Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn

[Guy Kilmore]

This series is one of my favorites. There are so many images and events that stand out, just the general anguish that characterizes much of the book is so well portrayed. Williams probably has the best portrayal of an immortal race I have ever read about. Then there are just some really dramatic scenes, offhand the ones that stick with me is the battle on the lake of ice in front of the Stone of Farewell. I also remember Father Dinivians (sp?) confrontation with Pyrates (sp?). This thread has inspired me to dig the books out of storage and a reread.

[H von T]

I know I read it, but I can't remember a damn thing about it. I'm pretty sure it's still sitting on my bookshelf. It's obviously (for me) one of the throw away fantasy series that are way too common.

[Argonath Diver]

I definitely think it's one of the slowest-moving series I've ever read. I don't have much of a problem with that.

For instance, I never once enjoyed a single page of Maegwin's character. So, even the first read through, I skimmed the hell out of every page she was on. Her and Eolair's lame moments? Pass! On the other hand, I read and enjoyed almost every line describing the lost Sithi kingdom. For some reason, I enjoyed the shit out of Rachel's chapters, simply because I knew from the beginning she'd live to see Simon come back. As much as Simon and Miri's pretty standard poorboy-and-princess interaction was well-trodden, I really liked Cadrach. Page after page you expect the guy to stop being such a whiny bitch, and he just never, ever does. In that specific case, to me, he defied standard epic fantasy convention in that Williams just beat to living death the fact that the guy was a massive pussy. I expect him to become heroic about halfway into the second book.

Newer books like The Steel Remains and all of Abercrombie's stuff get rave reviews here because they are gritty and everyone's an asshole, and to hell with descriptive world building, etc, etc. But, damnit, sometimes I want to read about a clever hobbit (troll) and a brave young hero killin' a dragon, and then two pages describing a beautiful ruined elf city. MSnT never tried to break new ground. To me, it's just one of the best-written high fantasy worlds I've come across.

[Maltaran]

I expect him to become heroic about halfway into the second book.

To be fair to Cadrach, he does get a heroic moment right at the end when they're escaping from the collapse of Green Angel Tower. His problem was that he and Pryrates were the only two people who had actually read the whole of Du Svardenvyrd, and while Pryrates used it to become more powerful, Cadrach became convinced that the world was doomed and there was nothing he could do to stop it, so why bother trying? Once Ineluki was defeated, he got his courage back.

[Argonath Diver]

To be fair to Cadrach, he does get a heroic moment right at the end when they're escaping from the collapse of Green Angel Tower. His problem was that he and Pryrates were the only two people who had actually read the whole of Du Svardenvyrd, and while Pryrates used it to become more powerful, Cadrach became convinced that the world was doomed and there was nothing he could do to stop it, so why bother trying? Once Ineluki was defeated, he got his courage back.

I understand his motivation - I believe I was unclear in that sentence. I meant that, according to high fantasy tropes, I kept thinking at any minute that he'd have his heroic emergence from being such a whiny coward. By the middle of the second book, I was sure it'd come any minute. He had chance after chance to step up. Certianly he has some moments in the final action, and at the ghant nest. I was only referring to the expectation that he'd turn into a wise mentor early on - an expectation that really doesn't ever happen. And once it's all said and done, I'm glad that Williams kept a very tragic character from suddenly casting his truly awful inner demons away, deus ex machina and all.

[PetrusOctavianus]

Am I the only one who has noticed that parts of Dragonbone Chair is directly plagiarized from Feist's Magician and Tolkien's Lord of the Rings?

The beginning of DC and Magician is identical: Poor orphan boy lives in a small castle with a benevolent ruler with two sons and one daughter. Nobody will give poor orphan boy a chance except the kind old wizard who makes him his apprentice.

At one point the party must visit the rulers of the "trolls" (I can't remember what they were called, but they were small and hated the Ironmen). Since the "trolls" hate the Ironmen (I think they were called) the Ironman must be blindfolded.

Complete rippoff of the Lothlorien chapter in LOTR when Gimli the dwarf must be blindfolded.

Been a long time since I tried to read it, so I may misremember some of the details.

It was not badly *written* though, but I couldn't stomach the shameless rippoffs.

And the tired, old cliche of the orphan boy who is really a King or Saviour was really getting old...

[Frank Stark]

I'm not sure the "poor-orphan-boy-who-lives-in-a-castle" is exclusive to Feist either. Isn't that a pretty common fantasy archetype? I'm sure at least "poor-orphan-boy-taken-in-by-wizard" is widespread at least, but I guess sometimes they live in a village instead.

And with so many other similarities to LotR, I'm surprised you're picking up on the blindfolding-your-enemy. Very similar scenes, I agree, but again, I'm not sure it's exclusive to either series. Isn't this something that is commonplace in mainstream movies and stories?

[Gabriele]

I'm not sure the "poor-orphan-boy-who-lives-in-a-castle" is exclusive to Feist either. Isn't that a pretty common fantasy archetype? I'm sure at least "poor-orphan-boy-taken-in-by-wizard" is widespread at least, but I guess sometimes they live in a village instead.

It is a very common trope. We have the farmboy (Rand, Garion), the kitchen scuillion (Simon), the town rat (Kvothe, the female MC in Vacant Throne which I haven't read yet, but she becomes first a master assassin and then quenn, according to the reviews), the orphan living with nasty relatives and who attends a special school and will be the one dealing with the Big Evil Guy (Harry Potter) ....

LOTR is a bad example actually, since Frodo is not a simple farmboy or poor orphan but a hobbit of a good family, educated, wealthy, respected, and he keeps a servant - all through his adventures.

[Maltaran]

The beginning of DC and Magician is identical: Poor orphan boy lives in a small castle with a benevolent ruler with two sons and one daughter.

Except Prester John doesn't have any daughters - Miriamele is his granddaughter, and she doesn't come to the Hayholt until after John is dead and Elias is king.

[Maia]

Well, I always loved MS@T. The Sithi are my favorite "elves" - yes, even over Tolkien's, because his tended to swing wildly between being too human and just like the personages of the Nordic sagas or too passive and unknowable.

And of course, the wonderful twist of the Bad Guys having justification in their hatred and also coming up with a very clever plan which the protagonists have swallowed hook and sinker was very refreshing. If only Williams continued the twist to the end and came up with an original culmination rather than the traditional one. IMHO, letting the enemies win could have been a much superior choice in this case and due to the nature of their plan may even have allowed the protagonists to survive.

Oh, and less tunnels and much less travails of Miri would have improved things a lot too. I liked Maegwin, personally, BTW.

As to wizard educating an orphan - look at the Matter of Britain and a miriad of borrowings from it. I see little resemblance to Feist - Simon had no particular talents and Morgenes was definitely not a fraud. Oh, and "benevolent king"? LOL.

[PetrusOctavianus]

As to wizard educating an orphan - look at the Matter of Britain and a miriad of borrowings from it. I see little resemblance to Feist - Simon had no particular talents and Morgenes was definitely not a fraud. Oh, and "benevolent king"? LOL.

Well, it's been a long time since I read both Magician and DC, so I may has misremembered some of the details.

But I do remember that I read DC right after Magician and I vividly remember the WTF! moments when the opening chapter of DC was nearly identical to that of Magician.

So my first impression of Tad Williams was very poor indeed.

[OctopusArms]

Well, it's been a long time since I read both Magician and DC, so I may has misremembered some of the details.

But I do remember that I read DC right after Magician and I vividly remember the WTF! moments when the opening chapter of DC was nearly identical to that of Magician.

So my first impression of Tad Williams was very poor indeed.

It's funny, I had the exact opposite reaction from you. I struggled through Magician over the past few months and then just started MS&T for the first time. I'm loving it so far. Sure, it has similarities to other things I've read and all that, but I'm really enjoying Williams' writing.

[Gabriele]

Except Prester John doesn't have any daughters - Miriamele is his granddaughter, and she doesn't come to the Hayholt until after John is dead and Elias is king.

Plus Liam and Arutha get along, something you can't say about Elias and Josua. :P

[Gabriele]

I'm loving it so far. Sure, it has similarities to other things I've read and all that, but I'm really enjoying Williams' writing.

Williams is a much better writer than Feist, imho.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

I stopped reading MS&T for a little bit. But, rest assured, I started again. I finished Stone of Farewell last night and am very eager to get the next book.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

I'm on to "TGAT", and loving it. I'm trying to figure out the Storm King's plan, but so far I've got nothing.

[Werthead]

I'm on to "TGAT", and loving it. I'm trying to figure out the Storm King's plan, but so far I've got nothing.

DO NOT VISIT ANY TAD WILLIAMS FANSITES.

The Storm King's plan is pretty cool (in an evil kind of way) and at the time it was written (1993) unprecedented. Don't let it get spoiled.

You may also consider not reading the very last chapter of the entire trilogy, which is the biggest hypocritical cop-out in fantasy history prior to Philip Pullman ending His Dark Materials in exactly the same way his ideological nemesis CS Lewis ended Narnia.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

DO NOT VISIT ANY TAD WILLIAMS FANSITES.

The Storm King's plan is pretty cool (in an evil kind of way) and at the time it was written (1993) unprecedented. Don't let it get spoiled.

You may also consider not reading the very last chapter of the entire trilogy, which is the biggest hypocritical cop-out in fantasy history prior to Philip Pullman ending His Dark Materials in exactly the same way his ideological nemesis CS Lewis ended Narnia.

Thanks for the advice! But I'll have to read it...I don't think I could resist not reading it. I've already heard that Simon is some sort of heir (although how that works...I'll find out later), but I think I'll be able to look past that. As long as the cliche is done well, I think I'll be alright.

[Martin Silenus]

To Green Angel Tower is where I stopped reading. I got 60 pages into it when I just set it aside. Like his Otherland, which I actually enjoyed, it keeps you moving along, though it's too long, and ultimately alright, just not great. Tad Williams can write characters IIRC. I just stopped feeling it (MS&T), is what I'm saying.

Though this talk of a hypocritical cop out ending has re-piqued my interest.

[lokisnow]

to be fair doesn't the prologue of Dragonbone Chair set up that final chapter of TGAT? agree it's a cop out though. I was righteously pissed off by that.