Battlestar Galactica: This Thread has Happened Before and Will Happen Again

[Werthead]

I think the general thrust of the story is good, and they are addressing the reason the previous coup crisis (such as the one at the end of Season 1/start of Season 2) was able to go off without a problem, namely that the military was fully unified under Adama and Tigh. By splintering the military, they are able to revisit the same concept in a somewhat different manner.

However, there is a problem with Gaeta being the fulcrum around which the rebellion swings. He isn't a renowned leader of men, as mentioned earlier, and in fact was regarded himself very badly at the start of Season 3. I'm assuming that once people learned that his actions during the New Caprica storyline helped get everyone off the planet, he would be regarded much more highly, but there never was any evidence of that in the series. Whilst Gaeta's actions themselves are fully comprehensible (there were signs of him losing it on New Caprica, and stabbing Baltar in the neck, lying on the stand during Baltar's trial, losing his leg and the incident in the webisodes have all furthered that course), I'm not sure if I'm willing to believe he could carry so many of the other military personnel with him.

Maybe if they explained it that the military officers joining him in the coup were ex-[i]Pegasus[/i] crew who've never felt comfortable or at home with Adama in charge that would be more plausible:

SPOILER: BSG

And the promo shows that Narcho, [i]Pegasus[/i]' highest-ranking Viper pilot, is probably in on the conspiracy as well.

[Lord of Oop North]

Another thing,

SPOILER: 4x12

I assume Tigh must have told them that Ellen is the Fifth?

[Werthead]

The episode has aired so I don't think we need spoilers.

Yes, according to the podcast Tigh has told Adama, Lee and Roslin. Although Zarek doesn't seem to be too surprised at the revelation, I find it hard to swallow that anyone would have told him as well.

[Wouter]

[quote name='Crow's Eye' post='1659911' date='Jan 23 2009, 20.49']1. If the hub was spooled up and ready to jump, it could in theory be gone before any potential threat could do any damage. I thought they made it pretty clear in the show that the hub jumped around frequently, meaning that deploying and then re-acquring a CAP at each jump would be a tremendous waste of time and fuel.

2. Protect it against who? I don't think that the Cavils, etc. ever thought, in their wildest dreams, that the rebel Cylons would sacrifice their own immortality by destroying the hub, nor would they expect the rebels to disclose the existence and location(s) of the hub to the humans.

That being said, it is pretty silly that the Resurrection Ship in the Pegasus arc had at least three baseships guarding it, along with swarms of raiders, and the Hub only has a random baseship that doesn't really even react when a rebel baseship jumps in and deploys dozens of heavy raiders in an attack run.[/quote]
1. Cylon ships are very rapidly able to jump again after a previous jump, as was demonstrated in a couple of episodes, ironically including the jumps in "the hub" itself. It should have been gone before the attack could have damaged it, but the plot called for its destruction and they couldn't find a more plausible way so they just made it happen with writer-induced stupidity. Furthermore, the Cylons don't worry about their carbon footprint and protecting this ultra-important piece of equipment, which is irreplaceable (and we have just learned that the resurrection ship apparently can't even activate new "blank" Cylons anymore, without the hub - looks like resurrection ship are just fancy bodycarriers with an antenna that can't do anything at all by themselves), is worth all the fuel and time needed for it. Not protecting it because this costs fuel is an obvious and extreme example of penny wise, pound stupid.

2. The cavils had themselves cutoff the other Cylons from resurrection, by controlling the resurrection ships and the hub (Natalie and co very stupidly left all that, plus half the baseships, to the Cavils after their apparent victory in the Centurion civil war). It is also the location where the 3s are stored. When they appeared next to the hub, without making contact, and launching multiple heavy raiders, one would think a rational guy like Cavil would get a clue, and act on it.

3. Indeed, the defending baseships barely even react. They don't try to get between the hub and the attackers, the Vipers hardly got attacked at all. Leisurely firing a few lowyield missiles at the rebel baseship, was about all they did.

This new episode was more disappointment. RDM has admitted the Nicky thing was a retcon because they didn't want to deal with the consequences of making Tyrol a Cylon, and it is a spectacularly bad one. This comes completely out of left field - and this after Cally's shock marriage to Tyrol already was a very odd move. They've now managed to make both Tyrol and Cally unlikeable, Cally posthumously being revealed as having cheated on Tyrol even as she was about to ask him to marry, Tyrol now suddenly identifying with the Cylons he has fought for 4 years, who killed so many people, including a hostage deckhand mere days ago. But now it is "his" baseship, apparently. With "Sharons and 6s" on it...
BSG has the reputation of being a character driven show, but this is undeserved. The writers steer their characters with heavy hand, in the direction required by the plot or for shock value. Regardless of previous history or what could be expected.

The scene between child-killing Caprica-6 and hardboiled Tigh, with the child on the scan, was quite nauseating, though I liked that at least the nurse seemed to have the same sentiment.

On a similar note, I enjoyed Gaeta laying on Starbuck. What he said was correct (minus Anders, but it's a not unreasonable conclusion to take given his experiences with Cylons), and Kara really deserved it after trying to get him killed (as part of a committee that turns out to be Cylon-run) and costing him his leg as well, with her stupidity on "Demetrius". And of course, Kara never even said sorry. Gaeta and Zarek also have some good points regarding their new Cylon "friends", which are still unreliable killers that could turn on them at any moment, especially once they can get their hands on the fuel ship (with help of their tech, which tends to have nasty backdoors build in, as Baltar can testify). A pity that the show will never let them succeed to any level worth mentioning, as it is clear who are RDM's heroes.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1661246' date='Jan 24 2009, 16.21']This new episode was more disappointment. RDM has admitted the Nicky thing was a retcon because they didn't want to deal with the consequences of making Tyrol a Cylon, and it is a spectacularly bad one. This comes completely out of left field - and this after Cally's shock marriage to Tyrol already was a very odd move. They've now managed to make both Tyrol and Cally unlikeable, Cally posthumously being revealed as having cheated on Tyrol even as she was about to ask him to marry, Tyrol now suddenly identifying with the Cylons he has fought for 4 years, who killed so many people, including a hostage deckhand mere days ago. But now it is "his" baseship, apparently. With "Sharons and 6s" on it...[/quote]

Hard to call it a retcon when it was clearly decided at the same point as Tyrol being a Cylon AND has been established if not by any active discussion, by the total absence of any attention being paid to the child. In fact, it probably is the only explanation that makes sense for why any Cylon encountering Hera makes a huge deal of her but Nicky was and is totally ignored.

RDM points out in the interview Wert links above that Cally's 'courtship' was short enough that she wasn't actually cheating on the Chief. And since her marriage happened out of the blue for us, we really aren't in a position to say how it happened.

Tyrol fought Cylons, but he also loved Sharon. And then turned his back on her because she was a Cylon. And thinks that Cally did the same to him because HE was a Cylon. Were he not more than a little screwed up in the head by things, I think it would lack credibility. I think the Final Four have handled their discovery all in different and interesting ways. Tigh is just trying to pretend it doesn't happen, Tory has embraced the role and would probably be with Cavil were the option open to her, Anders is focused totally on Starbuck (who is still a mystery) and Tyrol is just plain confused. I am very much enjoying their development.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1661263' date='Jan 24 2009, 19.42']In fact, it probably is the only explanation that makes sense for why any Cylon encountering Hera makes a huge deal of her but Nicky was and is totally ignored.[/quote]

I don't know that that is the only explanation: the regular Cylons didn't know about Tyrol until only a few weeks before the events of this episode, at which point they were dealing with a number of other pressing issues. Until the start of this episode, there wasn't really any mystery that needed to be explained.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Rockroi,

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1660545' date='Jan 23 2009, 23.33']Can't it be both?

Very "meh" episode. Another time the civilian, elected government tries to enforce the will of the people, another time Adama just ignores it, and another time everyone just lies down in the face of his ... enthusiasm.
Couldn't ANYONE say to Adama, "Excuse me, yes you- the pock-marked face guy who seems utterly incapable of understanding the phenomenon of "other people." Yes. uhm... you see, this may sound crazy, but you know that we- this society- so minuscule as it is - actually have to have some say in our life and our demise? We- the people who run the ships, live the lives, toil and die - WE should have some say in who we will spend our days with, how we will live, and now how we will die. And so we elected all these people- Tom Z among them. And our will was that THEY should be our voice. When their voice becomes too shrill, we will toss them aside, but that is OUR choice. NOT YOURS! So, WE decided that WE did not want to live next to Cylons- I know this may sound crazy to you, but the Cylons are responsible for the death of 99.99999998% of the people who existed in our lifetimes. So, yes, WE should have some say that even though there may be value in being next to Cylons, that the Cylons may have 'learned their lesson', and that they can assist us in our life/death, that we MAY STILL NOT WANT TO! That humans MAY not want to do what YOU- an unelected monarch -may want. See, yes, I guess you are intelligent, you are kindly (jury still out), but you are still a dictator, and sitting here at the edge of Armageddon, that is not how WE HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVE! So, please, take your sanctimonious babble, you high-minded arrogance, shove them up your tight-ass, and allow ME- a HUMAN BEING -decide how I want to live, how I want to survive, and how I want to die. I have chosen others to be my voice- as all sensible citizens will do, and they chose a course of action. Step aside and allow our will to be enacted. Even if it leads to our (almost assured) demise. Because at this point, the free will to chose HOW we end seems to be the only choice left to us."

Is that so hard?[/quote]

So Adama should just sit down, shut up, and let the remnant of the human species stupid itself to death? An alliance that more than triples the distance fleet ships can jump and doubles the defensive capacity of a fleet in desperate need of reinforcement seems quite reasonable. Given the desperate straights the fleet is in a little revolution right now sounds rather suicidal.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1661520' date='Jan 25 2009, 00.22']So Adama should just sit down, shut up, and let the remnant of the human species stupid itself to death? An alliance that more than triples the distance fleet ships can jump and doubles the defensive capacity of a fleet in desperate need of reinforcement seems quite reasonable. Given the desperate straights the fleet is in a little revolution right now sounds rather suicidal.[/quote]

Well, that's one way to view it. Another is that the rebel Cylons are a remora merely looking for any shark that'll take 'em, and that any technology they give to the humans will be riddled with traps and tricks and viruses. The Cylons have quite a history with this kind of thing, as you may recall. They also have a history of genocide and tyranny, which makes them doubly untrustworthy.

Also, the rebels demand citizenship and the protection of the human government, but are they ready to submit to the authority of that government? Really ready? Or do they want [i]Galactica[/i]'s protection only on their terms? Seems to me that if the Sagittarons had some piece of wonder tech they'd be required to share it. If they're given citizenship, will the rebels open up their databases for inspection and sharing? Doubt it. No deal.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1661566' date='Jan 25 2009, 00.57']Well, that's one way to view it. Another is that the rebel Cylons are a remora merely looking for any shark that'll take 'em, and that any technology they give to the humans will be riddled with traps and tricks and viruses. The Cylons have quite a history with this kind of thing, as you may recall. They also have a history of genocide and tyranny, which makes them doubly untrustworthy.

Also, the rebels demand citizenship and the protection of the human government, but are they ready to submit to the authority of that government? Really ready? Or do they want [i]Galactica[/i]'s protection only on their terms? Seems to me that if the Sagittarons had some piece of wonder tech they'd be required to share it. If they're given citizenship, will the rebels open up their databases for inspection and sharing? Doubt it. No deal.[/quote]

You have the very real threats mentioned here, you have the rather excessive demands, plus the fact that humans have survived thus far without triple jump tech, which while it'd be nice to have, it isn't an absolute matter of life and death. There are more than enough reasons to resist this cylon tech that have nothing to do with blind hate and bigotry. The survivors of the human race have every reason to be suspicious and resistant. And they don't have much of a reason to simply take Adama's word for it that these Cylons can be trusted. They haven't had all the dealings with them that he has. Nor has he been much more than a jackass whenever he's talked directly to the rest of the fleet (winning press conferences), what they know of him personally is only through glances and glimpses plus rumor. And no doubt alot of that is gonna be bad.

I know I've said before that humanity facing extinction would eagerly rally around a dictatorial strongman, but all those strongmen throughout history have done their share to cultivate their own cult of personality. Adama has not done this. He doesn't give a shit about his own PR and that sort of short-sightedness is costing him.

[RWHamel]

I think the question should be why not 100% of the human race? It turns out that Galactica, the fleet, and the leadership have all been so well infiltrated, that escaping the Cylons should have been impossible. In fact, anyone of the narrow escapes should have been failures.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='RWHamel']I think the question should be why not 100% of the human race? It turns out that Galactica, the fleet, and the leadership have all been so well infiltrated, that escaping the Cylons should have been impossible. In fact, anyone of the narrow escapes should have been failures.[/quote]

But then we wouldn't have a show, would we?

Or are you suggesting that the Cylons proceeded with their attack in the matter they did to further some nebulous goal? That they followed a certain predefined pattern, that they had drawn up, for lack of a better word, some kind of a [i]plan[/i]?

[Wouter]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1661263' date='Jan 25 2009, 01.42']Hard to call it a retcon when it was clearly decided at the same point as Tyrol being a Cylon AND has been established if not by any active discussion, by the total absence of any attention being paid to the child. In fact, it probably is the only explanation that makes sense for why any Cylon encountering Hera makes a huge deal of her but Nicky was and is totally ignored.

RDM points out in the interview Wert links above that Cally's 'courtship' was short enough that she wasn't actually cheating on the Chief. And since her marriage happened out of the blue for us, we really aren't in a position to say how it happened.[/quote]
A weak explanation by RDM. It obviously was meant to be Tyrol's and Cally's child at least up to "Crossroads", so throughout S3. Sometime after that, they decided they didn't want to deal with another hybrid child (as if this would be impossible) or to make Cally the final Cylon (would have been way better than Ellen IMO), so they decided to retcon it away. They was never even the very slightest hint of something between Hotdog and Cally; this is just weak sauce. A twist of soapy proportions. Cally's and Tyrol's marriage itself was already very shocking at the time (though at least this did not come totally without hints, unlike the hotdog thing now), and I think they decided in S4 they wanted to undo the consequences of this turn taken in late S2; they "reset" Tyrol to pre-Cally state, pretty much. For someone who criticised the reset button and the lack of lasting consequences in shows like ST: Voyager, RDM sure likes using those devices himself when it suits him.

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1661263' date='Jan 25 2009, 01.42']Tyrol fought Cylons, but he also loved Sharon. And then turned his back on her because she was a Cylon. And thinks that Cally did the same to him because HE was a Cylon. Were he not more than a little screwed up in the head by things, I think it would lack credibility.[/quote]
Tyrol being messed up is OK. Tyrol taking about the baseship Cylons as "us" and the people in the fleet as "them" is extremely disappointing. Sharon herself didn't do this for a long time after her "rebirth" among the Cylons, and Tyrol doesn't even know the rebel Cylons well at all, other then that only a few days ago they were pointing nukes at him and they murdered one of his own deckhands. I would also have expected Tyrol to be the last one to talk about "Sharons" as if that name is just a synonym for a number 8 Cylon. You would think he'd reserve the name for one particular 8 (or perhaps 2 at most) - unless he thinks they're all perfectly interchangeable anyway.

[Wouter]

[quote name='RWHamel' post='1661654' date='Jan 25 2009, 11.56']I think the question should be why not 100% of the human race? It turns out that Galactica, the fleet, and the leadership have all been so well infiltrated, that escaping the Cylons should have been impossible. In fact, anyone of the narrow escapes should have been failures.[/quote]
Part of the infilltration was exactly the problem. So, they had Galactica well infiltrated with (a) Doral (who didn't do anything worthwhile) and (b) 3 Cylons who didn't know they were Cylons, and 2 of them weren't even known to the other Cylons (so not much of an infiltration). The third Cylon who didn't know what she was actually is responsible for putting together most of the escaping fleet, so the Cylons shot themselves in the foot bigtime.

Regarding

Trackerneill;
[quote]Well, that's one way to view it. Another is that the rebel Cylons are a remora merely looking for any shark that'll take 'em, and that any technology they give to the humans will be riddled with traps and tricks and viruses. The Cylons have quite a history with this kind of thing, as you may recall. They also have a history of genocide and tyranny, which makes them doubly untrustworthy.[/quote]
It is probably no coincidence that Zarek let the fuel ship jump, since this is the ship the Cylons really need - if they can take it over with their tech (so they can control when and where it jumps, for example), they don't need Galactica and the rest anymore. The Cylon baseship is a powerful warship in its own right (as it demonstrated in "the hub" and "revelations"), and it doesn't need Galactica for protection. They do need a source for fuel, and perhaps some other supplies, though. Given how fickle the Cylons are (they change their mind every five minutes about whether or not they want to kill humans), I can understand people aren't jumping for joy to allow potential Cylon saboteurs on their ships. Why would they trust the bastards?

[AverageGuy]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1661520' date='Jan 25 2009, 00.22']doubles the defensive capacity of a fleet in desperate need of reinforcement[/quote]
If the Cylons are no longer against them, does it really matter if the Cylons are with them for this? Have they run into anyone else?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

AG,

They aren't offering an alliance with "the Cylons." They are offering an alliance with the Cylons on the rebel baseship. The one that will not survive long term on its own. It needs the alliance as much as the fleet does. The Cavel, Doral, and Simon Cylons are still out there. Presumably very pissed off at the humans and Rebels who guaranteed their extinction. One questionably fertile female will not allow them to reproduce.

Tracker,

You sound a great deal like the supporters of Israel who you savage in GC. If any sort of peace is to exist it demands a leap of faith. It's a risk, but it's a risk I don't think they can afford to pass up. Previously they had some sort of destination in mind. Now it's a blind search without even a concrete planet to hope for there is no way to know where such a home will be found or when and tripling jump distances and improving defenses is a necessity dispite past sucesses without such aid.

[Werthead]

[quote name='AverageGuy' post='1661706' date='Jan 25 2009, 13.56']If the Cylons are no longer against them, does it really matter if the Cylons are with them for this? Have they run into anyone else?[/quote]

As Scot says, Team Cavill are still out there and D'Anna at least was convinced he would follow and try to destroy the rest of them.

[Crow's Eye]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1661246' date='Jan 24 2009, 19.21']On a similar note, I enjoyed Gaeta laying on Starbuck. What he said was correct (minus Anders, but it's a not unreasonable conclusion to take given his experiences with Cylons), and Kara really deserved it after trying to get him killed (as part of a committee that turns out to be Cylon-run) and costing him his leg as well, with her stupidity on "Demetrius". And of course, Kara never even said sorry. Gaeta and Zarek also have some good points regarding their new Cylon "friends", which are still unreliable killers that could turn on them at any moment, especially once they can get their hands on the fuel ship (with help of their tech, which tends to have nasty backdoors build in, as Baltar can testify). A pity that the show will never let them succeed to any level worth mentioning, as it is clear who are RDM's heroes.

[...]

It is probably no coincidence that Zarek let the fuel ship jump, since this is the ship the Cylons really need - if they can take it over with their tech (so they can control when and where it jumps, for example), they don't need Galactica and the rest anymore. The Cylon baseship is a powerful warship in its own right (as it demonstrated in "the hub" and "revelations"), and it doesn't need Galactica for protection. They do need a source for fuel, and perhaps some other supplies, though. Given how fickle the Cylons are (they change their mind every five minutes about whether or not they want to kill humans), I can understand people aren't jumping for joy to allow potential Cylon saboteurs on their ships. Why would they trust the bastards?[/quote]

This is all why I see Zarek's reaction as entirely expected and realistic. The fleet placed its trust in Roslin and Adama and the whole Earth story, and now that's done. Why would they continue to trust these two, who were so spectacularly wrong about Earth? Roslin isn't even in the picture anymore, as far as the civilians and government are concerned, because she has refused to show her face. As was mentioned previously, Adama has done absolutely nothing to endear himself to the civilians or the government, treating them all with thinly-veiled contempt at every public opportunity. We, as the viewers, know that Adama probably has the fleet's best interests at heart, but he has never once even attempted to demonstrate that to those he is supposed to protect. Were I a civilian in the fleet, or a member of the Quorum (without the audience viewpoint), I think I'd have to be 100% in agreement with Zarek.

Zarek himself is a slimeball, but I think he truly believes that the fleet should be "free" to choose its own leaders and its own fate. Of course, he is certainly trying to position himself to be the one in charge of the fleet, but I think this is because he really believes that he is the best qualified to lead it according to his libertarian/anarchist ideology. Adama made it abundantly clear that he did not recognize Zarek's authority as an elected representative of the people. Adama has shown that he's not above instituting a military coup when he doesn't like the president's decisions, and Zarek already had to back down (when the baseship jumped away with Roslin) and cede the interim presidency to Adama's son because the military dictator wouldn't even speak to him.

I think Zarek's intent with the fuel ship was to goad Adama into using military force to board a civilian ship and really stoke the public uprising so as to force Adama to recognize Zarek and his authority. If Zarek has the entire civilian population behind him, he really forces Adama to play his hand, one way or the other. But that changed once Adama threatened him with that file. Although Zarek is certainly not above corruption and dealings with the less-than-honorable elements of the fleet, I do not think he believed for a second that Adama really had any dirt on him. I think Zarek saw it as Adama fabricating or threatening to fabricate evidence against Zarek and drag him through the mud in order to hold on to power. Adama thinks Zarek backed down because Zarek was really afraid of all the "evidence" of his wrongdoings that Adama believes is out there. After all, Zarek's only a careless thug and criminal, so blackmailing him is a reasonable response, right? While Zarek might have been willing to manipulate events to as to force Adama to work with him, now the plan has changed and Zarek believes that all-out revolution is the only possible choice (hence the "gone to far this time" line or something similar when he was talking to Gaeta in the cell). So Zarek has to concede in order to regroup to plan B.

I think Gaeta is the perfect person with whom to ally. Gaeta himself has been really traumatized by the events of the past few years, particularly the events on New Caprica, the Demetrius, and the webisodes. Any positive illusions about their collective predicament were shattered when Earth turned out to be what it was, so I don't have any problem believing that Gaeta could take this path. Why Gaeta, from Zarek's perspective? He's been a highly-ranking CIC officer for the entire show and probably knows more about the workings of Galactica than anyone else in the fleet, save Tigh, Adama and maybe Tyrol. He was also the de-facto president on New Caprica while Baltar was partying, giving him a civilian perspective that the remainder of the military might not share. Finally, he is able to serve as a constant reminder of the Cylon threat to the military and civilian population, what with the missing leg and all. I also think Gaeta has more respect in the fleet than we're led to believe. He did help with the resistance on New Caprica, a fact that is likely common knowledge at this point. He tried to kill Gaius Baltar with that pen, a fact that probably resonates with many who are still outraged by Baltar's acquittal. He's voicing what they're all feeling now, that Earth was a sham and the Cylons are the enemy, not an ally. Finally, he's a high-ranking officer who was able to order the entire room of pilots and other officers to close the door, and felt the ability to speak freely about what we now know is going to be mutiny.

I think this was well thought out. This episode was a bit slow, but i have no issue with build-up episodes if the payoff is good. Now if the intent was to use this episode to fuel an arc throughout the last season, good. If Adama and Tigh simply fix everything by the end of the next episode, then this was a waste of an episode.

[Wouter]

[quote name='Crow's Eye' post='1661744' date='Jan 25 2009, 16.27']I think Zarek's intent with the fuel ship was to goad Adama into using military force to board a civilian ship and really stoke the public uprising so as to force Adama to recognize Zarek and his authority. If Zarek has the entire civilian population behind him, he really forces Adama to play his hand, one way or the other. But that changed once Adama threatened him with that file. Although Zarek is certainly not above corruption and dealings with the less-than-honorable elements of the fleet, I do not think he believed for a second that Adama really had any dirt on him. I think Zarek saw it as Adama fabricating or threatening to fabricate evidence against Zarek and drag him through the mud in order to hold on to power. Adama thinks Zarek backed down because Zarek was really afraid of all the "evidence" of his wrongdoings that Adama believes is out there. After all, Zarek's only a careless thug and criminal, so blackmailing him is a reasonable response, right? While Zarek might have been willing to manipulate events to as to force Adama to work with him, now the plan has changed and Zarek believes that all-out revolution is the only possible choice (hence the "gone to far this time" line or something similar when he was talking to Gaeta in the cell). So Zarek has to concede in order to regroup to plan B.[/quote]
Zarek was indeed forcing Adama to do something, and even getting arrested may have been part of the plan - it allowed easy access to Gaeta and his conspirators, without anyone getting suspicious about a sudden visit from Gaeta to Colonial one or from Zarek to Galactica.

[quote name='Crow's Eye' post='1661744' date='Jan 25 2009, 16.27']I think Gaeta is the perfect person with whom to ally. Gaeta himself has been really traumatized by the events of the past few years, particularly the events on New Caprica, the Demetrius, and the webisodes. Any positive illusions about their collective predicament were shattered when Earth turned out to be what it was, so I don't have any problem believing that Gaeta could take this path. Why Gaeta, from Zarek's perspective? He's been a highly-ranking CIC officer for the entire show and probably knows more about the workings of Galactica than anyone else in the fleet, save Tigh, Adama and maybe Tyrol. He was also the de-facto president on New Caprica while Baltar was partying, giving him a civilian perspective that the remainder of the military might not share.[/quote]
Gaeta is quite popular among his peers, I think, with his name cleared about New Caprica. He's a very experienced officer who has proven himself many times in the fight against the Cylons, and other than Kara everyone around him seemed to like him.

[quote name='Crow's Eye' post='1661744' date='Jan 25 2009, 16.27']Now if the intent was to use this episode to fuel an arc throughout the last season, good. If Adama and Tigh simply fix everything by the end of the next episode, then this was a waste of an episode.[/quote]
I am expecting this to be over by the end of the next episode, or the one after that...

I've read a great quote by Allessandro Juliani, the actor who plays Gaeta, in a response to Bear Mccreary (who asked him when he knew Gaeta would become a baddie):
[quote]Baddie? Who said anything about being a baddie?

I mean, if resisting an alliance with a race of malevolent, deceitful robot-people responsible for the genocide of humankind, enforced by a bunch of 'leaders' who time and time again had proven to be completely misguided and hypocritical in their policies is bad…who wants to be good?[/quote]
[url="http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1122"]http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1122[/url]

I like it when an actor stands by his character (especially when he has good reason to), and I believe Richard Hatch has made similar comments regarding Zarek, which he doesn't see as a "bad guy" either. It is also true that there has been little or no justice in the fleet, regarding Gaeta's leg for example.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1661715' date='Jan 25 2009, 09.24']Tracker,

You sound a great deal like the supporters of Israel who you savage in GC. If any sort of peace is to exist it demands a leap of faith. It's a risk, but it's a risk I don't think they can afford to pass up. Previously they had some sort of destination in mind. Now it's a blind search without even a concrete planet to hope for there is no way to know where such a home will be found or when and tripling jump distances and improving defenses is a necessity dispite past sucesses without such aid.[/quote]

Uh...I don't really recall saying very much about Israel on this board.

As to the Cylons and peace, a leap of faith is fine, but not if it takes you off the cliff of reality. The Cylons, rebel or no, show absolutely no ability to connect with their own mistakes in regards to dealing with humans. None. They mouthed half-regrets over the attack on the Colonies, and followed that up with an aborted attempt to enslave those same Colonists on New Caprica. They've committed genocide, torture, horrific medical experiments, and still consider themselves morally superior to humans. It's almost sociopathic. Those aren't the kind of allies one usually seeks, wouldn't you say?

I'm not ruling out an alliance with the rebel Cylons...much would depend upon the terms and conditions. However, were I in the fleet, I'd approach any negotiations with a metric ton of reservations and concerns.

[tzanth]

[quote name='Ran' post='1660881' date='Jan 24 2009, 08.56']It wasn't clear to me whether Zarek really is corrupt, using the office of the Vice-President to enrich himself (doubtless, in his mind, to have all the resources he can have to "fight teh cause"), or whether they both know it's untrue, but Adama seemed to have made up evidence to the contrary.[/quote]

You might also consider that Zarek has more to gain from Adama forcibly returning the rogue ship than he does from depriving the entire fleet of fuel. Plus, presumably telling Adama will get him out of jail. In the end, I think it was in his interests to give up the location, whether or not Adams "dirt" was real.

Personally I liked this episode more than the previous one, but ive always preferred the 'political' episodes.