfilling as he was, Drew Bledsoe is, like, 15x the QB that Tony Eason was. I don't like the connotation that he and Eason are associated together, even in teh "footie pajama" area.

2: I think you hit the nail on the head with the "SoIaF" comment. I did not read these boards until after 2000- the year Song of Swords was released, and I made a few comments on the Pats back then. Mostly, it was, I am serious here, the fact that I thought we should have kept Bledsoe over Brady. Yeah... how'd that work out for me? Regardless, it was timing, frankly. I don't visit a lot of other message boards and the Pats just got hot here. I mean... I remember when Pete Carrol was NOT being featured on 60 minutes, and there was a reason for it!

3: I think the question is one of honesty and integrity. I think, as a critical listener, one is more apt to listen to somebody who has been there for the good AND the bad, and not just the good. Unless you are a Lions fan, and its all been bad. I think that their is an inherent integrity with people who stick with a crappy team- they are loyal through thick and thin. That's just a personal perpective. Which is why I always get bent out of shape when this subject comes up. Peopel are always saying it about Pats fans; its sort of the the last rung of progression:

1. You're team sucks
2. You're team is going to lose
3. You're team got lucky!
4. You're team cannot retain that level.
5. You're team is not as good as (insert team of the past here)
6. Jesus Christ, I am so sick of hearing about you're team! Just go away!
7. Well... you're not even a REAL fan!

And it gets old.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='DanteGabriel' post='1621484' date='Dec 16 2008, 11.15']I'd rather just avoid the fanhood sincerity evaluations altogether. It's the football thread equivalent of politicians questioning each other's [b]patriotism[/b].[/quote] [i]emphasis mine[/i]

Interesting choice of words. :P

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1621525' date='Dec 16 2008, 11.41']2: I think you hit the nail on the head with the "SoIaF" comment. I did not read these boards until after 2000- the year Song of Swords was released, and I made a few comments on the Pats back then.[/quote]

Is Rock inventing ASOIAF books now?

[Kalbear]

[quote]Unless you are a Lions fan, and its all been bad.[/quote]I dunno. Barry Sanders was a lot of fun to watch.

[Rockroi]

[quote]Ditka is a god and you will learn to show the proper respect, boy.

Okay, it was all Buddy Ryan and some exceptionally good defense recruiting talent along with having one of the best running backs to ever play the game. He was damn entertaining though, and he was Chicago, through and through.[/quote]

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! I AM showing proper respect! I love crazy peopel who just yell a lot! Seriously, the 1985 Bears were THAT team- the team everyone knew was going to win. I rememeber in 1985 as they MOWED DOWN everything in their path and the playoff started and they beat the Rams like 35-3 (or something like that) and I remembered thinking- "why do the other teams even try? I mean, they KNOW they are going to lose! Why do their fans even prepend to think their team can win?" And then I remembered that the Pats were, like, one of those teams who could have pretended. But the whole thing was that the Raiders or Jets would beat us; certainly the Dolphins! And then we were "next" and I just KNEW we were toast.

[quote]As to the bandwagon thing - part of it is that I think we all know That Guy. I certainly do. This was the guy who decided that he liked the Pats in 2001 during the superbowl - and is 30 and lived in Minnesota for most of his life. Who roots against Minnesota when they play the Pats....[/quote]

But again, Kal; my comment was that there has been no recent Bears Bandwagon. And there really has not been. Even in 2006, their SB year, there was a lot of Bears resentment because of Grossman (ie- the Bears kept making us watch games that involved Rex Grossman). There was never this swell of "EveryoneIsNowABearsFan" like there was with the Colts taht season. By NFL fiat, everyone living outside of Chicago and outside of the greater NE area WAS REQUIRED BY LAW to root for the Colts. Members of the media were actually forced into "Colts Cultural Camps" so they could properly show respect for the team. Hence, my comment (whichw as a joke) I still stand by.

[quote]I dunno. Barry Sanders was a lot of fun to watch.[/quote]

Kal... come on... I'm just trying to get some cheap laughs here. Obviously, Barry was phenomenal to the point of rediculousness. The man was, in my ever-so-limited opinion, the best running bcak I ever saw in my lifetime.

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1621522' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.39']Ditka is a god and you will learn to show the proper respect, boy.[/quote]
"Anybody who would give the ball to Refrigerator Perry instead of Sweetness doesn't have very good judgment." -- Barack Obama

[url="http://www.npr.org/blogs/newsandviews/2008/10/barack_obama_on_commanding_a_f.html"]http://www.npr.org/blogs/newsandviews/2008...anding_a_f.html[/url]

I forgot that Ditka almost ran against Obama for that Senate seat in 2004...


[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1621526' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.41'][i]emphasis mine[/i]

Interesting choice of words. :P[/quote]
It's not my fault America has a Patriot bias. :P

[Kalbear]

[quote]"Anybody who would give the ball to Refrigerator Perry instead of Sweetness doesn't have very good judgment." -- Barack Obama[/quote]If Obama was a libertarian who ran on a campaign of mutilating kittens, I'd still have voted for him based on that line.

Still rankles me that Payton never got a TD in the superbowl. I mean...they had Perry THROW THE BALL. Bah. I know the defense basically allowed the Bears to do whatever the fuck they wanted to on offense - and Ditka did exactly that - but ugh. I also know that the Pats plan was basically 'stop Payton', but again - ugh. Damn regretful. Never did forgive Ditka for that.

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1621572' date='Dec 16 2008, 15.14']Still rankles me that Payton never got a TD in the superbowl.[/quote]
I'm not even a Bears fan and that one rankles me.

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1621572' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.14']If Obama was a libertarian who ran on a campaign of mutilating kittens, I'd still have voted for him based on that line.[/quote]
He seems to be a very smart sports fan. Too bad he can't put in a good word for Donovan.

[Mack Kilimaro]

This bandwagon dustup in this thread is interesting discussion. I think there is something else at play here that hasn't been touched on with the bandwagon fan thing. There's also the matter of geography to consider.

There are bandwagon fans who are local people who suddenly decide to pay attention when their team's winning, then there are people in other parts of the country who are suddenly professing to be fans of a big-market, popular and winning team. To Pats fans living in New England I'm sure the former are the most annoying: people who are on board for the winning years, maybe you see them in the office or at the bar and they try to act like they've been fans for life but if you try to actually engage them in conversation you quickly see they are fair weather fans.

To people who are in other parts of the country who've frankly gotten New England Championship Overload this decade between two for the Red Sox, throw in the Patriots winning shit in there and the Celtics winning the NBA last season, well, they're probably quick to see a bandwagon fan if there is no obvious geographical connection with a person they meet.

"Yeah, I love Boston teams, I always have!"
"You remember when the Rocket was pitching for the Sox?"
"Who?"
"You know, Roger Clemens?"
"Yeah, I was there for his first start! We were sitting on the Green Monster!"

I don't think anybody in the sports threads on this board displays this kind of behavior. For some people the connection might not always be obvious but I wouldn't call bandwagon on any of the Pats fans around here or anybody else.

Especially not Starkess because, native Marylander that I am, I'm not saying anything bad about someone who goes to the Naval Academy.

[Rockroi]

There will always be some bandwagonness. That's the nature of society and sports. People, instinctively, want to find connections with other people. They see teh other people involved in something they could have a connection to and they want to be a PART of that. That's human nature. But those people are not fans in the smae sense that I am a fan of the Pats and Red Sox.

As an example, lets use my affiliation with the OTHER two Boston sports teams, the Celtics and the Bruins; both currently in first place. I am NOT a "fan" of either team in that I did not follow either team after a certain point in my life (Bruins never captured my interest after Nealy retired; the Celtics right when M.L. Carr took over the team). I just could not generate enough interest over either team, even though they have since experienced some level of success. Sure, I was happy when the Celtics won the 2008 NBA title, but I could NEVER pass myself off as a fan; I do not "bleed green" as the saying goes. Hence, I would NEVER state that I was a Celtics fan.

I don't have a problem if somebody were to say to me, "Yeah, I am happy the Pats won 3 Superbowls but I am really not a fan." And once you lay that foundation, I cannot really complain too much. It is the person who is disengenous about their fandom that irks me. The guy who loves the Pats... "Since, you know, when they were REALLY bad ... in 2002!" Okay, those people can STFU. Red Sox fans... seriously, if you did not see the ball go through Bucker's legs or watch as He who's Name Must Not Be Spoken keep Pedro in there in the 8th... you are not a Red Sox fan. I'm sorry, but you had to have lived through that to get the JOY of watching Roberts steal second.

For the Pats its different in that it was NEVER "heart arche"; it was more perpetual mediocrity. We were just another bad team in a league that could safely forget about us. We had not won a home playoff game... EVER! We were 28 out f 28 teams in revenue in 1994 (the year Kraft bought the team). Holy God, that sucks. To be a Pats fan is to basically understand that you lived through the Rod Rust era; the "We-Are-So-Dilusional-We-Think-Dick-McPherson-Is-A-Good-Coach" era; the "Hugh Millen" era (shut up, I love Millen). The fact is, you know what being bad is all about and you STILL watched the games (evcen when they were blacked out... which was like all the time).

Thus, for 2001-present, its like a fucking joy ride! I mean... the Patriots as a dynasty? WTF?!?!!111?! You know this team drafted Heart Lee Dykes over Andre Rison, right? I mean, Eugene Chung was to be our anchor! How F**king bad is that? So when you see that Jerrad Mayo is the inside track to ROTY you STILL think... "Really?" And when we are 11-5 and NOT going to make the playoffs, the part of you that REMEBERS THAT LEONARD RUSSELL WAS GOING TO BE OUR SAVIOR AT ONE TIME... thinks, "That's a pretty good season!"

THAT'S a FAN!

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1621526' date='Dec 16 2008, 15.41']Is Rock inventing ASOIAF books now?[/quote]

There is an interesting irony of messing the title of the book up in the middle of a bandwagon discussion...I'm not saying, I'm just saying, you know...?

[Piper]

[quote name='Jaime L' post='1621477' date='Dec 16 2008, 14.09']I agree there's often a tacit assumption that Pats fans are bandwagon fans where it may not be warranted, but I also think there's a reason for it. First of all anyone seen only supporting a team when it's on top of the league is generally seen as potentially a bandwagoner. Even if they're from that city. I know plenty of bandwagon Redskin fans who live here. Haven't seen 'em since 6-2 to be honest. Not that I hold it against 'em...too much anyway. It's only natural to be more excited and vocal about a team when it's going well. It happens to greater or lesser extents in all of us.[/quote]

See, I think this conflates two types of "fans": you have bandwagon fans, and fair weather fans.

Bandwagon fans adopt a team when they are good; fair weather fans are already fans in the sense that the Patriots (for example) are "their team," but they don't really care, watch the games, buy jerseys, etc, until their team gets good.

I think fair weather fandom, is, as you say, natural, although somewhat disappointing whenever you meet the type. Bandwagon fans are generally unforgivable.

[grozeng]

7 Pro Bowlers. Wow. Favre is questionable at best, but the other guys are definitely deserving. I wish Kerry Rhodes would finally be voted in. He deserved it the past 2 years but this year Polamalu was better and I guess Chris Hope has a couple more INTs.

[Week]

Subtract Favre's one excellent game this year (6 TDs) and his numbers are extremely pedestrian. Fewer TDs than picks without that game. That is seriously a pathetic choice.

[grozeng]

[quote name='Weekapaug' post='1622693' date='Dec 17 2008, 10.18']Subtract Favre's one excellent game this year (6 TDs) and his numbers are extremely pedestrian. Fewer TDs than picks without that game. That is seriously a pathetic choice.[/quote]

Well if you take away that game and his worse game vs Oakland he has more TDs then INTs

But I probably would have given his spot to Pennington or Cutler.