The Judging Eye V

[Happy Ent]

Nin'janjin and Cu'jara Cinmoi (fuck, do we ever need nicknames for them. Henceforth, I will be referring to them as Ninja and CC)

Jango and Cujo?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Here is my suggested and highly speculative sequence of events:

1. A Nonman called Cet'ingira is born in Viri.

*snip*

12. The Apocalypse begins. Cet'ingira is given the name Mekeritrig when his treachery comes to light.

Nerdanel - there's no evidence anywhere in the texts or anywhere else that even vaguely implies that Nin'janjin and Cet'ingara are the same (non)person. I mean, to be honest your whole argument is really really weak, considering that you just made the whole thing up, but that's the weakest link. I don't know why you want Mek and Nin to be the same Nonman so badly. Does it make any difference?

13. Mekeritrig makes use of his Dûnyain followers for spying, sabotage, and assassination. This has a large effect on the war but the Dûnyain remain undiscovered.

Except that when they arrive at Ishual they calm the young prince by telling him that they are Dunyain, which seems to imply to the prince that they will not harm him. This can't be true.

14. Mekeritrig (personally or by proxy) convinces the Bardic Priest that his pedophilic urges aren't sinful if everyone except he and his victim are dead. The path to happy non-sinning is thus to kill everyone when in the safety of Ishuäl.

The text explicitly states that the people in Ishual died from the plague.

15. Mekeritrig guides his Dûnyain to the conveniently-empty and undefended Ishuäl. Mekeritrig has set up the Dûnyain philosophy so that they will intentionally forget magic and start a breeding program

*snip*

21. Mekeritrig sends a carefully-calculated number of Sranc to nearly kill Kellhus and completely kill his followers at exactly the right barrow.

This requires an unbelievably amount of foresight, exactly the kind that Erratics shouldn't have. Simply put, there's no way this is accurate, and if it is, then I would stop reading Bakker, because it's just ridiculous. Some random Nonman set up a colony of humans who would improve themselves over time so that two thousand years in the future he'd be able to manipulate them into causing the Second Apocalypse? When the First Apocalypse isn't even over yet? Seriously?

22. Mekeritrig switches to hunting Sranc with humans. He uses the fake name Incariol and wears a hood to keep his identity from getting discovered. The Skin Eaters name him Cleric for his philosophical leanings.

*snip*

29. In a lull between fighting Sranc, Cleric sends Achamian a fake Seswatha dream that mentions the Sohonc Coffers.

You have to be taking the piss.

[Nerdanel]

Nerdanel - there's no evidence anywhere in the texts or anywhere else that even vaguely implies that Nin'janjin and Cet'ingara are the same (non)person. I mean, to be honest your whole argument is really really weak, considering that you just made the whole thing up, but that's the weakest link. I don't know why you want Mek and Nin to be the same Nonman so badly. Does it make any difference?

I suppose the Nin'janjin bit is the weakest part. However, people have presented Cleric = Nin'janjin arguments and they appear to have some credibility. When I read TJE, the one I hit on was Cleric = Mekeritrig. But then, Nin'janjin just vanishes from recorded history, leaving the door wide open for alternate identities, and some of Cleric's dialogue works well with the Nin'janjin idea.

By the way, we have a translated name of a Nonman king:

Sin'niroiha = First Among Peoples

Would a parent really name a baby thus or do you think that Sin'niroiha took the name upon becoming king?

Except that when they arrive at Ishual they calm the young prince by telling him that they are Dunyain, which seems to imply to the prince that they will not harm him. This can't be true.

In the language they are speaking, "Dûnyain" simply means "Truth". The people are telling the prince that they are the Truth, but the English text doesn't translate that word.

The text explicitly states that the people in Ishual died from the plague.

A very convenient plague that appeared from nowhere...

This requires an unbelievably amount of foresight, exactly the kind that Erratics shouldn't have. Simply put, there's no way this is accurate, and if it is, then I would stop reading Bakker, because it's just ridiculous. Some random Nonman set up a colony of humans who would improve themselves over time so that two thousand years in the future he'd be able to manipulate them into causing the Second Apocalypse? When the First Apocalypse isn't even over yet? Seriously?

The idea is that Mekeritrig wasn't planning for the Second Apocalypse. He simply wanted his social and biological experiment survive. It's possible that the true aim of the Dûnyain selective breeding is to make hybrids genetically similar enough to Nonmen so that Nonmen can breed with them and the Nonman race can be restored.

Not that Mekeritrig would have told that to his followers.

You have to be taking the piss.

Why? The mundane Seswatha dreams are anomalous in many ways. One interesting detail is that after Achamian dreams of Seswatha stubbing his toe, his toe aches all morning. The wound transference property doesn't appear to be in force with the real Seswatha dreams. Just imagine if Achamian got all of Seswatha's wounds after dreaming about Dagliash...

If you are willing to consider the possibility that the mundane Seswatha dreams aren't genuine, the question becomes: Who sent them and why? The "why" part is clearly to send Achamian on his quest, although the reasons behind that cannot be determined at this point. The "who" part is more tricky. For example, Kellhus couldn't have done it, as he would have had a hard time making the time period convincing and to the best of our knowledge has never been at Achamian's tower or in Cil-Aujas.

[Tears of Lys]

/snip

It's possible that the true aim of the Dûnyain selective breeding is to make hybrids genetically similar enough to Nonmen so that Nonmen can breed with them and the Nonman race can be restored.

/snip

As fascinating and entertaining as I find your theories (you really should write your own book, y'know,) the only one that bears any resemblance, IMHO, to Bakker's story, and may even have a kernel of truth to it, is the portion snipped above.

There's something funny going on with the Anasurimbors and their inability to produce a decent number of viable offspring with any human woman other than Esme, and even with her it's problematic.

Please don't take offense. I truly mean it when i say I love reading your theories. :)

[lokisnow]

I haven't followed this thread in MONTHS and we are still talking about that?

We need the new book Scott!

I had hoped it would be coming out within a year.

Sadly it's been a year since I read Judging Eye, and no new Bakker. I did get Neuropath in this timeframe, and that provides some interesting insights re: consciousness, religion, certainty, love, parenthood, etc into Kellhusian-Earwa it was not satisfying as actually getting book 2/5 would be. :( More please, and soon, don't go all GRRM on us, Scott. ;)

[red snow]

As fascinating and entertaining as I find your theories (you really should write your own book, y'know,) the only one that bears any resemblance, IMHO, to Bakker's story, and may even have a kernel of truth to it, is the portion snipped above.

There's something funny going on with the Anasurimbors and their inability to produce a decent number of viable offspring with any human woman other than Esme, and even with her it's problematic.

Please don't take offense. I truly mean it when i say I love reading your theories. :)

I think I've also mentioned somewhere on the thread before that the anusurimbor progeny problem could be reflecting that the Dunyain are bordering on being a different species from humans as it reflects what occurs when trying to create mules in that it often fails and the resulting mule is sterile. The lack of Maithanet's children backs this theory up.

The real mindfuck is if Nerdanel has it backwards; what if the Non-men are descended from humans? Think about it; humans may have embarked on the same/very similar process as the Dunyain millenia ago and with the extra time evolved/produced Non-men. The Non-men kept the lowly humans as their slaves but since they are distantly related, every now and then, it is possible for a Non-man/human hybrid. What would be interesting therefore would be to see if a Dunyain can breed with a Non-man.

[drl84]

I had hoped it would be coming out within a year.

Sadly it's been a year since I read Judging Eye, and no new Bakker. I did get Neuropath in this timeframe, and that provides some interesting insights re: consciousness, religion, certainty, love, parenthood, etc into Kellhusian-Earwa it was not satisfying as actually getting book 2/5 would be. :( More please, and soon, don't go all GRRM on us, Scott. ;)

White Luck is projected to be Spring 2011 (As of the new mass paperback of JE states). Disciple of the Dog may be handed in this year. That and Scott and his wife recently have had a change in their life. Scott seems to be a pretty dedicated person (Not to say GRRM is, but please lets not get into that 'tierd' argument) and I'd expect him to maybe take a slight break to adjust/work on other projects, then get back to the slog, so to speak.

[drl84]

I think I've also mentioned somewhere on the thread before that the anusurimbor progeny problem could be reflecting that the Dunyain are bordering on being a different species from humans as it reflects what occurs when trying to create mules in that it often fails and the resulting mule is sterile. The lack of Maithanet's children backs this theory up.

The real mindfuck is if Nerdanel has it backwards; what if the Non-men are descended from humans? Think about it; humans may have embarked on the same/very similar process as the Dunyain millenia ago and with the extra time evolved/produced Non-men. The Non-men kept the lowly humans as their slaves but since they are distantly related, every now and then, it is possible for a Non-man/human hybrid. What would be interesting therefore would be to see if a Dunyain can breed with a Non-man.

Could be. Then again I thought the one crowning accomplishment for the Non-men was that almost every one of them could perform magic? That or maybe I am just colouring my perspective from all the brief mentionings of the Non-men as being the tutors of man, and the greatest speakers of the word of God?

Why would this be important? Cause only one of the Royal Children (Ignoring Mimara) has the ability. All the others seem unable, even with Kayutas admitting as much to Sorweel at one point. The rest of the surviving children seem to be . . . damaged in one aspect or another.

If Kel is the end result of two Dunyain, then why would he settle for less? I'd have thought he might take a page out of his fathers' playbook and send some sort of booty call message back home. Sure, he might be killed, Kel could 'enlighten' said person(s) with either logic, or sorcery. Or is this part of the 'shortest path?'

[Kalbear]

Not all nonmen (or even a majority) were of the Few. It was a special ability amongst them too.

[drl84]

I stand corrected.

[Rhadamanth]

Only one of Kellhus' children is of the Few? I thought Serwa and Kelmomas were both of the Few.

Is there a rule against Maithanet having children since he is Shriah? If not then I'm not sure why he hasn't had any. Seems like it would be a good idea to have some more super-ish men and women around. Unless Moenghus forbade him from having any to protect Kellhus and the Thousandfold Thought. Kellhus probably enforced this too, if true. Esmi did wonder why Kellhus didn't put Maithanet in charge toward the end of TJE. Does Kellhus not trust Maithanet fully?

Has it been discussed why Kellhus told Esmi that the White-Luck will break against her (or something like that)? I was puzzled about this because I figured the WLW was supposed to take on Kellhus, but maybe he will lead a rebellion or something?

[nonman_erratic]

Just a random thought that occurred to me:

I had postulated in one of the original TJE threads that Incariol was the son of Nin Janjin.

What about the son of Cujara Cinmoi?

That would give special meaning to his "Where is your judgement now?" episode in Cil Aujas.

[AverageGuy]

I think I've also mentioned somewhere on the thread before that the anusurimbor progeny problem could be reflecting that the Dunyain are bordering on being a different species from humans as it reflects what occurs when trying to create mules in that it often fails and the resulting mule is sterile.

Maybe' date=' but then what's so special about Esme?

If Kel is the end result of two Dunyain, then why would he settle for less? I'd have thought he might take a page out of his fathers' playbook and send some sort of booty call message back home.

That Dunyain, if enlightened, might also decide to side with the Consult, which Kellhus seems to be against for some reason.

Also, am I the only one who assumes the Dunyain have become very different from what they were since locking themselves up in Ishual? Would modern-day Dunyain have even let a world-born Anasurimbor live, let alone breed? I've been under the impression the breeding program started later.

[drl84]

OK, Serwa is certainly of The Few...Is Kayutas not? Maybe he isn't, he's just got some really solid genes overall.

Do we know that Kelmomas is of The Few? I don't remember that we do. Something is up with him certainly, but I don't think that we know he is of The Few.

"Well, no matter," the Prince-Imperial continued. "I'll keep my end of the bargain at least." He winked as though at a joke. "I may not have the Gift of the Few, but I am my father's son, and I possess many of his strengths." (Bakker 173, Trade Paperback)

And Kelmomas? He maybe a psychotic kinslayer that has an unhealthy obsession with his mother, but I do not think he has the Gift of the Few, just for the main fact that he cannot seewhen his father returns, nor see his mark. But then again, the only time we do see any direct contact is when Kel returns and shacks up with Esmenet; Kelmomas is listening to the exchange and is only really focused on what Esmenet says.

[Curethan]

Well I don't know if we should totally blame Kellhus for his crazy children. Esme is a lil late in the child bearing stakes methinks (well, she was referred to as an ageing whore in PON, I think?) plus she had been wearing the contraceptive charm for a long while plus she had a good dose of synthese jizz from aurang and that skinspy, and who knows what kind of health effects that might have.

Also, the anasurimbor line already possesses non-man genetic material from way back and cannot be considered prolific if Kellhus is the only scion after two thousand years of breeding where his genetic line would certainly have been prized. I mean if ur breeding racehorses or whatever, you strive for quantity of progeny and then use the best of that. Admittedly the dunyain breeding process is highly selective and deadly to 'failures', but the expectantion of such a program that the anasurimbor bloodline would have been spread through the dunyain if each generation produced more than one viable subject per generation. I think that Kellhus' apparent lack of siblings and 'special' significance idicates that his 'breeding difficulties' are not unique in his bloodline. Indeed I would suggest that in Ishual he would only have one child left by this stage, probably his daughter (who happens to be of the Few).

Re Nerdanel's theory, its bravura apophenia in my opinion, I can't imagine Mekeretig turning out to be Mary-Sue.

[Shryke]

By "Old Whore" I think she meant she was in her late 20s or something at most.

[Ski the Swift]

By "Old Whore" I think she meant she was in her late 20s or something at most.

I was under the impression that she was close to Akka's age throughout PoN.

[Curethan]

Either way it ain't quite the same as nowadays, 30 odd is late to start breeding in a society that knows little medicine.

I consider the other factors to be larger and more likely impediments though.

[Nerdanel]

There's a good chance Esmenet has Nonman blood too. She is beautiful and intelligent with very good physical abilities. And her mother was a witch. I think Esmenet might be one of the Few too, based on a passage about her mother refusing to teach her witchcraft. It wasn't about Esmenet not being one of the Few, it was about stones hurting less than being burned on a stake.

Kelmomas is one of the Few. I remember that there was a quote from his POV somewhere in TJE that confirmed it. He just hasn't told anyone about it.

I don't think the idea that Nonmen are the result of a breeding program is very plausible. It would have been before the start of the recorded Nonman history, and the Nonmen were utterly surprised when the first case of interbreeding happened. Then there are questions like why color vision would get selected out. Rather, it could be that Nonmen are the Eärwan equivalent of fallen angels. The Tusk says that the Nonmen are all damned, which would fit with that.

- Yes. Our age has passed. Cil-Aujas has fallen. Fallen into darkness.

- No. Not darkness...

Hell.

Damnation, cousin. How? How could we forget?

- Not i. I have never forgotten...

That's an interesting discussion...

More real world religion stuff:

Kellhus's symbol, the Circumfix, looks suspiciously like an upside-down pentagram, at least in the simpler wire versions. The Tusk, on the other hand, if it curves enough, can look like number six. Characters in TJE have been wearing multiple tusks in their clothes. Of particular note is that in the last Condia chapter Sorweel sees Kellhus having a row of three red tusks in the hem of his robe... 666...

Well, I've been saying that Kellhus is the Antichrist character. More exactly, I'd say that Kellhus is the Beast, Esmenet is the Whore of Babylon, Maithanet is the False Prophet, and Kelmomas is the Little Horn. Among other things, I expect that seals like the one sealing the Wight-in-the-Mountain will get broken during the course of the story.

By the way, I'm starting to get the Gnostic vibe from the story. If Kellhus is truly the God-in-the-small like he claims, that's not a good thing, considering that he is a tyrant. But the God-in-the-small thing doesn't look so impossible based on what we know about the God of Eärwa. Also, note how the Andiamine Heights and the new torture chambers beneath it form an analogue to Dante's Heaven and Hell, even down to the basic geometrical shape.

[Galactus]

Either way it ain't quite the same as nowadays, 30 odd is late to start breeding in a society that knows little medicine.

Early 30's is late, but not *impossibly* late. Median age of first marriage in late-medieval and early-modern Europe was second half of the 20's. This reduces fertility significantly than if you marry in your teens, but it's more a matter of the number of children (and their rate of survival) than anything else.