Author Bloopers?

[The Iceman of the North]

It's a problem for all of Randland (and, for that matter, all of Westeros, and Middle-Earth too). It's just one of those things you need to handwave about a lot of epic fantasies.

Yeah, eventually I had to do that, but this was the first time I encountered this issue (or at least reacted to it). Language seems to be a major problem for most authors.

[Wastrel]

It's a problem for all of Randland (and, for that matter, all of Westeros, and Middle-Earth too). It's just one of those things you need to handwave about a lot of epic fantasies.

I'm not sure it really applies to Middle-Earth, actually. First, the area under discussion is a LOT smaller. Second, there's no reason to think that Westron was unchanged during that period. It's true that it's mutually intelligable throughout the area, but this is probably because the variety of Gondor is just so prestigious that people try to emulate it. We don't have historical Westron samples to compare to, I don't think, so we don't know how quickly it changes, but it certainly DOES change (in that it's clearly different from Adunaic). Third, not everybody speaks it - in Rohan and Rhovanion and most of Harad they speak other languages, and so do the Dunlendings and the Drug.

Tolkien's languages may change more slowly than our languages, yes, but by the normal methods, and not beyond believability - especially as he explicitly adopts a not-entirely-scientific approach to language change.

I think this is far less a problem than in Randland, where no serious thought seems to have gone into the languge aspect at all.

[Ran]

There's been no meaningful contact between Gondor and the Shire for umpteen hundreds of years. It's like expecting German and Swedish to be mutually intelligible. I mean, Tolkien was obviously way more of an expert than I am on language change, but I think even he had to handwave things a bit to explain the very close mutual intelligibility between these languages. Especially as Westron can't even take the place of Latin as the "learned language" -- that's Sindarin, I think.

The distance from the Shire to Gondor is approximately the same as the distance from England to Venice or thereabouts. How many different languages does one encounter in that space, and are the languages in the two end points the same?

Perhaps not the best example, but in any case, color me skeptical. Tolkien basically handwaved a very static language with no real reason, so that Shirefolk could talk with Dalefolk could talk with Gondorians.

It's absolutely true that Tolkien does have other languages in the setting, of course. But the position of the Common Tongue as a widely unchanging, mutually intelligible language across the whole of Middle-Earth is a real stretch.

[Werthead]

I'm reading a not-terribly-well-thought-out alternate history right now. The latest "huh?": the United Nations is apparently an active political force in the book's 21st century. Why is this a huh? Because the alternate history involves Germany winning World War I and World War II never occurring. Where did the United Nations come from? I have no idea.

Assuming in the book that the League of Nations was junked for being toothless and useless (as it was in real life), the term 'United Nations' does seem like an obvious alternative for a world-spanning body. In fact, Roosevelt ganked it from Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, which it was used to refer to the 'allies' at the Battle of Waterloo, and it's possible that in the alt-history the term was also nicked from the same source.

It's a bit of a stretch but I could accept it. The problem with alt-histories is that when they use original terminology for everyday objects it's just jarring. In Sophia McDougall's Romanitas books she calls televisions 'longdictors' and after a while it just gets fricking annoying.

[Myrddin]

Yeah, eventually I had to do that, but this was the first time I encountered this issue (or at least reacted to it). Language seems to be a major problem for most authors.

I've of two minds about language in stories (any fiction).

On the one hand, it's more realistic to have a character go to a new place and not be able to speak the local dialect.

On the other hand, having to introduce new characters just to act as interpreters (or contrive some reason for the main character to know all languages he/she encounters) can bog down the story.

If an author can easily create credible reasons for the characters to know other languages, great. If not, I prefer the author waving the Babble pen over the world and let them all speak the same thing.

The better option is having a common tongue that makes sense (like Latin in the Middle Ages or I guess English these days). Having that language just called Common Tongue is lazy, though. :)

It all comes down to this: What is more important: Story or realistic linguistics?

[wolverine]

I agree up to a point, but it's almost possible to truly address the fact that we're talking about a wholly seperate world. I mean, fine, change the most obvious things, but past events dictate everything about us, up to and including our language. take the crossbow, for instance. I'm guessing that the name CROSSbow came in part from the religious cross*. Assume that you're dealing with a world without Christianity. Why would crosses have anything really special about them? But, at the same time, how would your novel be better served: just calling it crossbow and swallowing the inconsistency, or calling it a Spring Bow? Yeah, one kinda undermines the world, but if we go too far with the other it'll all be impossible to relate to/understand from our perspective.

*I know absolutely nothing about the origins of the term crossbow, and if - as is decently probable - it has nothing to do with religion, I'm confident that you can substitute your own example and understand my point.

Interesting to me that you brought this up since Abercrombie uses the term "flatbow" in place of "crossbow."

This led to a misconception of what he was talking about for me since a flatbow is actually a type of long bow, and not a crossbow at all in my understanding of the word. I know in certain places it has taken on that meaning, but to me a flatbow is a long bow with a rectangular cross section of the limbs.

[MinDonner]

Assuming in the book that the League of Nations was junked for being toothless and useless (as it was in real life), the term 'United Nations' does seem like an obvious alternative for a world-spanning body. In fact, Roosevelt ganked it from Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, which it was used to refer to the 'allies' at the Battle of Waterloo, and it's possible that in the alt-history the term was also nicked from the same source.

...but the League of Nations wasn't set up until after (and as a direct result of) WW1 anyway, so with a different outcome, why would there even have been such an organisation after all? Unless... did Woodrow Wilson come in on the side of the Germans, which is why they won?

[Greywolf2375]

One thing that has bothered me in many books is the authors treatment of and with horses. You're having the expert rider teach the newbie to grip the horse with what part of your legs - do you want them to pop off like a dandelions head?? The horse can run father & faster than a Mearas how? Having to stop and have a horse reshod, never!!

[Werthead]

...but the League of Nations wasn't set up until after (and as a direct result of) WW1 anyway, so with a different outcome, why would there even have been such an organisation after all? Unless... did Woodrow Wilson come in on the side of the Germans, which is why they won?

This is what I thought happened. Wasn't this the Turtledove alt-universe where Germany won WWI with assistance from the USA (which in this timeline had never reconciled with the South, and the CSA had fought on the side of Britain and France)? And Wilson and the Kaiser basically created a version of the League of Nations themselves?

Or is this a different set of books altogether?

[Ran]

Having to stop and have a horse reshod, never!!

Jordan has Lan's arrival in Altara delayed by having to get his warhorse reshoed after he threw one. Heh.

Judith Tarr has had a number of excellent posts with a sort of "Horses for Dummies/Writers" theme to them.

[Shryke]

I've of two minds about language in stories (any fiction).

On the one hand, it's more realistic to have a character go to a new place and not be able to speak the local dialect.

On the other hand, having to introduce new characters just to act as interpreters (or contrive some reason for the main character to know all languages he/she encounters) can bog down the story.

If an author can easily create credible reasons for the characters to know other languages, great. If not, I prefer the author waving the Babble pen over the world and let them all speak the same thing.

The better option is having a common tongue that makes sense (like Latin in the Middle Ages or I guess English these days). Having that language just called Common Tongue is lazy, though. :)

It all comes down to this: What is more important: Story or realistic linguistics?

I agree. I notice it especially with WOT.

But at some point, you just gotta go "Fuck it, the story works cleaner with them all speaking the same language" and just roll with it.

[Werthead]

Jordan has Lan's arrival in Altara delayed by having to get his warhorse reshoed after he threw one. Heh.

Judith Tarr has had a number of excellent posts with a sort of "Horses for Dummies/Writers" theme to them.

Not to mention Diana Wynne-Jones Tough Guide to Fantasyland, which should be required reading for all writers of epic fantasy. The bit about horses breeding by pollination because they're all proud stallions rather than mares is particularly good.

[ambyr]

This is what I thought happened. Wasn't this the Turtledove alt-universe where Germany won WWI with assistance from the USA (which in this timeline had never reconciled with the South, and the CSA had fought on the side of Britain and France)? And Wilson and the Kaiser basically created a version of the League of Nations themselves?

Or is this a different set of books altogether?

Different books. Very unclear how, exactly, the Germans won WWI; the back cover says "the United States brokered a deal that ended World War I," and the book never really expands on that, just says America stayed neutral in WWI and "Woodrow Wilson . . . cut a deal between Berlin and London." The war apparently ended in 1915.

Also of note are mentions of the "Soviets" as an active political force in the 21st century, so apparently the February Revolution went along as normal despite Russia not being embroiled in a lengthy, costly war. Or maybe it happened later; dunno. The author's main goal was to have the Ottoman Empire remain an active force into the 21st century. Other than that, the world's culture and geopolitics remain remarkably unchanged from reality (well, except for the whole U.S.S.R. not collapsing). Everyone still plays Nintendo games, goes to the U.S. for college, wears French designer clothes, and buys cheap furniture at Ikea. Oh, the IMF still exists, too.

[Greywolf2375]

Not to mention Diana Wynne-Jones Tough Guide to Fantasyland, which should be required reading for all writers of epic fantasy. The bit about horses breeding by pollination because they're all proud stallions rather than mares is particularly good.

Interesting, might have to take a look at that and, well, give WoT another shot.

[Poobah]

goes to the U.S. for college

There are people who can afford American university bills?

[Ormond]

There are people who can afford American university bills?

There are obviously lots of people who somehow afford American university bills, because every American institution of higher education I know about seems to have a lot of foreign students these days. And that's NOT just at the graduate level where the university itself provides teaching or research assistantships that usually cover tuition. There are undergraduates from many other places. I have undergraduate students from the UK, Togo, Benin, Gabon, and Nepal in classes right now, and have had them from many other countries.

(The UK students I have now are on our men's soccer team and may be getting some athletic scholarship type of financial aid.)

[Liadin]

I for one would really like to see fantasy writers take a more realistic approach to languages, mostly because I'm very interested in them and have traveled a lot. It wouldn't have to hurt the plot; so many of the characters involved are upper-class or well-educated anyway, such that it would be believable to find common languages for them (the equivalent of Latin, French, or English in Europe, depending which era you look at). Even farmboy heroes, who aren't likely to speak other languages, usually wind up interacting with noblemen when they go to other countries, and these people could realistically be said to speak the hero's language. I'm always thrown not just by the geographic distances across which fantasy authors have their characters speak the same language, but the cultural differences.... quasi-England and quasi-Japan speaking the same language doesn't work for me.

Although that said, it's even worse when an author creates language differences, then hand-waves them away in ridiculous ways (often by having a character go from not knowing a word to fluent in about 2 weeks).

[Nerdanel]

In case this isn't off-topic for this thread, I've been following John C. Wright's blog with the fascination one gives to an ongoing trainwreck. Here's a recent quote:

In Freudian terms, the Left represents only a pure 'Id' impulse, what Plato called the Appetitive Soul; at least one wing of the Right represents what Freud (incorrectly to the point of slander, in my opinion) called the 'Ego', but which Plato called the 'Thymos', the passionate or honor-craving soul; whereas the Church, the enemy of the World, represents what Freud (incorrectly to the point of slander, in my opinion) called the Superego, what Christians call the Conscience. (Frued's slander here was that the conscience was not an organ of perception of moral reality, but merely an aggregation of social conventions imprinted into an unselfaware yet governing habit of shame.)

I wonder how much of that strawman will end up in his more recent novels...

And something that is definitely on-topic: Oliver Johnson fell in The Forging of the Shadows right into the myth that when a grown man is castrated, his voice gets high-pitched. The trilogy in question also had some minor but annoying continuity errors, and could definitely have benefited from better editing.

[Galactus]

I am sure that someone could come up with an example of a word whose etymological origin goes back to a religious or cultural term from our world, but which it would be hard to do without using, even if one's fantasy world didn't have those same cultures or religions.

A LOT of expressions tends to be carried over without thought, I know I've seen "The writing on the wall" at least once, for instance. (Which is of course a biblical reference)

[Rakka]

An author who makes gross errors when writing a book set in a certain time in a certain culture, or not even attempting to be historically authentic while still selling the book as "historical fantasy" should be flogged. There is no excuse for being so lazy with research that readers with even cursory knowledge of the period will have their suspension of disbelief is dropped at every second page by the ridiculous setting. If you can't be arsed to make the basic research of life in Iron Age, pre-crusade Finland, why the hell do you want to push the book as fantasy set in Iron Age Finland?

Seriously. 20 years to write a book and still ending up with one featuring inns, prominent field farming, carriages, knitted sweaters and pseudo-vikings with cow horn helmets? What's she been studying for background information, Donald Duck stories? Writing a general YA fantasy with those features? Wouldn't mind at all. Wouldn't pick it up from the library either, though. Actively marketing the book as "fantasy set in ancient Finland"? Fails so hard that it's a close thing the bedroom wall isn't dented at the moment. Of course, I'm biased in that I know something about the period in question and happen to be fairly nitpicky when it comes to details, but still.