SG: U Spoilers

[elmis]

There is also the fact that the Stargate project is a military run and funded operation.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Emlis,

Systematic murderer? Come on, you're having a laugh. He's tried to kill one guy, unsuccessfully I might add, and given how he acted after that I expect he wouldn't have done the same thing had he not been put in a situation where they BOTH would have been stuck if he tried to drag Rush with him.

The asian woman adds nothing but strife, if I was Young I would have her locked up for the rest of the trip.

If for no other reason than Young is unstable I think he should be relieved. Young's fine when he's calm but when he gets pissed he beats the shit out of people and strands them on other planets with no way home. That's not someone who needs to be in charge of an expedition that is always at risk. The scientists jumped the gun with the mutiny though. They should have gone on strike first. Refused repairs and other work until Young steps down or there is some power sharing arraignment put in place.

[oneeye]

Remember though Rush talked the one scientist into sitting in the chair. The other scientist chose to do so but still it was high risk, indirect murder on Rush's part, Rush certainly did not volunteer his own hide :)

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Remember though Rush talked the one scientist into sitting in the chair. The other scientist chose to do so but still it was high risk, indirect murder on Rush's part, Rush certainly did not volunteer his own hide :)

Not buying it. It was still that scientist's own choice, pressure or no pressure.

[LCOTNW]

Not buying it. It was still that scientist's own choice, pressure or no pressure.

Surely you see that Rush has some culpability for that. This was more than just "pressure". He specifically manipulated that particular scientist to sit in the chair because he knew he could create a situation with a high likelihood that the scientist would choose to do so. You can absolve him of fault if you want to since we all technically have a choice to control our actions, but that seems extraordinarily generous in this situation. Rush takes advantage of his shipmates weaknesses and vulnerabilities without regard for their well-being. Everything he does is calculated. That includes manipulating Wray. Do you think Rush would have stopped the transfer to save Young if Wray and Chloe hadn't been screaming at him? No, he would have considered them necessary losses and he knew that if Young and Scott died that Wray and Chloe would not support him, not to mention that the military personnel would go batshit ballistic after the apparent assassination of their leaders. In fact, I would love to see the alternative version where Young is killed and Greer hunts Rush down.

Also, I really don't think Young is that unstable. I just think he has his hands far too full dealing with Rush (who is much smarter than him and is fighting him every step of the way for his own hidden agendas), and Wray who is apparently easily manipulated and is as cowardly as Rush. It's too bad. I would like to see Wray learn from her mistakes since she seems to at least have the conscience that Rush lacks, but if she chooses the cowardly way again, I am going to have to hate her. Young is too used to dealing with people who follow orders and are trained to put aside their own agendas, but I think he's not doing so bad of a job. I definitely would have beat the sh*t out of Rush after the chair incident as well, so I think Young was a model of restraint.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LCONTW,

Surely you see that Rush has some culpability for that. This was more than just "pressure". He specifically manipulated that particular scientist to sit in the chair because he knew he could create a situation with a high likelihood that the scientist would choose to do so. You can absolve him of fault if you want to since we all technically have a choice to control our actions, but that seems extraordinarily generous in this situation. Rush takes advantage of his shipmates weaknesses and vulnerabilities without regard for their well-being. Everything he does is calculated. That includes manipulating Wray. Do you think Rush would have stopped the transfer to save Young if Wray and Chloe hadn't been screaming at him? No, he would have considered them necessary losses and he knew that if Young and Scott died that Wray and Chloe would not support him, not to mention that the military personnel would go batshit ballistic after the apparent assassination of their leaders. In fact, I would love to see the alternative version where Young is killed and Greer hunts Rush down.

Also, I really don't think Young is that unstable. I just think he has his hands far too full dealing with Rush (who is much smarter than him and is fighting him every step of the way for his own hidden agendas), and Wray who is apparently easily manipulated and is as cowardly as Rush. It's too bad. I would like to see Wray learn from her mistakes since she seems to at least have the conscience that Rush lacks, but if she chooses the cowardly way again, I am going to have to hate her. Young is too used to dealing with people who follow orders and are trained to put aside their own agendas, but I think he's not doing so bad of a job. I definitely would have beat the sh*t out of Rush after the chair incident as well, so I think Young was a model of restraint.

Yes, Rush is a Machiavellian manipulator. But that's all he does at the end of the day, manipulate. His agenda is to learn how to operate the ship and somehow get people home. He has not beaten anyone and certianly not attempted to strand anyone on an alien planet. Over on the Gateworld forums some are attempting to argue Young was justified in marooning Rush. A question they haven't answered is if that is so why did Young lie about what he did and plan to lie to his superiors back on Earth.

There needs to be some power sharing with the civilians. If Young is overwhelmed and that's adding to his stress and lack of self-control that argues he needs to give up some authority and limit his area of absolute control for his own sanity's sake.

[elmis]

LCONTW,

Yes, Rush is a Machiavellian manipulator. But that's all he does at the end of the day, manipulate. His agenda is to learn how to operate the ship and somehow get people home.

This can certainly be questioned. I believe Rush's motivation is to learn as much as he can from the Ancients, not with the safety of the crew as a primary goal, but rather to gather the information for himself and whatever his end game is (some have speculated that it is to reach Ascension, because he believes that is the key to be with his dead wife again).

He has not beaten anyone and certianly not attempted to strand anyone on an alien planet.

He is known to hoard information he learns, and to use this to further his own agenda - or at least what he feels would be the right course of action. Remember the sparkly lights he caused when the Earth scientists tried to dial up Earth? Given the setting they are in is that more or less abhorable than doing physical violence? I'm not sure.

Over on the Gateworld forums some are attempting to argue Young was justified in marooning Rush. A question they haven't answered is if that is so why did Young lie about what he did and plan to lie to his superiors back on Earth.

Young clearly did something wrong by knocking him out, or allowing the situation to escalate to a fight on an alien world with just minutes left before they made a jump. There is no question about that, but one lapse in judgement does not make him a bad leader for this group. Specially given the history these characters have. Remember, Rush basically put them in the position they are in, because of his thirst for Ancient tech - they could have dialed Earth during the initial attack, but Rush was the guy who forced the dialing of the nine chevron adress.

There needs to be some power sharing with the civilians. If Young is overwhelmed and that's adding to his stress and lack of self-control that argues he needs to give up some authority and limit his area of absolute control for his own sanity's sake.

There is power sharing between the civilians and the military. Each of the scientists work on stuff they know and there isn't a gunwielding redneck soldier on their backs correcting them. The cases we have seen when Young takes control are in situations that have a potential devestating outcome for the crew, or the crews safety. They are working together, with one of the field commanders at the Icarus base as their supervisor.

Rush doesn't like that, because he apparently feels working with the restraints of not doing anything that might have a harmful effect on the crew hampers the advancement of his own agenda.

Why Wray doesn't like it is more unclear, I would say her goals (and character as a whole) is less established thus far in the series.

[Jaxom 1974]

I like the new aliens, they are kind of half district 9, half Kamino.

I also think having the humans in tanks was a nod to Star Wars.

I think the aliens were trying to do some mind control thing to the captives, but Rush was too strong. Chloe on the other hand was acting weird when they got back......

I wasn't expecting Rush to be back so quick, but I do suppose he is the main in the credits. He is good though ( at being bad).

I have some issues with the new aliens, in so much that they appear to be the main alien threat at this point. The fact that they're CGI is going to be a significant problem. CGI costs money and when there's costs, we won't see them as much. The fact that there's virtually no way to communicate with them also bothers me because it makes for less tension to not really know what their thoughts are. Their intentions.

This is something that's going to eventually get changed to a more "human" antagonist in terms of aliens anyway...why not give us them up front and try to make them that much more unique?

Yes, Rush is a Machiavellian manipulator. But that's all he does at the end of the day, manipulate. His agenda is to learn how to operate the ship and somehow get people home. He has not beaten anyone and certianly not attempted to strand anyone on an alien planet. Over on the Gateworld forums some are attempting to argue Young was justified in marooning Rush. A question they haven't answered is if that is so why did Young lie about what he did and plan to lie to his superiors back on Earth.

I think it's already been said, but Rush has motives that belong to Rush. They do not include getting the others back to Earth. I also note that he did not deny keeping a stone for himself, nor did Young try to get it back yet...

I find it interesting that SG:U is going where Voyager wanted to go with Starfleet vs. the Maquis in it's early inception, but at what point do the creators realize that there's no way to sustain the show with this civilian vs. military schism. Oh it makes for good drama in a lot of ways...consider the Pegasus on BSG...but for what is essentially a pool of less than 50 people, it's already drawing thin on SG:U...

[beniowa]

Finally caught up on the two new episodes. I liked the new aliens. They look sufficiently alien and might be interesting enough to take the show in some new directions.

I think Young IS a little unstable. Part of it is that I don't think he's used to having people challenge his authority quite so brazenly like Rush and Wray have been doing. Also, I can't help but wonder if he took some brain damage from the explosion that blasted him through the Stargate in the pilot. His initial inability to walk plus his lack of control in high-stress situations seems to point to that.

And yeah, like others have said, Rush is a manipulative bastard. I do think he cares about the crew, but he'll sacrifice them all if necessary to achieve his goals. Who was it that wanted to put Chloe out of an airlock? I'm certainly leaning toward that now. She just seemed really whiny about why she was helping the plotters. And I don't know what the hell Wray's problem is.

Frankly, I'm starting to get a little annoyed at the infighting. Every time they start bickering, I want to spank them like little children and put them in the corner for timeout. Like Jaxom said, there's only so long that can work. It looked earlier that the civilians were getting back into a routine similar like they did on the Icarus base and probably wouldn't have done anything if Wray hadn't been stirring people up.

[Datepalm]

Young clearly did something wrong by knocking him out, or allowing the situation to escalate to a fight on an alien world with just minutes left before they made a jump. There is no question about that, but one lapse in judgement does not make him a bad leader for this group.

You don't think Youngs very sudden change of tactics - from letting the alien ship get away intact when he found out Chloe was on it, to doing his best to blast it apart the moment he learned Rush was as well - was a deliberate attempt to kill Rush all over again? (and Chloe too, without a second thought.)

OTOH, i'm not defending Rush. In particular, I think he would have gone through with letting Young and Scott die in the mutiny without Wray. Anfd wasn't there room to speculate way back that hes basically responsible for stranding them there in first place?

[elmis]

You don't think Youngs very sudden change of tactics - from letting the alien ship get away intact when he found out Chloe was on it, to doing his best to blast it apart the moment he learned Rush was as well - was a deliberate attempt to kill Rush all over again? (and Chloe too, without a second thought.)

I don't think it is that back and white, the situations involved were also quite different (not to mention that Young rescued Rush - where as he could have clubbed him to death the few seconds he was unconcious after being let out of the tank).

In scenario one the aliens had what they had come for, another person to test and get information from. They were moving away from Destiny and had stopped firing on the ship. The guys wanted to shoot at the ship as it was making it's escape, but Young knew (or at least suspected) that he could have a way onto the ship using the stones - and that way rescue Chloe.

In scenario two Young has used that chance, but was pulled back as the aliens had returned and opened fire on Destiny again. The ship, already in bad shape couldn't take much more, (they were already in pretty bad shape after the first attack) and Young then makes the executive decision to try and save the people on Destiny and destroy the alien ship (Chloe and Rush be damned).

When I saw the episode I didn't get any feeling of him trying to cover his tracks with regards to the fight he and Rush had on the other planet, but rather reacting to the situation that they were in. I am certain he would have ordered fire on the alien ship in scenario one as well, if they had not disengaged and moved away.

[DivisionByZero]

The lack of a clear black and white situation certainly makes in interesting. On the one hand, Young did beat Rush and leave him to die, and yeah, I did kind of feel that his decision to fire on the alien ship after he learned Rush was aboard it was at least influenced by wanting to be sure Rush never made it back. But despite that, the military "side" (which includes Eli) still seems to be given the more favorable presentation overall and I can't help but see them as the "good" guys. Rush and Wray and some of the other more outspoken civilians definitely feel more like "bad" guys trying to pursue personal agendas and interfere with the "good" guys trying to do their jobs.

[Datepalm]

The lack of a clear black and white situation certainly makes in interesting. On the one hand, Young did beat Rush and leave him to die, and yeah, I did kind of feel that his decision to fire on the alien ship after he learned Rush was aboard it was at least influenced by wanting to be sure Rush never made it back. But despite that, the military "side" (which includes Eli) still seems to be given the more favorable presentation overall and I can't help but see them as the "good" guys. Rush and Wray and some of the other more outspoken civilians definitely feel more like "bad" guys trying to pursue personal agendas and interfere with the "good" guys trying to do their jobs.

I think its mainly because theres good, sympathetic characters on the military side - TJ, Greer, James, Eli, Scott - and only Chloe correspondingly on the civilian side (none of the scientists have much of a personality as yet) and shes so meh shes more of a liability.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Datepalm,

I think its mainly because theres good, sympathetic characters on the military side - TJ, Greer, James, Eli, Scott - and only Chloe correspondingly on the civilian side (none of the scientists have much of a personality as yet) and shes so meh shes more of a liability.

I think the split is a pretty grey one. The big issue is Young's position of command. Should he remain top dog all by himself when he clearly has impulse control and anger issues. All that said I think the mutiny was premature. They should have simply (you'll love this) tried a Science team work stoppage to assert their power and control. Young can't go shooting them to get them back to work or he looses the people with the skills he needs to keep the ship running. I think it would have been a win for team Wray/Rush.

[Datepalm]

Datepalm,

I think the split is a pretty grey one. The big issue is Young's position of command. Should he remain top dog all by himself when he clearly has impulse control and anger issues. All that said I think the mutiny was premature. They should have simply (you'll love this) tried a Science team work stoppage to assert their power and control. Young can't go shooting them to get them back to work or he looses the people with the skills he needs to keep the ship running. I think it would have been a win for team Wray/Rush.

lol, indeed. That would have been the sensible thing to go, including recruting sensible military side people like TJ and Eli and all of them demanding that everyone calm down and quit the ego tripping. But definitely Rushs, probably Wrays and possibly Youngs agendas are all not exactly served by calmness, cooperation and common sense. I do think the military side is more sympathetic to the viewer though by virtue of having better, more developed characters though, more than by any inherent justice to their cause.

[Arthmail]

There is also the fact that the Stargate project is a military run and funded operation.

Uhm....you do realize where the military gets its budget, right? Wray was right, western nations have armies controlled by civilians, not the other way around.

Surely you see that Rush has some culpability for that. This was more than just "pressure". He specifically manipulated that particular scientist to sit in the chair because he knew he could create a situation with a high likelihood that the scientist would choose to do so. You can absolve him of fault if you want to since we all technically have a choice to control our actions, but that seems extraordinarily generous in this situation. Rush takes advantage of his shipmates weaknesses and vulnerabilities without regard for their well-being. Everything he does is calculated. That includes manipulating Wray. Do you think Rush would have stopped the transfer to save Young if Wray and Chloe hadn't been screaming at him? No, he would have considered them necessary losses and he knew that if Young and Scott died that Wray and Chloe would not support him, not to mention that the military personnel would go batshit ballistic after the apparent assassination of their leaders. In fact, I would love to see the alternative version where Young is killed and Greer hunts Rush down.

Also, I really don't think Young is that unstable. I just think he has his hands far too full dealing with Rush (who is much smarter than him and is fighting him every step of the way for his own hidden agendas), and Wray who is apparently easily manipulated and is as cowardly as Rush. It's too bad. I would like to see Wray learn from her mistakes since she seems to at least have the conscience that Rush lacks, but if she chooses the cowardly way again, I am going to have to hate her. Young is too used to dealing with people who follow orders and are trained to put aside their own agendas, but I think he's not doing so bad of a job. I definitely would have beat the sh*t out of Rush after the chair incident as well, so I think Young was a model of restraint.

Rush, at no point, has specifically gone out of his way to kill anyone. He might manipulate them, and perhaps dislike all of them, but he has not left any of them behind. As for him not getting Chloe and Wray's support if he left Young and Scott to die, he could have agreed and then just hit the wrong button, looked frustrated that something had gone wrong, and then let them die. They might not have believed him, but that doesn't matter, does it? Because Rush knows the ship, and everyone else is along for the ride.

And Young is highly unstable. Namely, in that he left the only guy capable of operating the ship on a planet to die. Sure, Eli has some genius moments, but he ultimately knows very litte. By leaving Rush he put everyone on board at risk, and if they hadn't found him again, in this last episode he would have chosen to counter attack and everyone aboard would have been dead. He is completely unfit for command, and has at no point been a model of restraint.

Young clearly did something wrong by knocking him out, or allowing the situation to escalate to a fight on an alien world with just minutes left before they made a jump. There is no question about that, but one lapse in judgement does not make him a bad leader for this group. Specially given the history these characters have. Remember, Rush basically put them in the position they are in, because of his thirst for Ancient tech - they could have dialed Earth during the initial attack, but Rush was the guy who forced the dialing of the nine chevron adress.

There is power sharing between the civilians and the military. Each of the scientists work on stuff they know and there isn't a gunwielding redneck soldier on their backs correcting them. The cases we have seen when Young takes control are in situations that have a potential devestating outcome for the crew, or the crews safety. They are working together, with one of the field commanders at the Icarus base as their supervisor.

Rush doesn't like that, because he apparently feels working with the restraints of not doing anything that might have a harmful effect on the crew hampers the advancement of his own agenda.

Why Wray doesn't like it is more unclear, I would say her goals (and character as a whole) is less established thus far in the series.

Again, one lapse in judgement would have seen them all dead. Eli does not know the ship even a fraction compared to Rush. Eventually something would have gone wrong, especially in this last episode, and everyone would have died.

And this entire notion that Rush is willing to kill anyone on the crew to achieve his own agenda is bullshit. He could have left Chloe, he had no reason to save her, in fact, as she has clearly never liked him since the death of her father. But he did save her. He is not a good man, but he's not as unstable as Young, and for the most part, i think that the decisions he makes in regards to ship are half conjecture and half hope, hidden by a false bravada. For the most part, i think he thinks hes making the right decisions.

More in a bit.

[LCOTNW]

Uhm....you do realize where the military gets its budget, right? Wray was right, western nations have armies controlled by civilians, not the other way around.

totally irrelevant. Destiny is not a "nation" by any stretch of the imagination. It is not a colony, or anything remotely resembling it. If Col. Telford was in command instead of Young none of this would be in question.

Rush, at no point, has specifically gone out of his way to kill anyone. He might manipulate them, and perhaps dislike all of them, but he has not left any of them behind. As for him not getting Chloe and Wray's support if he left Young and Scott to die, he could have agreed and then just hit the wrong button, looked frustrated that something had gone wrong, and then let them die. They might not have believed him, but that doesn't matter, does it? Because Rush knows the ship, and everyone else is along for the ride.

Rush has specifically created situations putting his shipmates in mortal danger primarily for the benefit of his personal agenda and has shown little remorse for the carnage that followed. It may be true that Rush has more knowledge of Ancient technology, and maybe better instincts about Destiny than anyone else. I also agree that it was wrong of Young to leave Rush behind on that planet, but I can still empathize with what he did. Rush did earn a serious smackdown over the chair incident though.

Rush could not have just pushed the wrong button in the mutiny situation, though. That is ridiculous. Greer would have found out that Rush devised and executed the plan to mutiny while Rush and Scott were on the shuttle, and he would have presumed Rush was lying about not knowing they would be trapped and killed. It doesn't matter what Rush actually intended or whether he had any way of knowing it would happen in advance. Rush has proven himself to be repeatedly untrustworthy and the fact that people think Rush knows what he is doing, or at least more than he is letting on, would just reinforce the fact that two people who were an incredible inconvenience to Rush and Wray's mutiny were conveniently killed which would create a serious leadership vaccum. It also conveniently ignores the fact that Rush is no more interested in democracy than Young. Rush just wants to be the one in command. Do you think Rush would be stopping to get everyone's opinion when making decisions? At best Rush would simply pose the question, "Do you want to die? Or do you want to let me do my plan?" every time and it would be just as undemocratic as with Young.

And Young is highly unstable. Namely, in that he left the only guy capable of operating the ship on a planet to die. Sure, Eli has some genius moments, but he ultimately knows very litte. By leaving Rush he put everyone on board at risk, and if they hadn't found him again, in this last episode he would have chosen to counter attack and everyone aboard would have been dead. He is completely unfit for command, and has at no point been a model of restraint.

Way overstating Rush's ability. One of the drawbacks of the show is that everyone seems terribly comfortable operating Destiny's systems. Nevertheless, if Eli was motivated to grow up and take some responsibility instead of using the Kinos to spy on the girls in the shower, then I'm sure Eli could make great strides in catching up to Rush's level of understanding of Destiny. I think the last episode proved Eli's value, otherwise why would they have traded for him? From a basic survival standpoint, they need all the help they can get, so it is true that Young made a mistake in trying to cut Rush loose. Nevertheless, Rush should not be excused for his behavior either. Something had to be done. He is not unfit for command. He's doing alright under the circumstances. Things would be much worse under Wray, or Rush. If these are the choices, I would choose Young.

Again, one lapse in judgement would have seen them all dead. Eli does not know the ship even a fraction compared to Rush. Eventually something would have gone wrong, especially in this last episode, and everyone would have died.

Then why did they demand that Eli come over to their side? He should pose no threat to Rush's superior intellect. No one is arguing that Rush provides no value. Of course he is more valuable than Eli when it comes to technical knowledge and capability in working with Destiny. Rush has made mistakes in judgment as well such as the chair incident, the shuttle incident, framing Young, etc. Rush has hardly proven to be a better decision-maker.

And this entire notion that Rush is willing to kill anyone on the crew to achieve his own agenda is bullshit. He could have left Chloe, he had no reason to save her, in fact, as she has clearly never liked him since the death of her father. But he did save her. He is not a good man, but he's not as unstable as Young, and for the most part, i think that the decisions he makes in regards to ship are half conjecture and half hope, hidden by a false bravada. For the most part, i think he thinks hes making the right decisions.

More in a bit.

Rush absolutely appears to be willing to sacrifice shipmates to promote his own agenda. It is not bullshit. He was actually considering allowing Young and Scott to die just to preserve control of the mutiny. That is some cold shit right there. Your argument about Rush saving Chloe could just as well have been made about Young saving Rush five minutes earlier on that ship. They would both be dead if Young hadn't gone over there in the first place. It's too bad that Rush can't put aside his own ego and arrogance and simply work with Young, but then the show would be boring. Whatever you can say against Young, he is not making his decisions out of arrogant presumption.

[elmis]

LCOTNW, if I didn't know any better I'd think you were my sock puppet account (or more likely, vice versa). :)

I couldn't have said it any better.

[Arthmail]

totally irrelevant. Destiny is not a "nation" by any stretch of the imagination. It is not a colony, or anything remotely resembling it. If Col. Telford was in command instead of Young none of this would be in question.

Rush has specifically created situations putting his shipmates in mortal danger primarily for the benefit of his personal agenda and has shown little remorse for the carnage that followed. It may be true that Rush has more knowledge of Ancient technology, and maybe better instincts about Destiny than anyone else. I also agree that it was wrong of Young to leave Rush behind on that planet, but I can still empathize with what he did. Rush did earn a serious smackdown over the chair incident though.

Rush could not have just pushed the wrong button in the mutiny situation, though. That is ridiculous. Greer would have found out that Rush devised and executed the plan to mutiny while Rush and Scott were on the shuttle, and he would have presumed Rush was lying about not knowing they would be trapped and killed. It doesn't matter what Rush actually intended or whether he had any way of knowing it would happen in advance. Rush has proven himself to be repeatedly untrustworthy and the fact that people think Rush knows what he is doing, or at least more than he is letting on, would just reinforce the fact that two people who were an incredible inconvenience to Rush and Wray's mutiny were conveniently killed which would create a serious leadership vaccum. It also conveniently ignores the fact that Rush is no more interested in democracy than Young. Rush just wants to be the one in command. Do you think Rush would be stopping to get everyone's opinion when making decisions? At best Rush would simply pose the question, "Do you want to die? Or do you want to let me do my plan?" every time and it would be just as undemocratic as with Young.

Way overstating Rush's ability. One of the drawbacks of the show is that everyone seems terribly comfortable operating Destiny's systems. Nevertheless, if Eli was motivated to grow up and take some responsibility instead of using the Kinos to spy on the girls in the shower, then I'm sure Eli could make great strides in catching up to Rush's level of understanding of Destiny. I think the last episode proved Eli's value, otherwise why would they have traded for him? From a basic survival standpoint, they need all the help they can get, so it is true that Young made a mistake in trying to cut Rush loose. Nevertheless, Rush should not be excused for his behavior either. Something had to be done. He is not unfit for command. He's doing alright under the circumstances. Things would be much worse under Wray, or Rush. If these are the choices, I would choose Young.

Then why did they demand that Eli come over to their side? He should pose no threat to Rush's superior intellect. No one is arguing that Rush provides no value. Of course he is more valuable than Eli when it comes to technical knowledge and capability in working with Destiny. Rush has made mistakes in judgment as well such as the chair incident, the shuttle incident, framing Young, etc. Rush has hardly proven to be a better decision-maker.

Rush absolutely appears to be willing to sacrifice shipmates to promote his own agenda. It is not bullshit. He was actually considering allowing Young and Scott to die just to preserve control of the mutiny. That is some cold shit right there. Your argument about Rush saving Chloe could just as well have been made about Young saving Rush five minutes earlier on that ship. They would both be dead if Young hadn't gone over there in the first place. It's too bad that Rush can't put aside his own ego and arrogance and simply work with Young, but then the show would be boring. Whatever you can say against Young, he is not making his decisions out of arrogant presumption.

It is relevant. It doesn't matter that they aren't a nation, i was not claiming that. They are bound by the rules of their own nations, however, no matter how far away they are. And while the Stargate program might be run by the military, its funded by civilians, meaning that they are beholden to them for its continuation. This can clearly be seen in the Senators support of the program, meaning that its not a hush hush military thing, and that there could be serious reprocussions for some of Young's actions. Namely, in that he left the lead scientist to die on an alien world, and then tried to destroy an alien craft with a senators daughter on it, after wanting to rescue her, only because Rush was on board. There would already be massive amounts of fallout going on because of the senators death, which we have not seen, and full level inquiries into the Stargate program. Its a little weak that they have not dealt with this, even a little, but i can understand. Regardless, every senator, as well as the president and his cabinet, with the clearance would be going through the program with a magnifying glass. Especially those that might be looking to shut the program down.

I don't empathize with what Young did. For the chair incident, or the frame. Young is a senior military officer, for now tasked with getting everyone on the ship home. If he wishes to see charges brought up when, and if, they get home, then thats up to him. But to commit murder, and lets not kid ourselves, thats what it was, is a serious breach of military protocol and personal ethics. He tried to kill Rush, end of story.

As for Rush putting everyone else in mortal danger, perhaps he has. I don't think he's fit for command in any way. But neither is Young. Or Wray for that matter. I have seen no one with the ability to command, though perhaps that is what they are grooming Chloe for.

And yes, pushing the wrong button and playing dumb would have worked. Even if Greer were to hunt him down after, which is completely irrelevant to that situation, as Rush relented moments before they jumped back into hyperspace, it would not have mattered. Young and Scott would have been vaporized, and if Greer was willing to shoot the only person that could possibly get them home, then it only goes to show how unstable both Young and some of his soldiers are. Calling what would have been an easy fix for Rush ridiculous makes no sense.

Because they chose to trade for Eli only means that the kid has some skills, which he does. But half the time Young is trying to get him to do things that he simply cannot. Perhaps, in time, he could match Rush's ability. But by the then they could very well be dead. If Rush had not been there when he was, Eli would have agreed with Young to fire back at those alien ships. And they would have died. Eli might be a wunderkind, but he is not near the level that Rush is, not yet, and for the forseeable future they will need him if they hope to survive.

I see what you are saying, but i just disagree that Young is fit for command. He was burnt out in the very first episode even, and only O'Neil seemed to think that he should be involved in the program. Likewise, as i said earlier, neither Wray or Rush is fit to command either.

Its becoming a very interesting show, and these last two episodes have been far better than anything else that the Stargate series has put out. I feel like this is Stargate for adults, and not the slightly campy stuff that we have been seeing before. Sure, i liked Atlantis, and especially Ronan Dex, but this show comes off as far more authentic.

[elmis]

It is relevant. It doesn't matter that they aren't a nation, i was not claiming that. They are bound by the rules of their own nations, however, no matter how far away they are. And while the Stargate program might be run by the military, its funded by civilians, meaning that they are beholden to them for its continuation. This can clearly be seen in the Senators support of the program, meaning that its not a hush hush military thing, and that there could be serious reprocussions for some of Young's actions. Namely, in that he left the lead scientist to die on an alien world, and then tried to destroy an alien craft with a senators daughter on it, after wanting to rescue her, only because Rush was on board.

It is a "hush, hush military thing", but as most such military things they get funding form different Senate Committees, and somewhere in SG:1 the US Government informed the other permanent members of the Security Council of the Stargate and the IOA was formed (that is the International Oversight Advisory). Wray is by accident the senior member of the IOA on Destiny, and is why she is struggling for power. You can read more about the IOA '>here.

The point we're making is that for this specific journey it isn't relevant at all, because they are still under orders from Stargate Command, and Young is the Senior officer at hand. That could change of course, if he were to say he tried to strand a member of the crew on an alien world, and the SGC ordered him to step down, but until that happens he is the designated leader of the crew.

Remember this is all re: your argument of: "Uhm....you do realize where the military gets its budget, right? Wray was right, western nations have armies controlled by civilians, not the other way around."

I've said before, and I'll say again, Young isn't 100% right in everything he does, but he is mostly right. The other options presented, Wray and Rush, seem to be on the wrong side a lot more of the time - that is why I am throwing my lot in with Young.

I don't see any other candidates, you mention Chloe later in your post; westeros.org listen up! I'm betting all my internet credibility (if I have some left) that if that happens, the show has officially jumped the shark and is no longer watchable! ;)

Looking back, I don't think the mutiny ep was very well thought through. Would all the civilians really do that, knowing that the military have the guns, and they are all stuck on the same ship? Must have been a hard sell to get them all on board (I am thinking) unless the animosity against Young and the military is much greater than what has been portrayed so far - and even at that, I don't see how they could grow to dislike him so much in such a short span of time.

It seemed at least like Chloe didn't know what they had done, and that the guys with the guns and the training, would try to stop them, from the scene where they have the medic chick and the no-name military guy who somehow gave up his gun locked up. Could be that it was just Chloe though, she is also the girl who walked towards the place where a piece of the bulkhead had just been cut open when they were under attack..

Final words on the ep: If I was that military guy stranded with them, with a gun, I would never have given it up. I would have said: "Stop this mutiny right now, I have 15 bullets, who is the first to die?"

Its becoming a very interesting show, and these last two episodes have been far better than anything else that the Stargate series has put out. I feel like this is Stargate for adults, and not the slightly campy stuff that we have been seeing before. Sure, i liked Atlantis, and especially Ronan Dex, but this show comes off as far more authentic.

I definitely agree with this. :)